BLO or oiled wood

At last, I've finally found a pic that will illustrate a long time question;

I've got an enfield or two that looks like they've been rubbed with oil, ie it looks like raw wood with an oily feel; and then I've got the rest of my enfields with a conspicuously thick/layered BLO finish, ie there's an obvious layer of shiny finish over the wood that resembles a varnish.

The trials T sniper for sale here in quartermasters stores has the bare/oiled wood appearance, and this is supposed to be truly authentic. Military Surplus Collectors Forums.

So, whats going on with this bare wood look? Why aren't they showing the classic BLO finish? It seems to me, and experience proved it, that the BLO finish protects the wood against weather, water and even light knocks in a way that oily bare wood doesn't begin to achieve.

Are they simply partially BLO'd and need more coats?
Did they miss out on BLO completely, by accident?
Is it correct for an enfield from the factory to have this bare look, as opposed to rifles made from parts like the JJCo 's , many of which/if not all, have the bare wood look.

Mainly I'm wondering if my bare look rifles should be getting about 6 coats of BLO to properly protect them?

thanks, enquiring minds must know...:confused:

The basic difference between boiled and raw linseed oil is that the boiled variety dries more quickly. As a result, it penetrates the wood less deeply and, being mostly on the surface, is easily scratched or worn off. For rough battlefield service, it's better to have the oil in the wood, rather than on top of it. Scratches and wear that would bring a boiled oil surface finish down to bare, unoiled wood have little actual effect on the deeper raw oil finish.

I think you've confused the thick external appearance of the boiled oil surface finish with the internal protection provided by the deeper penetration of raw oil, which leaves very little or no visible surface film and has the added benefit of being easily renewed by a quick application of more raw oil, with no need for any drying time.

If you want a shiny external surface finish giving reasonable protection from light rain and mild handling damage, boiled linseed will certainly provide it. If you want a classic deep, internal finish appropriate for battlefield use, raw linseed is the better choice.

FWIW, a correct raw linseed oil finish does not look or feel oily or slick. Any oil that hasn't penetrated in a few hours should be wiped off to prevent it from drying on the surface (which it would do in a few days). If you encounter an oily feeling on a classic battle rifle's wood, it's more likely that some preservative grease like cosmoline was slathered over the entire arm for storage and not thoroughly removed.

The furniture or stocks were hot dipped in a tank of raw linseed oil during manufacture and during WWII and some time after the war only raw linseed oil was issued and applied by the troops on Enfield stocks.

Also as a side note it took oil or coal to heat the raw linseed oil to process it into boiled linseed oil and the fuel was needed elsewhere for the war effort.

The baking of white bread made from bleached flour was also banned from being made in England during the war, as the nutritional value of the bread was not worth the fuel used to make it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nseedoil-1.jpg

You now know the raw naked truth ;)

Please note the only reason Parashooter got here first was because my two dyslexic fingers were holding me back and because Parashooter doesn’t spell Privi Partizan with a letter y. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

Please note the only reason Parashooter got here first was because my two dyslexic fingers were holding me back and because Parashooter doesn’t spell Privi Partizan with a letter y. :D

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Easy mistake to make - anyone could spell 'party' with Y
Partyzan sounds good to me !!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Easy mistake to make - anyone could spell 'party' with Y
Partyzan sounds good to me !!!

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I never thought to spell it that way, I spelled it “Privy Partisan”.

Your spelling has more “colour”.

My spelling has more “odour” :yikes:

This is fun
>>Please note the only reason Parashooter got here first was because my two dyslexic fingers were holding me back and because Parashooter doesn’t spell Privi Partizan with a letter y.<<<

Check your spelling again before Parashooter catches you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ireload2

This is fun
>>Please note the only reason Parashooter got here first was because my two dyslexic fingers were holding me back and because Parashooter doesn’t spell Privi Partizan with a letter y.<<<

Check your spelling again before Parashooter catches you.

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Microsoft Word spell checker changes Privi to Privy and Mauser to Mouser, do you have a spell checker with a firearms word background library.

Besides I like cut and paste soooooo much better :thup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ltthrust-1.jpg

>>> do you have a spell checker with a firearms word background library.<<<

No I have box of PPU ammo by my keyboard.
Notice the spelling.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/142504-1.jpg

When it comes to oiling or greasing cartridge cases and Serbian ammunition………….

I’m NEVER wrong :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...artizanb-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ireload2

>>> do you have a spell checker with a firearms word background library.<<<

No I have box of PPU ammo by my keyboard.
Notice the spelling.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/142504-1.jpg

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Sure I read somewhere that the Prvi Partizan ammunition was a reduced load especially for use in 'oiled chambers' whilst the Privi Partizan was the 'real Mcoy' with a full 'loading' and for 'dry' chambers.
Could it be true ?

To answer the original question - Ed is right, they were originally treated with raw linseed oil.
An absolutly mint unused rifle will have a raw matt unfinised surface to the woodwork - but depending on the amount of use and the age of the rifle the surface becomes smoother and filled with subsequent applications of oil and finger grease etc. which can give the appearance of a thin BLO oil finish.
A good approximation of an aged finish can be made with some fine steel wool and wiped off applications of BLO over the RLO.
A varnished finish (apart from commercial rifles) means someone has tarted it up afterwards.

This is all great guys, many thanks for the peace of mind, now I actually understand the difference between blo and an rlo finished rifle, cheers R

Edward Horton
I have always wondered, how and what finish was applied to the No.4’s wood (furniture) during its production life (at time of manufacture or FTR). Can you tell me what is the source of your information is on dipping the No.4’s furniture in hot (temp??) raw linseed oil??? Was BLO used post war?? Do you know what was applied to the No.1, raw or boiled, I have conflicting answers to this one and nobody has given a source.

Speaking of sources, thank you for posting A.C.I. 1148, 25/9/40, now do you have a copy of A.C.I. 88 or any other A.C.I.s that refer to wood finishing.

I have a copy of “Instructions For Armourers” , 1931 (from you I think) and the only thing I can find on finish for furniture is on page 6, Sec.2, Par.3 and it only states “it should be well rubber with oil”, but it does not state what kind of oil.

I can not find anything in Skennerton, Stratton or Reynolds, (but I could have missed somthing).

Thank you very much for any information you can give.

45B20

45B20

The best current source on confirming the hot dipping the stocks in raw linseed oil came in this forum from Peter Laidler the British Armourer and author. Mr. Laidler stated during the yearly teardown inspections the stocks were left soaking in a hot tank of raw linseed oil overnight.

Hot dipping in raw linseed oil was used during the manufacture of the furniture or stocks and later by the Armourers themselves during maintenance. Real actual boiled linseed oil “may or might” have been issued and applied prior to WWII (ACI 88??) or sometime after the war by the troops as a surface treatment but this is unconfirmed.

Raw linseed oil was used on American stocks up until 1943 when a switch to Tung oil was made because of better protection against water.

As Parashooter stated also raw linseed oil was used so it would penetrate deeply into the wood to protect and stabilize the wood, boiled linseed oil does NOT penetrate as deeply as raw linseed oil does and real BLO is a surface treatment.

Real actual boiled linseed oil is heated in a sealed vat which polymerizes the oil causing it to form long interlocking molecular chains (plasticisizes the oil like locking your fingers together on both hands) this makes the oil more waterproof.

Modern (fake) BLO is not boiled and just has resins add to thicken the oil and dryers added to make it dry more quickly, modern BLO is NOT polymerized or plasticisized and does not protect as well as old fashioned real boiled linseed oil.

I have an unissued No.1 that was FTR in 1953 that has raw linseed oil applied to it and nothing else, I’m not sure of the dates when boiled linseed may or might have been used or applied.

The triple mix of “raw” linseed oil, beeswax and turpentine was used during the American civil war as cosmoline for storage, as protection during use and as furniture polish by the soldiers wives. ;)

Please NOTE the A.C.I proceeding or just prior to A.C.I. No.1148 dated 29/9/40 Preservation of woodwork of Rifles was the painting of all metal areas below the wood line with the fore stocks no longer being packed with red mineral jelly (Vaseline).

The Enfield rifles that were painted with green primer were not required to be torn completely down at the yearly inspections during overseas war time use (if it ain’t broke don’t fix it) and the troops were required to oil their own stocks with the raw linseed oil.

This explains the “why” of A.C.I. No.1148 dated 29/9/40 Preservation of woodwork of Rifles because the armourers no longer stripped the rifles yearly and applied or hot dipped the stocks in raw linseed oil.

I have a Remington 03A3 with very dry wood - and a splatter of white paint flecks where someone's room painting spotted onto the woodwork of the rifle. I need to get the dots of paint off but the wood is dry enough that I'm concerned that any solvent will spot darken the wood where the paint is removed. It was suggested to use a 50/50 mix of turpentine and BLO to get the paint off and treat the dry wood. What thinks all here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle-man

I have a Remington 03A3 with very dry wood - and a splatter of white paint flecks where someone's room painting spotted onto the woodwork of the rifle. I need to get the dots of paint off but the wood is dry enough that I'm concerned that any solvent will spot darken the wood where the paint is removed. It was suggested to use a 50/50 mix of turpentine and BLO to get the paint off and treat the dry wood. What thinks all here?

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Depending on the date of your 03-A3 RLO or raw linseed oil or Tung oil could have been applied when it was made, the U.S. started using Tung oil in 1943.

There is only one place I know of that sells real pure Tung oil and that is at this link......Environmentally Friendly Paint - Real Milk Paint ® everything else on the market presently in nothing more than a wiping varnish no matter what the label tells you (read the msds sheet on each product)

A conservator in a museum to clean an antique firearm stock would use a 50/50 mix of raw linseed oil and turpentine, a soft cotton cloth and a heat lamp to help sweat any impurities to the surface. The metal parts of the gun would be cleaned with pure raw olive oil and a soft cloth and possibly a soft bristled tooth brush to lightly scrub some areas.

At the far end of the Bubba extreme spectrum some people would put the stock in the dish washer.

What lies in the middle is to determine what type of paint is on your stock and how badly you want to remove it. At repair level shops and at overhaul your stock if needed would be scraped or sanded as needed to return it to serviceable condition.

NOTE: Your rifle would not pass military inspection at any level with paint on it and something would have been done to it to remove the paint. Scraping seals the pores and surface of the wood and sanding opens the pores of the wood (What type surface do you need to match?)

"...the classic BLO finish..." BLO doesn't give a shiney finish. The classic BLO finish is flat. If it's shiney, something else has been put on over it. Could well be a varnish. It doesn't remove paint spots either. Use any paint remover. Try some fine steel wool first. Depends on the size of the paint flecks though.
"...'oiled chambers'..." No such thing. Chambers are never left oiled when shooting any firearm with any ammo. Causes excessive pressure. Oil doesn't compress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunray

BLO doesn't give a shiney finish. The classic BLO finish is flat. If it's shiney, something else has been put on over it.

"...'oiled chambers'..." No such thing. Chambers are never left oiled when shooting any firearm with any ammo.

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The classic "BLO" finish is flat because it was applied by people who knew how to do it and when to stop. As applied by most amateurs today, it's distressingly shiny - without the addition of anything other than too much "BLO" allowed to dry on the surface.

Chambers (and bores) are frequently left oiled by shooters who neglect to remove the oil before firing - and combatants who don't have the leisure to do so. A few small arms require oiled chambers and/or cartridges.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ag42lube-1.gif

(If spelling counts, you might want to look up shiny.)

>>>When it comes to oiling or greasing cartridge cases <<<

Sure you are wrong, you grease cartridge cases all the time.

Since you THINK you are never wrong please read the warning signs on both the ammo box and the outhouse. You should never be left alone with ammunition or in two story structures. https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Outhouse-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

When it comes to oiling or greasing cartridge cases and Serbian ammunition………….

I’m NEVER wrong :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...artizanb-1.jpg

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I prefer American instructions manuals and not instructions written for a Swedish rifle that needed greased cartridges in order to cycle and function due to an inadequate designed gas system.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oilcover-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nchamber-1.jpg

But then again this is a Enfield forum so lets use instructions written for the Enfield rifle.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../drybore-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ssstrain-1.jpg

And then we have the warnings in our American reloading manuals

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../oillube-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...can0048a-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by ireload2

>>>When it comes to oiling or greasing cartridge cases <<<

Sure you are wrong, you grease cartridge cases all the time.

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er...you might grease your cartridges, allow me to stand about 30 feet behind you when firing, it's always entertaining but the blood puts me off me lunch.
all the best with your shooting.

The AG42 reference is in response to Sunray's assertion that, "Chambers are never left oiled when shooting any firearm with any ammo."

"Never" and "any" cover a lot of territory - sometimes more than may be justified by verifiable information.

Thank you parashooter for bringing a Swedish semiauto into this posting, I was awarded a warning and three points by a moderator for my “outrageous” reply with a Springfield M1A, an Enfield and warnings from reloading manuals about oil and grease in your chambers.

Something smells bad here and I wasn’t the one who brought the “greasy” subject up but I also don’t see three points added to your name Parashooter, Sunrays or RJW NZ.

Could it be the moderator has an ax to grind or maybe he just doesn’t understand oil and excessive bolt thrust and my reply is more incorrect than the other comments made here..

I suspect that by now the moderators here understand a fair bit about lube and bolt thrust. They probably even agree with your aversion to the idea of lubed cases - but they're also human and it may seem to them we're "beating a dead horse" here by re-posting the same stuff over and over again.

I tried opening a new thread on the subject, with a report on my latest little test case - but that one quickly degenerated into a transatlantic slugfest about military history. Yikes!

It's probably time to give the whole subject a long rest. Folks are probably tired of seeing what we've all repeated too often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

we're "beating a dead horse" here by re-posting the same stuff over and over again.

It's probably time to give the whole subject a long rest. Folks are probably tired of seeing what we've all repeated too often.

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This poor bloke asked about "BLO or oiled wood "and gets his thread hijacked. Same names, same crap. Just a different forum. What a shame.

Danny

If I may get a question in before the end of this oiled chamber drama.

At page 94 of Reyolds Lee Enfield Rifle, and I copy exactly......


.......the necessary force varied from 4 to 4-3/4 tons per square inch with bullets lubricated in the Service manner, and from 5-3/4 to 7-3/4 tons when not lubricated. (Note: Service manner means lightly oiled) .......end quote


Does this mean cartridges were lightly oiled in service?

Does the reduced bore friction that this paragraph refers to means lightly oiled ammunition is easier/less wearing on the bore than dry.

The book can be downloaded from one of the stickys here if anyone wants to read the whole lot.

Big Ball Bag

First off you have the Reynolds book to read because I donated it and 90% of all the new Enfield material in Badgers reference library and I would like to make this point very clear, Badger asked if he could use my material for download.

The moderator who wrote me up in this thread did not ask if he could display my material at his website and we had a heated “discussion” about it and his opinion and decision to write me up here is very questionable and smells of revenge.

As to your question about Reynolds statement:

4 to 4-3/4 tons per square inch with bullets lubricated in the Service manner, and from 5-3/4 to 7-3/4 tons when not lubricated.

This passage means exactly that, IF the BULLETS were lubricated the pressures were lower, the cases were NOT lubricated. This is why I put the warnings in my post, lubricating the case causes excess bolt thrust which *damages your firearms.

*DO NOT lubricate the chamber or the cartridge case when firing commercially loaded or Military surplus ammunition and reloaded ammunition that has been full length resized. These three types of ammunition if the case or chamber is lubricated will not grip the chamber walls and the case will slam into the bolt face with over twice the force the firearm was designed to receive and damage the firearm.

Also please note that military rifles have MORE or LONGER headspace than commercial rifles and a lubricated case has twice the distance to build up speed before slamming into the bolt face and do even MORE damage to your Enfield rifle.

There is a very good reason why the ammunition manufactures, firearms manufactures and the reloading manuals tell you NOT to grease or oil your chamber and ammunition because of the excess bolt thrust and it is NOT up to ANY individual on the internet to tell you to ignore these warnings.

This excess bolt thrust is very easy to visualize, just think of driving a metal stake into the ground and think about how the top of the stake mushrooms and flattens out every time you hit the top of the stake. Anyone who tells you greasing or oiling the case does not hurt anything needs to hit their fingers a few times when hammering nails and "bolt thrust" will have more meaning.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../06/217a-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06/216ab-1.jpg

The following was written in 1946 about the Enfield rifle and excess bolt thrust, it was true in 1946 and it is true to this day.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ssstrain-1.jpg

While it's certainly true that a lubricated case or chamber may produce some increased bolt thrust, my friend Ed may be mistaken about the mechanics involved when he says a lubed case ". . . will slam into the bolt face with over twice the force the firearm was designed to receive . . ."

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...paceprot-1.jpg

In actual practice when we have some cartridge end-play, a lubed case moves back against the bolt face at relatively low speed and pressure, since the major impediment to doing so is friction of primer in pocket. As most handloaders know, it normally doesn't take much force to seat a primer. Think about it.

This effect is easy to demonstrate by firing some low-pressure loads that have a bit of end-play when chambered. If case and chamber are dry, the primer will protrude after firing - but if some effective lube is present, this same mild load will re-seat the primer and leave it flush with the case head. Because this kind of low pressure happens very early in the powder burn with a full charge, it's probably erroneous to think of the lubed case as slamming back against the bolt face with significant force.

It's more likely that the reason for greater thrust with lubed cases is that dry cases allow some of the energy from the powder to be expended in stretching brass ahead of the web. Any energy spent stretching brass doesn't get passed to the bolt face (or the bullet, since this is one of those Newtonian equal-opposite deals).

It would be easy to assemble a collection of dire warnings arising from beliefs that didn't turn out to be quite accurate, perhaps starting with "If you sail too far, you'll fall off the edge of the Earth." From what I've observed personally, the many familiar warnings about the extreme dangers of lubed cases or chambers may be in the same category. Still, most of us are more cautious than Chris Columbus and prefer the security of safe harbor to sailing uncharted seas.

The only apparent advantage of lubed cases in Lee-Enfields is significantly increased case life. Since cases are still reasonably cheap and the signs of incipient failure fairly obvious, only those somehow compelled to extract maximum possible life from each case are likely to experience enough benefit from lubricating them to justify the possibility of increased wear on bolt and receiver.

There is nothing inaccurate about what I have said about bolt thrust Parashooter, when you recommended lubing cases in your “Headspace 101” YOU did NOT list any loads and at what pressures were safe to shoot lubed cases. (Do you even know what pressure is safe?) YOU also removed it from your Headspace 101 and added the coiled nylon around the rim trick in lieu of oiled ammunition.

You can’t have it both ways Parashooter you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims that it is a safe practice or that it is approved by any current firearms manufacture or reloading manual.

You did NOT warn anyone to NEVER shoot fully loaded factory, military or reloaded ammunition in ANY firearm with a lubed or oil chamber.

In “Cases and Enfields and lube - Oh my!” YOU did NOT tell anyone the reason no additional bolt thrust was delivered to the bolt face was because the cases were head spacing on the shoulder and the rear of the case was in firm contact with the bolt face.

We BOTH have neglected the fact that NO ONE complains about bolt thrust on fire formed cases that are neck sized only and the rear of the case is also touching the bolt face.

The warnings in the manuals are real and I damaged a rifle by lubing cases and I no longer do it, and I was told NOT to do it by Remington Arms Company.

Below is a protective cup it represents the bolt face of a rifle with a dry and oil free chamber.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Below is a Golf club driver, it represents bolt thrust and an oily chamber.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Now how many of you people are going to let me swing the driver as hard as I can and hit you in the groin, this represents shooting fully loaded ammunition in an oily chamber and excessive bolt thrust.

Again one more time, excessive bolt thrust from an oiled or greasy chamber. :yikes:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

And bolt thrust from a clean dry chamber. :thup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

NO one has the right to tell you to ignore safety warnings about oil in the chamber, just like no one should convince you to take a shot to the groin just for the fun of it. ;) If you shoot oiled ammunition in any firearm YOU are half nuts. :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ltthrust-1.jpg

"If you sail too far, you'll fall off the edge of the Earth."

This is, of course true! It happened to Eric the Red, Christopher Columbus and the Pilgrim Fathers. I don´t see why Enfields should be made to suffer the same fate. Please send `em all home where they´ll be appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

Depending on the date of your 03-A3 RLO or raw linseed oil or Tung oil could have been applied when it was made, the U.S. started using Tung oil in 1943.

There is only one place I know of that sells real pure Tung oil and that is at this link......Environmentally Friendly Paint - Real Milk Paint ® everything else on the market presently in nothing more than a wiping varnish no matter what the label tells you (read the msds sheet on each product)

A conservator in a museum to clean an antique firearm stock would use a 50/50 mix of raw linseed oil and turpentine, a soft cotton cloth and a heat lamp to help sweat any impurities to the surface. The metal parts of the gun would be cleaned with pure raw olive oil and a soft cloth and possibly a soft bristled tooth brush to lightly scrub some areas.

At the far end of the Bubba extreme spectrum some people would put the stock in the dish washer.

What lies in the middle is to determine what type of paint is on your stock and how badly you want to remove it. At repair level shops and at overhaul your stock if needed would be scraped or sanded as needed to return it to serviceable condition.

NOTE: Your rifle would not pass military inspection at any level with paint on it and something would have been done to it to remove the paint. Scraping seals the pores and surface of the wood and sanding opens the pores of the wood (What type surface do you need to match?)

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Edward

It appears to be an unissued DCM rifle with a dry stock that had whatever was the oil treatment at the time it was assembled. Since then it has leaned in the corner of a room probably for years. Hopefully the stock hasn't warped over all this time. I'm assuming the paint is a standard room latex paint since it is a white splatter as if a room was being painted and the rifle wasn't moved out of the way.

If your stock is very dry and has no build up of oil finish “on top of the wood” and the paint is “in” the grain you may have to strip the entire stock to remove the paint.

NOTE: I would try all other measures before stripping the stock down completely, stripping in this manor requires applying a water or alcohol base stain to restore the original color and patina.

Try these ideas

How can I Remove Latex Paint?

Remove Paint Splatters | Myperfectcolor.com

I bought this dresser below at a yard sale for $25.00 and it had white latex paint and a non water base red paint splatter on it, I used 0000 steel wool wetted with Minwax Antique oil finish to “scrub” the paint off. (WARNING: Minwax Antique oil finish is a wiping varnish it is less than 50% linseed oil)

If your paint is “in” the grain the above method will not work as the steel wool will not get into the grain of the wood. Try real raw linseed oil available at craft stores for oil painting it is very pure refined oil and you will not find a better grade of linseed oil.

NOTE: The Sun-Thickened linseed oil is actual pure boiled linseed oil and the other two are pure raw linseed oil (no fake Chinese crap with toxic garbage in it) it is non-toxic and requires no health labeling and you can rub it on bare handed, see photo. ;)

Before we have yet another thread contaminated by the "cartridge lubrication war" could the moderator please step in?

Edward, I respect your knowledge and the documents that you have brought into your postings, but I fear that you are letting yourself be too easily provoked by other members who prefer to hide their identity. They press your button and you go bang, which encourages them to keep on pressing.

To those other members I say, give it a rest guys! What you are doing really looks like trollish behavior.

Patrick

Patrick Chadwick

You are 100% correct, Albert AKA GunnerSam and I have been banned from Gunboards for excessively heated, bloodthirsty, rip your lungs out arguing which ireload2 contributed to greatly.

This running gun battle spilled over to this forum and for that I apologize to all the members here and I do mean it. BUT this doesn’t mean I still don’t want to hit Alfred and ireload2 over the head with a big hammer repeatedly in a dark alley some place. (just not here)

I will do my best to ignore these two trolls who decided to bring the fight here to this forum and stay OUT of their stupidity and not bother the other peace loving non-inherent weakness Enfield loving peoples hair.

BUT here is the problem dealing with case lube, I have the utmost respect for Parashooter and he is older and wiser than I and Parashooter knows more because he has been reloading and shooting longer than I have (Parashooter is more chronologically gifted than I am and is a better speller)

The one and ONLY thing I disagree with Parashooter on is lubing cases because I damaged a rifle doing it, I do not know how I did it, if it was carelessness in not cleaning the chamber before shooting regular ammunition or what.

To Parashooter I will say this again, if it is done correctly it does no harm at all because I did in the past, BUT if you fall asleep at the switch and forget to clean the chamber or have ANY oil or grease in the chamber with full power loads your rifle is in for a damaging pounding.

I’m saying this because I respect Parashooter and he is NOT a troll, and a wiser older person just like Parashooter taught me the same case lube trick, his name was Bill Kushland and he was a retired Air Force Master Sgt who served in the Eight Air Force in England during WWII on B-17s. Bill is no longer with us and is in that big shooting range in the sky.

As a moderator who is also a collector, a reloader and a shooter of Lee Enfield rifles, I would like to say to all those who share my passion, that we try to promote the sharing of our experiences, knowledge and passion for our chosen hobbies.

When this turns into a negative thread because of strong personality clashes or idealogical differences, we are expected to "moderate" the thread to bring the posters back into a more "gentlemanly" debate on the topic.

We try our best to be fair to all, send PM's, post warnings, try to bring the subject back into line, but when our efforts fail or people are not receptive to our message, we resort to using our "power" to censure individuals. This is not something we do do in isolation. There is normally a full airing of the topic on the private moderators forum where our feelings on the thread are tested and checked with other moderators. Our actions follow on from this and we take the good and the bad comments,in the form of PM's from the punished and their supporters or opponents - but simply don't reply.

By the time someone has been censured, a normal person should have been able to read the signals - we aren't in the business of simply "thwacking" members for our own amusement or personal bias ( despite what some of the censured might believe). Our sole purpose of being moderators is to help the global membership by providing a forum in which all can participate and have an enjoyable experience.

Sometimes we get it right and sometimes we get it wrong - but hey, we're humans, not Gods. The thing that all members should remember is that all moderators believe they are serving the general good of this website and we volunteered to do it because we felt we could help.

Amatikulu

Amatikulu

And “some” hot headed people of Scottish ancestry still paint their faces blue and like to “whack” certain people with their claymore when they feel the Enfield clan has been insulted. :bitch:

And possibly on just a few occasions one of the really thick headed Scotsmen might have been a little slow in putting away his large sharp claymore, war hammer, dagger, brass knuckles etc. :o

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06/fight-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...azetta01-1.jpg

Ireload2

I already have a photo of you below, but thanks for letting me know what you think you look like in your dreams. :rolleyes:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Horton Surname Origin
(Locality). A town in Yorkshire England--the horrible town, or the town in the ravine, from Horr, a ravine.

Back on topics kids, puh-leeeze. I want to learn stuff, my head is still too empty for my taste.

Wait, what was the topic of this thread again?

...er, sniffing too much blow, oops, what a typo, blo...

hey, no problem with the thread growing to other subjects, I bypass any heated parts and get to digest the facts on a new subject, no problem...to be honest I really didn't understand about oil in a chamber until now, so for me this is a win.

When you are going to do any research on oil finishes Google the topic from every possible angle and then look up the MSDS sheets (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the products contents.

If the MSDS sheet does not list what the product contains DO NOT use that product because the company is trying to hide the contents of the product.

I applied Behr Tung oil to a stock because it was recommended by a very knowledgeable person only to find out later the contents of the product had changed and it was now had 50% linseed oil and was a wiping varnish. Behr Tung oil contains absolutely NO tung oil and was changed to save the company money.

Example below is fake boiled linseed oil, it is not boiled, it is not polymerized oil, it contains linseed oil with resins and dryers added.
http://www.newparks.com/PDF/MSDS/SOL...LinseedOil.pdf

Example below is real boiled linseed oil and contains no chemical additives to thicken and aid in drying.
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/m...5/wcd025c0.htm

Linseed oil info (read tech specs)
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...uct.do?pid=145

Good info
Traditional Finishing Techniques - Google Books

Note: do NOT use oil base stains to color your stocks, oil base stains will dry on the surface of the wood and prevent the linseed oil from penetrating into the wood, use alcohol or water base stains as these do not seal the wood surface.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...diestain-1.jpg

A wall paper wetting tray can be used to soak old dry stocks that need a long drink and cause the wood to swell to help cure wood shrinkage (tighten up your loose fore stock)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP3254-1.jpg

This is a little late, but if you want real, pure, unadulterated tung oil, it's available from The Real Milk Paint Company, Quakertown, PA, tel. (215)538-5435 (Environmentally Friendly Paint - Real Milk Paint ®). A 16 oz. plastic bottle of "dark raw tung oil" cost me $10.25 plus shipping about 6 months ago and will probably last me the rest of my life. Both smaller & larger sizes are available from this source. Hope this helps.
Donzi

Oops!! Guess I should have read the earlier pages of this string before posting. Anyway, they're a good outfit to do business with.
Donzi

It might seem a bit anorak. But I got expert advice from an old stock maker who worked for Krieghof. After sanding with 600 grit and steel wool, the stocks were treated with pure linseed oil and then rubbed by hand, using pure, unadulterated linseed oil and pumice dust for hours on end until the suface was so smooth that it appeared to be shiny but was in fact opaque.

That's basically what we did as apprentices Villiers, got the stock, complete with our poatches etc to as perfect a finish as we could then it went into a warm linseed oil tank for a few hours (while we started yet ANOTHER...) After a few hours, it drained and then we went to work on the linseed, boning it into the wood with another piece of hardwood. Until eventually, the linseed gave out a deep sheen. No ridges from the scraper or lines from sandpaper were allowed. Everything was perfectly smooth. Nothing but linseed oil was permitted. And when you saw what was achieved by our apprentice examples, you wonder why anyone would use varnish!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

That's basically what we did as apprentices Villiers, got the stock, complete with our poatches etc to as perfect a finish as we could then it went into a warm linseed oil tank for a few hours (while we started yet ANOTHER...) After a few hours, it drained and then we went to work on the linseed, boning it into the wood with another piece of hardwood. Until eventually, the linseed gave out a deep sheen. No ridges from the scraper or lines from sandpaper were allowed. Everything was perfectly smooth. Nothing but linseed oil was permitted. And when you saw what was achieved by our apprentice examples, you wonder why anyone would use varnish!

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Well, I´ve just done mine ... and the reason why it´s not done any more is

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slave labour is now prohibited.
(But the result was worth it. Reminds me of a cricket bat.:thup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

...I applied Behr Tung oil to a stock because it was recommended by a very knowledgeable person only to find out later the contents of the product had changed and it was now had 50% linseed oil and was a wiping varnish. Behr Tung oil contains absolutely NO tung oil and was changed to save the company money.

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Edward et al, I would be grateful if someone could either verify the following or demonstrate that it is a myth:

I once read (sorry, I've lost the reference) that the tung oil used by the Japanese on the T38 and T99 rifles was derived from the Tung oil tree (Aleurites fordii). It belongs to the Euphorbia Family (Euphorbiaceae) and the juice of euphorbia plants, commonly known in the garden as spurges, can cause allergic reactions.

And, so the mislaid source, some GIs exhibited allergic reactions after handling captured Japanese rifles. This story may have some element of truth. If true, it would explain why a merchant of a wood finish might want to cash in on the known name of Tung as a good wood finish, but avoid using the real stuff to avoid medical claims from allergic customers.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

Patrick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Edward et al, I would be grateful if someone could either verify the following or demonstrate that it is a myth:

I once read (sorry, I've lost the reference) that the tung oil used by the Japanese on the T38 and T99 rifles was derived from the Tung oil tree (Aleurites fordii). It belongs to the Euphorbia Family (Euphorbiaceae) and the juice of euphorbia plants, commonly known in the garden as spurges, can cause allergic reactions.

And, so the mislaid source, some GIs exhibited allergic reactions after handling captured Japanese rifles. This story may have some element of truth. If true, it would explain why a merchant of a wood finish might want to cash in on the known name of Tung as a good wood finish, but avoid using the real stuff to avoid medical claims from allergic customers.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

Patrick

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I charge $50.00 and hour for cutting and pasting, my bill come to $1.66 :D

Tung oil is made from the pressed seed from the nut of the tung tree. Tung oil is considered a drying oil much as linseed, safflower, poppy and soybean oil. When applied, it provides a tough, highly water-resistant finish which does not darken noticeably with age as does linseed oil. This is not to say that it is a colorless finish; it still has a slight golden tint.
Tung oil is also sometimes called “China wood oil”. It has been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in China to seal decorative and marine wood as well as porous masonry.
As the source of tung oil is a nut, people with nut allergies often report adverse reactions to contact with (or even the odour of) tung oil. Reactions can be severe in some cases. Whilst tung oil has been used for many centuries as a finish for kitchen items such as wooden bowls and cutting boards, some individuals must avoid its use.

Tung oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pure Tung Oil comes from cold pressing of the seeds or nuts of the Tung tree. Tung trees mainly grow in the mountainous regions of china away from industrialization and pollution. Climate, soil and air quality are essential for a high quality oil. Our 100% Pure Chinese Tung Oil or China wood oil is a all natural finish manufactured by pressing the tung nut, no petroleum distillates or other additives - just Pure Tung Oil. All Pure Tung Oils are not the same. Some low priced marketers will package South American Tung Oil (dark, greenish in color) and sell its as the higher quality Chinese Tung Oils. Chinese Pure Tung Oil is available in 3 grades, we only offer the best available, Grade 1 yellow. A better quality Pure Chinese Tung Oil will offer superior color, faster drying and a long term elastic finish. Elasticity is a important factor as the oil must continue to flex with the expansion and contraction of the substrate on which it is applied.

Pure Tung Oil Finish - Wood Finishing - All Natural Finish - China Wood Oil - Real Milk Paint ®

Patrick, I'd vote for urban legend, since the US military went to a tung oil dip as an initial factory coating on its small arms wood during WW II & no outbreak of "wood rash" has been thus far reported. HTH.
Donzi

Patrick, you may be barking up the wrong tree. Google "urushi" to find out more about the somewhat toxic finish used on many Japanese military rifles.

See also, Toxicodendron vernicifluum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Japanese allergic oil story is similar to the AK47 story put around immediately after the first gulf war that most of the abandoned rifles had been doctored by drilling into the underside of the barrel, where the hand supports the fore-end, so that if you picked one up and fired it, it'd explode and blow your fingers off. It scared the xhit out of a lot of blokes but I fired hundreds of 'em and hundreds since too!

I worked on the basis that they couldn't even strip them to use a pull-through, let alone strip them to use something as complicated and technical as a hand (or even a power) drill!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Edward et al, I would be grateful if someone could either verify the following or demonstrate that it is a myth:

I once read (sorry, I've lost the reference) that the tung oil used by the Japanese on the T38 and T99 rifles was derived from the Tung oil tree (Aleurites fordii). It belongs to the Euphorbia Family (Euphorbiaceae) and the juice of euphorbia plants, commonly known in the garden as spurges, can cause allergic reactions.

And, so the mislaid source, some GIs exhibited allergic reactions after handling captured Japanese rifles. This story may have some element of truth. If true, it would explain why a merchant of a wood finish might want to cash in on the known name of Tung as a good wood finish, but avoid using the real stuff to avoid medical claims from allergic customers.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

Patrick

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This is an interesting story that was covered in the old jouster.com boards.

Japanese Type 38 rifles were finished with linseed oil (per "The Type 38 Arisaka" by Allan and Macy, a fabulous book by the way BANZAI&copy Special Project #8 - The Type 38 Arisaka). Type 99 rifles were finished with urushi, which is made from a "toxic, caustic sap" of the Toxicodendron vernicifluum tree Toxicodendron vernicifluum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While cured urushi finish is stable, exposure to uncured urushi, or urushi dust (such as caused by sanding a urushi finish, such as found on a Type 99 stock) can cause a contact dermatitis http://www.urushi-kobo.com/rash!.html

Tung oil originally came from China (it is sometimes known as chinawood oil) and has never been documented to have ever been used on Japanese Type 38 or Type 99 rifles.

Shortly after World War II there were two reports in the medical literature of cases of contact dermatitis among servicemen who were exposed to the "Japanese varnish" on war-trophy rifles. These were servicemen who sanded the finish or had "initmate contact" with the varnish. Almost certainly it was urushi finish on Type 99 rifles that caused the rashes. "Toxic, caustic" urushi has a well-known ability to cause rash, whereas linseed oil was widely used on military rifles around the world with few if any reports of rash, and tung oil was not known to be used on Japanese rifles. Tung oil was used on M1 (Garand) Rifles, but again with few if any reports of rash.

Now here is where the urban legend about tung oil causing a rash begins: in the December 1947 issue of American Rifleman someone wrote a letter to the editor in which the author describes a rash he incurred while working on a Japanese rifle stock. The author believed the rash was due to the wood used in the stock, and most of the editor's response was a description of various woods that are known to produce adverse reactions in some people.

But in the last paragraph, the editor says "On the other hand, your experience may have been due not to the wood itself but to something in the varnish or dressing that the Japs used on the stock. Tung oil is a very popular ingredient in varnishes in China and Japan. Some people are violently allergic to Tung oil and a slight trace of it might produce alarming symptoms."

You see what happened? The letter writer described a rash from a Japanese rifle stock, most likely caused by urushi. Japan is in Asia, tung oil comes from Asia, and the American Rifleman editor incorrectly assumed that tung oil was used to finish Japanese rifles, and came to the incorrect conclusion that tung oil caused the rash. That erroneous conclusion has become an urban legend that began in 1947 and lives on in 2009.

Now it is true that some individuals can be "violently allergic" to the most commonplace things, such as bee stings, peanuts, and shellfish. But reports of allergic reactions to tung oil are rare.

Bottom line: allergic reactions to the finish on Japanese rifle stocks are caused by urushi, not tung oil. Specific references available at http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banza...h/UpM99Fin.htm

Thanks to all who responded, especially parashooter and Milsurp Collector. Obviously I had a garbled reminiscence of the thread on the old board. Which illustrates why I usually like to give a proper reference for anything supposed to be fact, and was cautious in this case where i could not find a reference.

You see how an "urban myth" can become established, and how endless repetition does not make it any truer. One startling example occurred recently with the Quantas jet that had a blow-out in the luggage hold. A lady was quoted, repeatedly as having seen "a gaping hole in the fuselage below her". One look at the picture of the damage showed that this was nonsense. Aircraft do not have windows that you can lean out of, so even if the entire luggage hold had disappeared, you would not be able to see that from inside the passenger compartment. And even if she could have looked out of an open window, the hole would still have been invisible, because of the curve of the fuselage. What most likely happened was that she saw the hole after landing, and this visual image became fused in her mind with the shock of the event. She may well herself have believed that she saw the hole from inside, but the photo demonstrates that it was impossible. Nevertheless her claim was repeated over and over...

Why I am going on about this? Because we should all be extremely cautious about some of the opinions that are passed around on these forums referring to events and processes that none of us could actually have experienced. Such as why a particular aspect of a rifle was made in such a way. None of us was involved in the design, approval or manufacturing processes at the time, and as an engineer who often had to analyse other peoples work I can assure you it is fatally easy to make a misjudgement based on YOUR knowledge NOW while being unaware of some aspect that was perfectly obvious to those involved THEN.

In this sense, it would be a relief never to see any more speculative postings about Sgt. York ("my granpappy always said...") or design features ("inherent weakness"). As a contributor on another forum used to say "In God we trust - all others must have supporting documentation."

The garden calls. A very sunny good morning to you all from

Patrick

This has been a great post, it should now be preserved in wikipedia for all to see...cheers

"...combatants who don't have the leisure to do so. .." No troopie would be anywhere near a place that he may need his rifle with oil in the chamber. Oil dosn't compress. Oil in the chamber is bad.
"...A few small arms require oiled chambers and/or cartridges..." None of which work properly. AG42B's aren't fired with oiled chambers either.
"...you grease cartridge cases all the time..." Not brass cases you don't.

Another vote from me, interesting thread. Thanks guys.