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I am converting 1903A3 Sporter to a 1903A4 clone . It was already drilled and taped for a Buehler base & rings, so I can't use the base as it is to long. My question is how to drill & tap the receiver as it is so hard I can't even center punch it much less drill it! Any advise as to how to do this will be greatly appreciated.:sos:
An old timer gunsmith showed me how he uses an old fashion plumber's soldering iron to spot anneal the receiver. The soldering iron is made out of copper and was heated on one of the old blow torches. The copper retained the heat to make several solder joints before it needed re-heating. They can be found in most junk shops. The handle needs to be cut off and a flat filed on the tip of the soldering iron.
Clamp the receiver in a drill press vise, and adjust everything to where the tip of the soldering iron will touch the receiver at the spot where you want to drill it. Heat the soldering iron and press it against the receiver and lock it there. Let the soldering iron cool there, and the area will be annealed without heating the entire receiver. Repeat for the other holes.
try that on a SC reciever, and let us know how that works..
SC,s are hardened all the way through.
a Remington however is only surfaced hardened, and surface annealing will work fine.
what i do,
i use a short peice of rebar, grind the end down to a dull point, heat it with a torch red hot, push the point wear you want to drill and hold it, untill it cools, usually 5 mins works,
with out a D&T fixture, liikely you will drill the holes off, or crooked.
most gunsmith including myself will D&T for about 25.00 a hole.
the Carbide bit your going to have to use will cost close to that.
some advise, no matter what clearance drill they say to use,
use one the next size larger.
you will break the tap...and u say you WILL break the tap, and have fun getting it out.
also, if you snap the tap, and think you can grind it down and reuse it...dont.
toss it, it has fractures all over, and will snap as soon as you try it again.
after you Drill the receiver, toss the drill, its done. 3 holes is about all your going to get out of them, dont try and resharpen them, youll only frustrate yourself down to road.
can you tell iv been there done that???im cheap my nature. but learned.
dont be cheap when it comes to this.
heres a link to the fixture that needs to be used, to D&T.
even with it, its tough at best.
Universal Sight Mounting Fixture
notice the price???thats why i charge 25.00 a hole, i have to do a lot to cover that cost.:}
Listen to Chuck on this one. The bit you will have to buy just for this job is a solid carbide three flute available from Brownells. Then you will have to buy the fixture. Have a Smith do the job with the correct tools and make sure they have done this type of receiver before.
Great advise JBS, and send the receiver to Chuck. He does great work and it will make your life much more simple.
Considering what Jiffy-Lube charges for an oil change $50-$75 to drill and tap an 03-A3 is a gift.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
Regards,
Jim
You're probably right. The gunsmith mentioned has only been doing it for 60 years, and has probably never D&T'd an S-C receiver. The copper soldering iron holds the heat much longer than rebar.
I have also seen him remove broken taps with nitric acid. The nitric acid attacks the high carbon steel but not the receiver. After the acid sets for a while, hit the tap with a center punch and it will shatter. Then just blow it out with an air hose.
with all do respect to Forester products..
i picked my Jig up for a lot less then 400.00. a 100.00 i think.
i have a few styles of D&T fixtures, i get them at gunshows or Ebay when they come available,
same for the drill guides.
my D&T rates are a bit under market, i know some places that charge 50.00 a hole.
a word of warning, the new made Redfield bases are NOT the same dems as the original US made.
the new ones are made in China, and the same as Gibbs bases, sans the Gibbs markings, likely made by the same company.
look on the back of the Redfield bubble pack.. says...MADE IN CHINA.
look for a commercial Redfield in a box. not the plastic pack.
avoid the Burris amd Leupold bases as well, all have different mounting holes.
you can do some pretty bad damage to a receiver by drilling holes in it..
measure 3 times, set it 2 times, and drill it once..
and if your lucky..your holes will mate up..
remember. i charge 35.00 a hole to weld it shut.. my way of saying do it right. or pay the price, lol.
FYI: i respect the heck out of Johhny Peppers, but i challange him to D&T a SC receiver, or come over next time i do it. same for removing a tap from, a receiver,
remove a broken tap from the front hole of any A3..that hole goes through the forward locking lug, the thickest part of the ring.
when they usually break, they do it on the bootom. Murphys law in effect.
make sure its someone elses receiver, so you can stress on damaging someone elses rifle, as well.
3 weeks ago, i drilled a SC, and the first one ever for me..iv done many Remingtons ect, took 4 drills to do the job, and my low speed drill press wouldnt do the job, so i used a buddys mill, with oil dripping, a new drill, ect, it cried, and sparked all the way through, the rear hole was tough, the front took all i could do just to get the hole started, and 2 new drills to get it done.
even with a tap guide, i still had a hard time tapping the holes, and i drilled them over size..
with respect to your friend..i dont watch i do.
id like to find some nitric acid, after 9/11 regular folks like us cant buy the stuff. i cant get sodium nitrate since then either.
Thanks fellows for you advise , I may mess it up but so far I thank I am on the right track . I attached the base with the rear screw. made a punch from the shank of a 11/64 drill that is the size of the front screw hole. Was able to make a slight mark , I then with a diamond burr I was able to break through the harden surface. I was then able to re-punch and drill the hole. Used a 1/6 drill will re drill with #31 or perhaps a 1/8" may be better?
I sure hate to tell the gunsmith that what he has been doing for so long doesn't really work. As to the nitric acid, there is an ammonium nitrate plant built in WWII near the same town that has a huge nitric acid plant. Nitric acid is not hard to come by.
How about pure bromine to kill moles. Just a few drops in their tunnel and they are all gone. There are three bromine plants in the area.
By the way, I don't drill and tap anything.
What differences do you note in the newer Redfield bases that one should stay away from? Just curious about your observation. Thanks!
heres my observations, on the different bases.
the older Redfield bases, in the cardboard boxes.
are the exact same dems as the early 1940,s to50,s GI style bases, as well as the GI bases.
the burris base, isnt even close to the same holes, have no idea what was being done with that mess, doesnt close around the rear sight base as well.
the Leupold base, is close, looks nice, too round on the edges, but the holes are off as well, and uses smaller 6/48 screws.
lasty.
the POS China made Redfield bases. are straight, and dont fit the receiver right, so the front hole must be modified to sit flat on the receiver.
the holes are off, just enough so it wont fit in the original A4 holes.
if you open the holes so they will move, you can make them work.
they never sit right, and when you tighten the screws, the base binds on the screws, then looks twisted.
when Redfield closed all the rights and name were picked up by a company that has the scopes and mounts made in China.
the Gibbs base, has the same issues. if you look at the repro A4,s close the mount doesnt fit right, even with shims.
iv installed a few China made A3 bases, and all gave me fits, if i did it the way its supposed to be, then the base wouldnt sit right on the rifle.
if i worked the dovetail on the base, opened the holes a bit, then the base will fit better, and hold zero {maybe}
the original A3 A4 JR base had a slight bend or curv so it would fit the slight off set of an A3 receiver, if you look at one with the rear sight removed, it sits a bit off to the right, not much, but just a bit, likely to work with the cut off switch.
if you drill the rear hole dead center like your supposed to with a non redfield base, it wont fit right on the ring...
confused??me too.
I see what you mean. The chinese Redfield base I have just doesn't seem to sit flat on the receiver ring, the curve of the base is tighter than the ring and it makes contact on both sides but not in the middle. I understand now that Redfield doesn't supervise the production as much as sold the name, but not the quality. Thanks for the heads up, know where I might find an older base?
[QUOTE=bordercav;79395]I see what you mean. The chinese Redfield base I have just doesn't seem to sit flat on the receiver ring, the curve of the base is tighter than the ring and it makes contact on both sides but not in the middle. I understand now that Redfield doesn't supervise the production as much as sold the name, but not the quality. Thanks for the heads up, know where I might find an older base?[/QUOTE
You know if you are putting this on an A4 it may be moot since virtually all of them had shims under the front of the base anyway.
Sometimes the older style mounts show up on ebay. Other than that prowl the parts dealers at gunshows and if there are any left in your area the older gunshops. Occasionally packages get a little dirty and shop worn and people look right past them. Inside the box the item may still be brand new.
Regards,
Jim
Actually it's a sporterized 03A3 SC. I'd like to ditch the Weaver rings and go with the Redfield 1 piece. I suppose I'll have to keep my eyes out for one at the next gun show. Thanks!
the base will sit off the one side a bit at the rear, but should sit flat on the ring.
the China made bases just dont fit right, shims or not.
let me know how Drilling that SC reciever works out:}
Fortunately the Weaver mount on the rear of the receiver was offset by a gunsmith who knew what he was doing. I assume that won't present too much of a problem mounting a Redfield Base if I can find one. Thanks!
I realize this is an outdated thread, but none-the-less quite interesting. What ever happened to this project???? Inquiring minds want to know.....Rick
I'm especially pleased to stumble across this thread. I picked up a sporterized A3 awhile back for the CMP sniper match that had Weaver rings mounted. I was dismayed when I found the rear sight hole had been drilled a bit off.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rrorhole-1.jpg
It produced an offset scope mount by this much
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...unterror-1.jpg
I'd be very interested in chuckindenver's thoughts on the likelyhood of a successful mounting using this hole.
Art
they are supposed to be offset a little bit,
if you look at the, receiver from the rear angle, youll see the front ring is actually offset just a tad, and the reason the new made bases dont fit worth a crap, the early and original bases were made with this in mind, and made off set, so that they would fit on the rifle correctly with no large gap.
look at a real A4 with the base installed, it will set just like the one you have, your hole is drilled correctly.
Thank you my friend, I've been worrying for nought then.
Art
For Chuck in Denver: Just to clarify, if one has the China made Redfield base the rear mounting hole will be off slightly to compensate for an improperly made sight mount correct? If one has an early Redfield mount then the mount will center up on the rear receiver stand. Also, can you advise if the 1903A4 mount holes went completely thru the front and rear receiver or were they blind holes? Thanks, Rick
the early made redfield bases {in the red and white boxes} will mount directly onto real A4 holes.
the holes were drilled before heat treatment on a real A4, and drilled all the way through.
do to fitting issues, i will no longer install China made bases...more work then they are worth, i have posted several pictures of the problems and soft mounting screws that stripped as soon as they were used...
Thanks Chuckindenver, are there any markings on the good versus bad Redfield mounts that would indicate which is which? Many times these mounts come up for sale without the packaging which would cause an identification problem. The civilian Redfield mount I have has an "S" stamped on the bottom of it but no other markings.
Thanks, Rick
I just stumbled onto this post, and if I may be so bold....listen very closely to what Chuck said. My experiences have been like his. I use jigs and the best equipment I can buy, and I have been doing it since 1968. Without the proper jigs and tap guides you better forget D&T'ing that SC. You are going to ruin it. If that tap breaks, you have one serious problem. Try that nitric acid-tapping on the tap with a punch deal and see how well it works. You can make it work, but you had better be one skilled sucker. I have tapped countless receivers of all types, and I have broken more taps on the Springfields than all the rest together. By the way, they aren't cheap. Send it to Chuck or the gunsmith of your choice. A good gunsmith isn't cheap because his skills came at a high cost of time and money.
Jim
Great info here,.......thanks to all