There seems to be already some P14 discussion in this forum, but it is a distinct rifle and the title should officially reflect that, IMHO. It did afterall come before the M1917 was conceived.
Yes it's the No3, but it's no Lee. Since the Lee Enfield forum isn't really the right place, it seems like this would be the correct forum as it's the older brother to the M1917.
Vote your preference. :madsmile:
Discuss.
IMHO, P14's are part of discussions usually in Enfield forums. Although manufactured in the U.S. at the beginning of WW1 to help out Great Britain, the design was by Enfield.
Also, they are a different caliber (.303) and were used almost exclusively by Great Britain and Commonwealth countries.
I think that when collectors around the Internet are looking for information, they most often look in Enfield oriented forums.
Just my two cents ... :)
Regards,
Badger
When discussing the M-1917 (often [mis]identified as the P-17), it is often called the American Enfield. As Badger stated, it is an Enfield design, and more closely associated with the British than the 'Mercans.
By the way, here's an example in our Knowledge Library, which was the forerunner on which the P14 was designed and tested, intended to be .276 cailbre ... ;)
Pattern 1913 "Trials" Rifle (.276 in.) (click here) .....
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
Regards,
Badger
they are basicly the same rifle, with minor changes,
anyone who shoots , collects, or works on them knows this.
the P14 and M1917, other then the cal, are the same rifle..
from the tread sizes, to the way they work.
however.
other then the cal, the SMLE is nothing close to the P14.
for the record.
the .276 was experimented with by the US Military for sniper use, in the Remington 721, as was the cal, .280
how do i know?
5 years ago, i went to an auction at the Rocky Mountain Ars.
they had a large one story building, with small rooms like storage lockers.
all filled with junk, tools, brass, web gear, jeep parts ect.
they sold each room as a lot.
i won 3 rooms, one was filled with gunparts, 1928 SMG stuff, M1 Carbine, and Trench gun stuff, all new in the wrap, and demilled weapons.
another was full of ammo, powder, bullets tooling, ect.
the floor had live ammo, about 5 inches deap,
when i cleaned it out i basicly used a coal shovel, and filled a wooded box, and a few plastic drums.
90% was US headstamped .276 loaded ammo, and the rest was US marked .280Remington.
id fill a small plastic tub and put them on my table at shows, and sell them for 2.00 a round,
a collector asked how much i had, i answered how much did he want.
he now owns all the .276 ammo i had, and another collector owns the .280
i might have a couple singles in a drawer some place, if i find them, ill share the pics.
though they may have done the testing for other reasons, i personlly know the Armoror from that place, and he told me, that they did a lot of testing with other cal,s for long range sniper use, as well as sub sonic testing,
along with special missle testing to deploy nerve gas. but thats another Jepp story.
Chuck in Denver, I just wanted to thank you for your posts. They are always informative and I very much enjoy reading your input on many subjects. You have answered a few questions I have posted over the years and I appreciate your help. You and other experts on the forum really make this forum a great source for info and enjoyable to boot.:beerchug:
your very welcome...i too learn things here every time i sign on..
as long as we keep it light and friendly, ill always be around.
i have a rule, when it stops being fun, its time to stop.
They're the same weapon, just in different calibers. There are only nine parts that are different and those are mostly related to the different shape of the ammunition (see the bottom of the parts list):Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger
1917and P14enfield
Of course they both should be discussed in the same forum and the title should contain both names.
HT
Cool, if the powers that be want it in the Lee Enfield forum then that's fine. I wasn't sure where the correct forum was, anyway it clearly could go in either forum, but I still say it's more correct to have it in this one. (the Pattern 13 as well) :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger
I think the P-14 should be included wirh the M1917. They are the same rifle. Maybe a subheading? It would never occur to me to check in the SMLE section for P-14 info.
I knew of the .276 Pederson being tested by the US, but thats first I've heard of their testing the .276 British. Makes sense though, since if adopted the rifles and ammo may have been produced here just as the P-14 was.
Cordite was no good for the .276 British and if it had been mass produced they would likely have developed a Pyro-Cellulose loading for it.
The P-17 like the 1903 was a adaptation of the mauser design. The lee Enfield is a updated and improved American design to begin with.
Theres actually next to nothing about the P-14 thats distinctively Enfield, aside from the shape of the grip. The rifle was a complete departure from previous British designs.
Also there are a few mutts out there, P-14 receivers fitted with M1917 bolts and re-bored to 8mm.
I vote for the inclusion of the P14. BTW, no-one here in Mauserland has ever heard of an M1917. But if I say P17, they know what I'm talking about. So much for correct nomenclature!
P14 and P17 (oops!) = One basic design, produced in two different calibers. And about the only Enfield technical/parts connection is that the Enfield foresight blades fit!
Patrick
I had forgotten that the rifling form of both P-14 and M1917 are distinctively Enfield.
There were Ordnance Officers in favor of adopting the Enfield pattern of rifling for all US arms when tests revealed that the enfield rifling coupled with the lower operating temperature of IMR propellants gave a much longer effective bore life than had been imagined possible at the time.
I believe Julian Hatcher may have a run down on this in Hatcher's Notebook, if not I may find the source again soon.
The shortened P-14 rifles the British experimented with for a time held great promise in creating a much lighter and handier rifle. There were similar shortened M1917 rifles constructed for Chinese troops in the CBI theatre, on a trial basis. The full size M1917 having proven awkward for smaller statured Chinese troopers. In length these were very nearly the same size as the later No.5 carbine.
Ok folks ... :)
Based upon your voting and on a test basis to see if it works without creating a whole lot of confusion, I've renamed this forum.
M1917 and Pattern 1913/1914 Rifles
(Forum for discussions about M1917 "American Enfield" and British Pattern 1913/1914 Enfield Rifles)
I'll move obvious and appropriate posts from the Lee Enfield Collectors Forum to here over the next few hours.
Hope this works for you guys ... :thup:
Regards,
Badger
P-13, M1917 and Rifle No. 3 Mk1 :dancingbanana:
LMAO! :cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by JGaynor
im for including it ,
while the P13 , P14 , M17 are in fact a mauser departure from the enfield on the comonwealth side but id have no problem discussing all three in the enfield forum as well ,
its still a fact that the P14 & M17 were in fact produced in three dedicated locations , a great and highly successfull experiment in utilizing commercial contractors to produce military rifles ,
one was a modification of the other upon conclusion of its contract , one cannot really be discussed at length without the other getting mentioned ,
as to the P13 - no problem including them with me even though it was only experimentaly produced at vickers and so few were made that they are a true holly grail item to those of us that collect these
We did ... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by A square 10
Thanks ... :thup:
Regards,
Badger
second from right is a 276 cartridge for the P13 rifle
Goes with this .. :cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS
With thanks to Advisory Panel members Lance and Wheaty for their assistance, we've added a new entry to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)
Pattern 1913 "Trials" Rifle (.276 in.) (click here) .....
This is a fascinating rifle to study in detail with some interesting oddities noted in the Collector's Comments section of the main Knowledge Libary entry. For example, the long range dial sights are mounted on the left side of the fore-end similar to the original Pattern 1914 rifles, plus a long range back sight is mounted on the left side of the receiver. Note however, that because of the experimental .276 caliber, the dial plate on the Pattern 1913 "Trials" rifle was NOT graduated as part of the original manufacturing process (see pics).
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
Regards,
Badger
Poll closed... :lol:
I think the winner was declared and the change was made ... :thup:
Regards,
Badger