Where there semi only M14's made either for US or foreign military contracts? I heard this the other day and have no idea if it's true or not.
No, I don't mean M1As or Polytechs or Norincos.
Thanks.
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Where there semi only M14's made either for US or foreign military contracts? I heard this the other day and have no idea if it's true or not.
No, I don't mean M1As or Polytechs or Norincos.
Thanks.
TRW NATIONAL MATCHQuote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
Thank you. Did TRW make semi's in NM configuration only, or did they do service rifles, too?
A lot of standard service M14's were issued with the selector lock out which made them semi automatic only. M14's were only capable of full auto fire if the selector switch was installed.
TRW MADE SERVICE RIFLES ALSO. THE NM WERE INTENDED TO BE SEMI AUTO ONLY, THERE WAS A COURT CASE CONCERNING ONE OF THE NM RIFLES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
I was referring to M14s built without any of the FA bits, like an M1A or Polytech.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS
I know TRW built select-fire M14s. I was asking if they built any semi-only, non-NM guns for military service.Quote:
Originally Posted by noslack 327
Stevo
There would not be a need to build military use semi-auto version. All you have to do is remove selector mech. and you have semi-auto. I believe the NM models were made for civilian use in NM competition. Military could not legally give out a full auto gun to civilians. I think the court case/BATF issue was that a receiver "once a machine gun is always a machine gun". State rifle associations had m14s on loan for match shooting, I do not know what they were, NM semi-auto or welded up/cut selector area full auto?
AFAI recall, the TRW NM rifles produced were quite few, but they NEVER HAD the selector shaft boss hanging off the mating surface of the receiver and thus could NOT BE considered "M14's". You simply couldn't hang the parts on them! If'n my memory blows, please correct me.:thup:
Just to clarify...they were M14's as far as design, (less the FA selectability).
Thanks for the info, gents.:thup:
early 1980's, had an article about the semi's based on the M14 action.
These were made at the Springfield Armory, without the leg for the full auto parts and
dismounted the OP-rod using the M1 Garand system.
The Gas cylinder didnot use the cut-off spindle, just a thru hole for gas feed.
I think 30(?) were made for testing, but were determined as to be:
1) not a standard rifle (per M14)
2) the ATF stood fast on "Designed as a class III, always a class III"
3) DOD determine that diversion of part and second line was deterimental to
manufacturing of the M14.
Yes, SA did hand-make a very small number of M14's without the selector cutout on the receiver. They were indeed semi-auto M14's. I think the procurement folks turned the idea down. They did not want a semi-auto in troops hands in the event of war, as it was felt the full-auto version was going to fight the war. ATF rulings did not exist in the timeframe. Not even sure ATF existed back then. In retrospect, it was a good idea that deserved support.
In 1968, with the passage of the Gun Control Act, the agency changed its name again, this time to the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Division of the IRS and first began to be referred to by the initials "ATF." In 1972, President Richard Nixon signed an Executive Order creating a separate Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms within the Treasury Department.
In the '60's and early '70's the M1 Garand was the major civilian service rifle along with 03/03A3s. The military units were shooting the Garand and the newly accurized M14, a class III firearm. An M1 Garand was tough to get at that time. The M1 Garand was still a service arm issued to secondary units, reserve, NG, etc.
I think the timeframe of the few semi-auto M14's manufacture was around 1963-64. ATF had NO say over Army use, manufacture and distribution of weapons. Still don't. Had the Army chosen to make a limited run of semi-auto M14's they would certainly been able to sell/issue them to civilians. They are still disposing of semi-auto M1's via the CMP. This was a good idea that never happened. Too bad.
All of the Texas State Rifle Association DCM-issued NM M-14's (including mine) had selector shaft locks, welded. The disconnector could be removed to allow field stripping but the seletor shaft lock was permanently welded. as far as I know, all NM M-14s had the selector shaft lock not just in place, but welded "permanently."
All of the (few) NM M14's I have seen had their selector shaft welded in place. However, that is not the discussion here. The Army actually made a very few M14's without any selector shaft in place. The looked completely like the M1A that we all know today. Mind you, VERY FEW actually made. Good idea but never in full production, as Army procurement had no interest in marksmanship/competition training.
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO "U.S. Rifle M14 From John Garand to the M@!" by R. B;ake Stevens. In 1964 a contract was given to TRW's Jet and Ordnance Division (the third civilian M14 producer) to produce 7,600 M14 match rifles. They were marked on the reciever heel " U.S. Rifle/7.62-MM M14 NM/TRW logo/serial number" "The selector shaft, sear release, selector lock, and receiver sear release lug are permanently welded. These are the parts which in the Service rifle provide full-automatic fire when desired; with these parts welded, the rifle has a semi-automatic capablility only." So, U.S. Rifles, 7.62 MM, M14 (government produce rifles either in a government arsenal or under contract from the governemnt) either modified to national match standards or produced as specific national match rifles have full automatic parts!
Absolutely correct. TRW NM M14's are well known. HOWEVER, in 1963/64 SA made a very few (2-4??) semi-auto M14's. They were test fired and furnished to Army procurement for a final production OK. No OK given and the very few rifles produced faded away. I think (?) one is on display at SA Museum and it is the only one still around. Again, too bad.
Also: I suspect the decision to not produce this semi-auto version had something to do with the M15 program. The Army had a heavy-barrel version of the M14 known as the M15 already for production. It was not produced and neither was the semi-auto version. You must recall in 1963/64 no one thought having a welded up M14 was a big deal. After all, it was no longer fully auto. Again, the semi-auto version was a good idea, too bad.
The purpose of the 1934 National Firearms Act was to regulate what were considered "gangster weapons" such as machine guns and hand grenades. Then U.S. Attorney General Homer S. Cummings recognized that firearms could not be banned outright under the Second Amendment, so he proposed restrictive regulation in the form of a high tax and federal registration. Originally, pistols and revolvers were to be regulated as strictly as machineguns; towards that end, cutting down a rifle or shotgun to circumvent the handgun restrictions by making a concealable weapon was taxed as strictly as a machine gun.
Conventional pistols and revolvers were ultimately excluded from the Act before passage, but other concealable firearms were not: the language as originally enacted defined an NFA "firearm" as:
A shotgun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length or any other weapon, other than a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machinegun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such a firearm is included in the foregoing definition.[2]
Under the original Act, NFA "firearms" were machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, any other weapons (concealable weapons other than pistol or revolver) and silencers for any type of firearm NFA or non-NFA. Minimum barrel length was soon amended to 16 inches for rimfire rifles and by 1960 had been amended to 16 inches for centerfire rifles as well. In recent years several SBRs, Winchester and Marlin "trapper" rifles made before 1934 with 14 or 15 inch barrels, were removed from the NFA (Title II), although they are still subject to Gun Control Act of 1968 (Title I).
Steve--since 1934 the military could not sell/transfer/give these classed firearms to civilians. Their possession was illegal without going thru the registered transfer and tax.
The military can not give/transfer these class firearms even today without proper transfer/registration to civilian authorities--law enforcement(fees are waived, but transfers still need to be approved.). The military certainly could not loan a NFA class M14 to civilian shooters.
Thank you for the education. The point of a purpose-built semi-automatic rifle is at least in part to avoid the NFA. If the Army built a semi-auto rifle and called it, lets say, an "M1". Could the Army sell it to civilians? Most likely. Could the Army build a semi-auto rilfe 7.62mm M14NM and sell it to civilians? Most likely. Mind you the conversation is all about purpose built semi-auto M14's, again, mind you these were not converted machine guns. Got it? And, yes , the Army did build a very, very few such rifles. (Mind you these few rifles looked exactly like an M1A, a highly sucessful civilian rifle. These rifles were NEVER made with the selector switch or the switch cut-out. Therefore, no switch was welded shut and none existed on these rifles. Therefore, they were purpose-built semi-auto rifles.)
proper authorization to do so. The Army or any military branch can't just sell or give or loan any weapons/firearms to civilians without an act of Congress.
It could be a single shot! The military has DEMIL'ed(Capt. Crunch) a ton of stuff that was out dated, but not allowed to turn over to civilians
The CMP and before that, the DCM, were started by acts of Congress. They have strict rules on how to operate and what they can sell to civilians.
Steve, I did find this info.:
[edit] M14M (Modified)/M14NM (National Match)
The M14M is a semi-automatic only version of the standard M14 and was developed for use in civilian rifle marksmanship activities such as the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
M14M rifles were converted from existing M14 rifles by welding the select-fire mechanism to prevent full-automatic firing.
The M14NM (National Match) is an M14M rifle built to National Match accuracy standards.
The M14M and M14NM rifles are described in a (now-obsolete) Army regulation, AR 920-25, "Rifles, M14M and M14NM, For Civilian Marksmanship Use," dated 8 February 1965. Paragraph 2, among other things, stated that the Director of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division, Internal Revenue Service, Department of the Treasury (predecessor to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) had ruled that M14M and M14NM rifles so modified would not be subject to the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA) and, as such, could be sold or issued to civilians. However, with the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, the NFA was amended to prohibit sales of previously modified automatic weapons such as the M14M and M14NM to civilians
Also:
The purpose-built National Match version was produced in 1962 and 1963 by Springfield Armory, and in 1964 by TRW. Springfield Armory upgraded a number of service-grade rifles in 1965 and 1966 to National Match specifications. Upgrading was also carried out in 1967 at the Rock Island ArsenalRock Island Arsenal
The Rock Island Arsenal comprises 946 acres , located on Arsenal Island, originally known as Rock Island, on the Mississippi River between the cities of Davenport, Iowa and Rock Island, Illinois....
. These M14 variants are to this day capable of extreme long-range accuracy.
Springfield and TRW delivered more than 11,000 National Match rifles in the 1962–1964 period. Roughly 8,000 service rifles were modified to NM standards during 1965–1967.
Just trying to get us all on the same page with facts. I did not know that there were that many M14NMs. I wonder how many are still floating around? I hope the above info. is fact, I pulled it off the net. doing some searches.
The Garand Collectors Assoc. recently had a nice article about the M14NM. These are all converted M14's. It seems the CMP has a pile in Anniston(?). It is my understanding the M14NM were the subject of a court ruling some years back that declared the ONE at trial to be a legal semi-auto. The American Rifleman Magazine had a nice article about the purpose-built semi-auto M14. Maybe 1980(?). Very small number built and the Army turned down the production request. The Army had no choice then and was forced to use the M14 as the platform for M14NM's. Of course, all M14NM's then are converted machine guns and BATF show up in the picture.
The NM M14 in question was owned by a Class III dealer from Ohio. One day ATF confiscated the rifle and through help from the NRA, the court case was won and the rifle returned to him. Because the Feds never appealed the decision, it applies only to that rifle. If an NM shows up today, the Feds have every legal right to go through the same process with the owner.
The dealer, who was a friend, sold the rifle, along with the records from the court case, to another friend I knew. He recently sold the rifle to another individual.
Unfortunately the dealer was killed in a very strange type of automobile accident. He will always be missed.
Just to add to the confusion - in 1981, at the request of the AMU, the small arms shop at Anniston Army depot milled off the receiver extension to which the auto selector is fitted on three m14's. They were then reassembled and test fired to see if the process affected accuracy or functioning. I understand the reasoning was to see if the rifles could be modified so as to never be converted to full auto and then sold to civilian competitors. Another rumor was that the army wanted m21 rifles without the selector - who knows!The rifles worked fine, the report was forwarded and nothing ever happened, The three rifles were supposedly sentenced to meet cptn crunch
Good friend in Massachusetts with his son are on the state rifle team. Until a few years back, they were equipped with Army owned M14 rifles on loan. The selector switch had been removed, leaving the shaft with the rifles locked into semi-auto only mode. Recall sitting at their kitchen table having coffee while examining one of those M14 rifles. That particular piece was of TRW manufacture. Was told that at least one other M14 in possession of the rifle team members, was in fact built by Harrington & Richardson.
Since then, those M14 rifles have been returned to the military for service use. The target shooting team now uses AR-15 match rifles.
wow, it would be nice to own a c&r m14 in semi-auto, it would complete my collection!
As I recall, Lee Emerson's book (see the stickies for a copy) talks about them Stevo.