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What I can expect accuracy wise with a new criterion barrel? I know that these are "service grade" and alot of accuracy with the garand comes from a stock, ect. I am planning on re-stocking (DGR) and having him replace the barrel with a criterion on one of my well used (TE7-8 now) garands. It used to shoot groups, now it shoots shotgun type patterns at 100 yards.
Just curious if anyone else has had this done and what the results were.
the same as a GI barrel. 3MOA with LC Ball Ammo off a rest with a competent shooter.
For what it's worth... I tested my new criterion for the first time last weekend.
At 100 yards using a sandbag rest. HXP ammo. I was messing with 6 o'clock aiming vs. center mass.
Disclaimer:
I'm a new shooter and only been to the range exactly seven times with a garand. So I'm not a "competent" shooter. It may be all 10x in the hands of a competent shooter.
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I was hoping that after spend about 600 dollars on this rifle, I would have a rifle that would shoot no more then 2 MOA. I thought that a new barrel would be a better shooter then a new GI barrel.
The barrel I was replaceing had shot about 2 MOA with LC ammo. I managened a 3 shot group once that was under an inch with LC 66. That was many rounds ago. The stock on this rifle also has a back and forth motion to it when the trigger guard is removed.
I have a garand with a scope that I can get 2 inches with handloads but that rifle likes to string the shots vertically.
Would I be better off getting a krieger (or other maker) barrel? I figured that I could send a rifle to kreiger for about 800 using the exisiting stock. Of course, I would have kreiger glass bed the stock, float the handguards, do a trigger job, ect. I was planning on sending the rifle I have scoped to have that service done down the road as I use that rifle for deer hunting at times and would really like to have a garand that would be able to keep up with my M1a.
What kind of groups can you get with handloads and 168's?
you are almost certainly MIS-remembering the accuracy of your old barrel. CONSISTENT (as in ALL THE TIME) 2MOA is what you might expect with match handloads in a well set up non-match prepped M1. ABOUT 3MOA is all you could expect with LC.
I have a full match prepped CLint Fowler rifle which MIGHT hold 2MOA with LC surplus. The stuff is DOO DOO for any hope for accuracy.
HXP might get you a bit better groups than LC ball, but not much more than a HALF MOA.
Well, Hugh, I'm not misremembering what the old barrel could do. Of course, this was off the bench and I had to do my part but I could hold 2 MOA with that rifle and get better groups then that at times. I also handload so I'm not too concerned what groups LC or the greek surplus is going to give me. I will most likely be shooting my handloads out of the rifle anyway. I know M2 ball is going to be larger in groups but what kind of accuracy is the barrel capable of with match ammo? With the garand that I have scoped, I can get around a 2 MOA at 100 yards with my handloads. That barrel isn't new either.
Colt100 I have had a few Garands come through the shop that would hold 2 MOA or a bit better with Ball and would really shine with handloads. You can’t go wrong with a Kreiger barrel. I do not have first hand knowledge of his match prepping of Garands but check around. You can get a Garand to shoot Sub MOA and I have made a few that would do so. The hard part is keeping them in that condition. They just don’t stay in tune for long periods of time. It has a lot to do with the extended length of the OP rod. Also note there are two methods of setting up the front hand guard. One is the old way where it floats. The other is to close up the front hole so that the front hand guard is driven on the barrel and tight as hell. Some rifles and barrels respond to this very, very well. If you go this way try the drive on method first as it can’t be done after the metal is removed from the front band to do the old way. Good luck
How do you tighten it up, with shims? I never heard of this before. But, I have a 1903 SA, that shot 6 inch groups. I saw the barrel would move when I gripped it near the muzzle. I cut up a match book cover at the range, and used strips as shims between the muzzle and front band. The groups shrank to 2 inches! I will try your method next week. It can't hurt IMO.
Remove the front end cap from the front hand guard. Place on a armorers block. With a round nose punch begin taping around the raised lip of the barrel hole, the side of the cap that faces the wood. You want to close this hole up in a uniform manner until when installed back on the hand guard it requires you to drive the front hand guard onto the barrel. You are attempting to trick the barrel into acting like the front hand guard assembly is a fixed part of the barrel.
On your 1903 you created a pressure point that changed the harmonics and whip of the barrel for the load you where shooting. Keep playing with the pressure point and you may get the group smaller. The method I described above is for M1 Garands not 03 or 03A3.
under the right conditions (i.e. honest verification by third parties), I would be quite happy to place my own 500 bucks cash down anytime against 100 bucks from anyone who thinks they can sit down and get an HONEST NO BS 2MOA (i.e. 2 inch group or LESS) with two consecutive full clips (8 shots) of ANY USGI LC M2 Ball ammunition ever made off any rest they like from a STOCK M1 Garand. The dial caliper never lies and virtually ALWAYS disappoints.
The military accpatance standard for M2 ball (best I can recall) was about FOUR (4) MOA (or less) from a TEST BARREL FIXTURE. Even hand-loaded into carefully prepped cases with weighed charges, M2 heads still stink and constiture a waste of powder and primers.
You are correct about the acceptence of m-2 ball as far as accuracy goes. It is not minute of angle ammo in any way.The acceptence is approx. 3.75 inches at 100 yrds.
If Lake City .30 Ball (or for that matter M80 Ball) ever shot as well as its perceived reputation, I would be sitting on tens of thousands of rounds of it.
The facts tho are different. Lake City .30 or M80 has rarely if ever, shot anything close to match or handload performance with any weapon we've tried in 20 years of attempts. Granted, our most fervent wish is that USGI Ball ammo would shoot MOA in stock service weapons, but its simply not been able to be proven in the field with numerous shooters and numerous weapons. Therefore, I've never gotten excited about Lake City ammo for sale, cheap or expensive.
What has been odd is the distinct absence of a correlation between looks and performance.
One lot of FN dated 1957 .30 ball in several 03A3's was MOA out to 300 yards, shot after shot, after shot. This FN was imported by Century in the 90's and came in square metal cans that were very unique. Boxes were crumbly, rounds were dark with minor corrosion. I still have several of the cans, but the ammo is long gone. Wish I could find more.
Several lots of Austrian 7.62x51 Ball were MOA in both my M1A's out to 300 yards. The ammo was dirty, dusty, and the boxes looked liked they had been sitting in a dusty warehouse since 1971. It shot phenomenal. Again, wish I had more.
Several lots of MEN 7.62x51 approached MOA out to 200 yards. Clean, bright, shiny brass, made in the 1970's. Perfect boxes, perfect ammo. Shot very well. Still have quite a bit of it.
Bright beautiful brand new surplus Lake City M80 ball. 5" at 200 yards in a NM M1A. More than .40 a round when we bought it. Was glad to sell it for .30/round at a gunshow and buy something else.
It's been proven by us at least, that over the years, several batches of ammo that LOOKED bad shot well. Several batches of ammo that LOOKED GREAT shot bad. Looks have nothing to do with performance. Neither is there any "magical" blessing that falls under any name....like Lake City.
One credit I will give to Lake City is Quality Control. I know of no other small arms manufacturer in the world that is as effective at weeding out bad rounds like Lake City and their QC team. Simply unsurpassed.
You sure like to thump your chest don’t you. Not being informed to the highest degree of aptitude I shall hesitate to articulate for fear I may deviate from the true course of rectitude, and shall leave all things Garand to your Expertise and Mastery. By your leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS
good idea.
I do agree with Texasflyboy as I have shot a lot of FN 57-58 and it shoots
better than the Hornaday's M1 168 A-max, I have one unopened case of it
left but I don't shoot much anymore so it may last the rest of my life.
Just a thought, I have had many Match grade M1's over the years as well
as a custom built by Don McCoy. sad to say but my M1a's would outshoot
all of them.
I have found the SA barrels from 1951 and up to be as accurate as many
customs I have installed.
We had R Lee Earmey filming a Lock & Load series #9 a month ago and I talked
with him for hours about M1's and M1a's. He used four of my rifles for the show
and during our talk he stated he has four M1's and his best match rifle is a 2 MOA,
he also said his M1'A's will out shoot his M1's and the M1A is his favorite rifle.
M1As and M14s will generally always out shoot a Garand unless they are "sick". They have a shorter operating system and better gas system design. The 7.62 round just adds icing to the cake. What was the Tattoo on his arms ? they are too old and run together to make out on TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim K in NE
"The stock on this rifle also has a back and forth motion to it when the trigger guard is removed."
The loose fitting stock may be your problem. Try a different stock that fits tight or bed the one you have. Bedding can't be used on a rifle uswed in CMP Garand matches but if you don't compete, give it a try. Thee should be no fore & aft movement without the TG in place.
Kirk is correct, if a stock does not lock tight it will not shoot very well.
I have tightened many M1's for John Garand matches by Tig welding the
trigger guard lugs where they have the flats worn from years of lock up.
Weld the worn flat area and file them leaving a little more then the orignal
diameter, try it in the rifle, if it is tight file a little more until it locks with
a little smack from the heel of your hand. Use mild steel rod not SS then
it can be cold blued and it blends nice and can not be seen.
This is OK for JG match rifles, shims or bedding is not.
Colt100 - First off let me confirm I don't pretend to be the "know it all" of Garands like so many on this forum, I have built 6 match grade rifles
for fellas and 2 for myself and rebarreled dozens of rifles. With that said, I just rebarreled a gentlemen's Garand this past week with one of CMP's Criterion barrels. Went to the range this past Sunday to function fire and get sighted in for him. After getting zeroed on paper I ran a full 8 rd clip and 5 out of the 8 rds were touching and the other three 1 inch off the group. I forgot my rest so was shooting sitting at a bench resting the rifle on a couple of sweatshirts. I was very happy with that accuracy - was using LC '69 ball ammo. This is no BS although Hugh Uno I'm sure will have something to say.
A suggestion about stock fit - like Jim K & Kirk were saying you want to have minimal movement. Without trying shims or any other thing that would make your rifle non - JCG match compliant, if you have rifle in the stock movement
try using a few coats of tung oil on the inside. Allow each coat to dry completely before applying the next. One of my As-Issue rifles was a bit loose and I did this and it tightened right up. I did 3 coats. Lasted about two seasons and did it again this past summer.
Hope this helps - good luck
Although my stock does have some movement, I just checked my barrel and the TE is over an "8" on the stone ax gage. The gage only goes up to 8. This rifle used to shoot well with this stock, even though it moved.
I don't compete so I'm not too worried about Match rules. I have 5 other garands that came from the CMP. I have one IHC that TE is a 2 and MW is a 1.5. That would be the rifle I would compete with. The barrel is an LMR barrel also.
I am NOT planning on shooting (much) surplus in this rifle. In no way was I saying that this rifle would be able to shoot 2 MOA with LC surplus. I did say that surplus did have bigger groups. I am NOT (pay attention Hugh) saying that LC surplus is in anyway match grade or that I would expect that every new garand would be able to shoot surplus under 2 MOA. I would be happy with 2 MOA with surplus. I was asking real world experience from someone who has simmilar work done to a garand so I would have some expectation on what to expect accuracy wise. For 200 dollars more, I could have kreiger install a match barrel, glass bed the current stock, float the handguards and get a trigger job. I would expect that service would produce a rifle that would hold at least 1.5 MOA with MATCH grade handloads. My main question was wether it would be better to just restock and rebarrel the garand and match prep one of my other garands in the future or just match prep this one, but we seemed to get off track discussing LC ball ammo.
I like LC ball. I have had much better luck with LC ball then the rest of you it sounds. LC ball from the 60's is underpowdered but works great for most shooting I do. Practicing positions, general shooting, ect. M80 ball (LC 03 to be exact) allowed me to hit a 24 inch gong at 500 yards, offhand, with iron sights, when I first bought my M1a. I didn't hit it every time but I'm sure that some of that was me. That ammo impressed me for how accurate it was for M80 ball.
I mainly like LC ammo for the brass that I get. I love the LC brass for reloading and get very consistant loads with it.
Hugh, do you have one of these barrels or are you just guessing?
Thanks for everyone that has posted.
Hugh, do you have one of these barrels or are you just guessing?
****************
Your INITIAL question (i.e. "what can I expect from XX commercial barrel") rests upon a rather weak premise. You seem to expect a certain degree of inherent accuracy, and/or superior accuracy from the barrel alone. BULLET is FAR FAR more important than barrel.
As far as accuracy goes, even from a Krieger USGI/JCG legal rifle, truly superior as this may be, I would never "expect" more than a QUARTER MOA advantage/improvement over a crisp tight new USGI SA barrel. If these barrels actually offered significant inherent accuracy (say more than 1/2 MOA), everyone would use them at Camp Perry and the winners circle would have NOTHING else. Thankfully, that is NOT the case.
HEAVY match barrels from Douglas or Krieger may have a bit more inherent advantage because they are STIFFER, but in a fully tuned match gun, the difference between say my Clint Fowler match M1 with a USGI barrel and the exact saME rifle with a heavy match barrel would probably NOT exceed 1/4 MOA! The real; advantage with the heavy barel is that as the match progresses, the heavy barrel would heat up less and be a bit more consistent, plus wobble less (heavier), and likely stay accurate a few thousand rounds longer.
********
Oh, and I have owned several custom/commercial barreled match M1s and M1As over the years and still do.
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You just can’t help yourself can you. You have to thump your chest and be first and last word and gods gift to all things with an “M”. Your contributions to this forum are about 95 percent negative or to use your words Poo-Poo. It look as though you came from the old jouster forum, why don’t you take your megalomania and delusions of grandeur and go back there so that these good people can have a productive discussion about improving the performance of their Garands.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno
So you are guessing. That's what I thought. I agree with JBS. You have little to contribute and speak with authority about something you know little about. You have no idea what this barrel will do and yet you have this know it all attitude.
Yes, I expect a degree of accuracy. If some new barrels shot to 10 MOA and other 2 MOA, that is still an expectation of accuracy.
I know that there are many factors in accuracy in these rifles. My main questions was if it would be worth it to just re-stock and re-barrel or to have the rifle match preped. That's why I was asking about this barrel and REAL world experience. I wanted to know people's experiences with that barrel or if I would better off getting another barrel or taking a different direction.
I am not expecting that I'll have a 1 MOA shooter just by changing the stock and barrel. I was asking what these barrels are capable of. I don't go to perry and have no idea what barrels top competitors are using. I'm sure that they are not using the cheapest barrels out there and I would guess that the top people are using the best equipment (match barrels). If every barrel is the same accuracy wise, then why doesn't everyone use just the cheapest ones out there? I don't buy that one. The degree of accuracy has to be different between barrel makers otherwise why would anyone spend 200 dollars more on a "match" barrel?
Hugh, I remember you now from the old forums and you sure haven't changed. You used to like to argue with everyone there also. This post is almost nothing but your responses that contribute little (as you have no experience with this barrel) and off track comments about LC ammo and it's accuracy.
Besides, I believe that you are the only one who has posted that has "infractions" under your name. What does that mean?
Since this is my post, I will respectfully ask Hugh not to post on this thread anymore. Hugh, you can start you own threads and spread your wisdom on those threads.
Thanks to everyone else who has posted.
Colt, I understood from an earlier post that this rifle out of the six counting this one ? is your lets experiment rifle. If so then I would concur with you and suggest you use this one rifle for “work in progress”. Leave the others to “as issued” by CMP for now. You can do a modular approach and I have done this for customers that were on a budget. You do each step and then see the results of the change. You will note that the little changes get little improvement. Like the finial change of shimming and hand fitting the gas cylinder to the barrel may not make the groups smaller but may change it from oblong to round and as a result more rounds stay in the ring. I would say try a good bedding job first. If I recall the NRA M1 book has a section on how to bed a Garand check that out if you are a hands on guy. There are several other steps you can do before spending the money for a barrel. Do some of them and see what happens. Then upgrade the barrel. Doing it in steps also allows you to see and understand what each step helps with. This is of great help when you are trying to figure out why your Garand stopped shooting well ,,,,, and this will happen, they are hard to keep in tune. :thup:
Folks, we are all here at the bar to have a good time. Be nice to those around you or the bouncers will magically appear and peace will reign after all. Enjoy your beers and have a nice night.
Bob
thanks Bob, and I was about to mention that people can judge for themselves the value (or veracity) of my input/intormation. Sometimes people don't like any information that isn't exactly what they wanted to hear.
I have owned, shot, and reloaded far more than my fair share of M1s and M1As and am ahappy to share my opinions and/or experience. The fact is, I have been THANKED 68 times in 42 posts (vs. 2 and 6 for my apparent antogonists here). Thus, I stand by my information and am confident that most who read (or know me personally) don't need my bona-fides to trust my opinions or word.
As for my "infraction" (which you can see yourself if you click on my name), I freely admit and confess that I accidently had one extra WANT AD listing a couple or three months ago (over the limit of three I think) because I failed to go back SIX WEEKS in the Want Ads from THAT time and find an old ad I had never deleted (in other words, like 9 pages BACK in the listings). I thought it was pretty chicken-#hit thing to do, but what the heck, I guess I should have known the rules in greater detail,
As for Krieger barrels, you can call John Krieger or Steve Dahlke at krieger/Criterion 262-628-8558 and ASK THEM YOURSELF about this question. I am pretty sure they will tell you essentially the same thing you have already read here.
As for being warned off from "your postings" that's a pretty bold move for someone who doesn't own the site, so I guess I will continue to post within my discretion. good luck with whatever.
Hugh ... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno
First of all, thank you for your Contributing Member support. Both my wife and I appreciate it very much, as few people put their money where their mouth is when it comes to paying the freight to keep the site alive. We are about to double the size of our host server in terms of disk space and processor performance, so our costs will double proportionately, but the members will see a nice increase in performance and the amount of research material we can present live on-line within the Knowledge Libraries as a result. Without the support of folks like yourself, that wouldn't be possible. :thup:
Second, even though they don't own the site, Bob and the other moderating staff are pure volunteers, who work with our full empowerment to maintain a "fair, firm and friendly" environment for all of the membership. One that's as free from personal attacks, political bun fights, or any other type of negative postings that usually turn into literary death spirals, and have the potential to turn an otherwise pleasant experience into something distasteful, where people are discouraged from posting for fear of becoming targets.
So, anything everyone can do to help that cause, yet maintain a right to dissent and disagree, but through civil discourse, would be very much appreciated by the ownership.
Again, thanks for your support … :beerchug:
Regards,
Badger (Doug)
Just for clarity ...
My last post wasn't intended to center out AKA Hugh Uno personally. It was meant to address EVERYONE participating in these types of multi-opinion threads. :ugh: To be honest, I haven't even read this entire thread as I don't collect these rifles. :p
I apologize to AKA Hugh Uno if it left appearances it was all about his posts. I was trying to respond to the general statement about our moderator's role on here, vis-a-vis the board ownership and perhaps that came out badly, although the message remains the same. ;)
Sorry AKA Hugh Uno ... you get a free one on my head ... :slap:
Regards,
Badger (Doug)
I was given an 100-round box of FN57 ammo. It looked clean, just a slight tarnish on the case; no corrosion or other signs of deterioration. Out of the first 4 rounds, I had 3 duds & 1 hangfire. I called it quits. I pulled the bullets, dumped the powder into freshly primed cases (Rem or WW + CCI primers) and seated the bullets. The bullets ran .307" so I did not expect much in the way of accuracy. Surprisingly, the ammo would easily do 3" @ 100yds out of a 1903.
JBS-Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS
I am in no way "choosing" a side in this debate you have here with Hugh. I think that Hugh was not trying to come off as a braggart or know it all. I think that when we read a posting on a thread, you cannot hear the inflection that the author of that post meant it to be. After reading what Hugh had posted, some of it, even though it's HIS opinion, may be valid. I am not trying to cultivate the crap that used to happed on the old Jouster forum. This forum is nothing but class and I enjoy reading and learning from you guys. I just think we all sometimes need to read and reread the postings on these threads so that stuff like this doesn't occur.
I'm sure that if you met Hugh in person, you two could talk Garands all day long and eventually come to a happy medium.:surrender::beerchug:
MIke
I had my H&R rebuilt last year by DGR and Dean installed a Criterion barrel. The last garand match I shot in I scored 469 by 8x using the supplied LC ammo and was very pleased with both the rebuild and the ammo. Shot a clean in the prone rapids even though I was sighted about 1.5 minutes too high. A nice tight 10 shot group cutting the top of the Xring. This barrel seems to like the 150 grainers better than my 168 gr. handloads.Quote:
Originally Posted by colt100
Every gun is law onto itself. That's why I don't put too much weight into the "competition" barrels. Criterion is just fine for what I do (JCG Matches.) If I need a Krieger for what I'm doing, I might as well just get an AR and get it over with.....:DQuote:
Originally Posted by tbs
Mike D