1911 & M1 Carbine: Going strong?

I was thinking about some of my favorite firearms: 1911 (though I don't own one at the moment) and M1 Carbine (of which I own one and have a second on the way!). The 1911 has been going strong for 100 years. It is still a first class sidearm and fight stopper. The carbine has been going strong for almost 70 years: It is still an excellent weapon, especially if used in the PDW role that it was designed. It is as good at it now as it was then when it comes to under 100 yard Personal Defense Weapons. Lets even consider my other favorite, the Kalashnikov. It has 62 years under its belt, and is (IMHO) the best ASSAULT RIFLE ever made. There are between 75 and 80 million of them still in service around the world, even at conservative estimates. Even the venerable M16 has over 60 years since the first full auto AR15 project ARPA days of the late 50s.

None of these weapons has changed substantially since their inception 50-100 years ago! Our martial weapons seem to be at, what is at least a temporary zenith when it comes to "Grunt" primary weapons.

Look back in history. In 1869/1870, the primary US martial long arm was either a percussion .58 caliber rifle musket or a "modern" Allin conversion in either .58 rimfire or 50-70 Government. Imagine fast forward 70 years (the length of time the carbine and almost the Kalashnikov have been going strong) to 1940. A soldier with that weapon would be a joke. Look at the 1851 .36 caliber Colt's Navy revolver. Flash forward to 1951, and it is not even any longer competitive, let alone first rate after 100 years like the 1911.

In an era when the practical and useful life before the obsolescence of most consumer goods (cameras, computers, phones, etc) gets shorter and shorter, these martial firearms go against the trend and have astounding longevity of viability and practicality. Even other martial firearms like the M1 Garand or it's improved offspring, the M14, or the FN FAL have this same longevity. It seems once we reached reliable semi and full automatic firearms, we peaked quickly. None of the mentioned firearms (1911, M1 Carbine, AK, M16, M14, etc.) have changed in any major way. Changes have been superficial: either in ways of manufacturing, some changes in materials, or externals such as stocks and optics.

If you think about it, it is testimony to the vision and skills of designers like John Browning, John C. Garand, Eugene Stoner, and Michael Kalashnikov.

And that's why so many of us love those guns! Why they have such loyal followings.

I gots mine!

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I had a Remington Rand 1911A1 in 99% finish, with box. Sold it about 8 or 9 years ago when I was out on disability retirement. It will be my next acquisition when I can afford it. Won't be a Colt or a GI, as I don't foresee having $1,000 to spend. Will probably be an Auto Ordnance, Springfield Armory or Charles Daly.

Of all the modern weapons you mentioned, the the Carbine is the one that is the closest to being completely out of service with any military in the world. It basically exists now as a collectible, much like the Luger. Every one of the other modern weapons are currently in active military service. In fact, they are all being used by U.S. forces, including the AK (not issued but condoned for certain operators). The 1911 serves now only as the MEU-SOC 'M45'. It's basically a 'practical' with better sights, ring hammer, beaver tail, Nowlin internals, medium-length adjustable aluminum trigger, Pachmayr grips and 8-round mag with base pad. There aren't many of them, but they are issued. The Springfield Armory 'Operator MC' is basically it. They used M1911A1 frames until they ran out, now they buy slides and frames from Caspian and Springfield. Most of them are made at Quantico at the Precision Weapons group. They use the 1911 platform because no other pistol can hold up to the amount of shooting they do in training.
Here's my Taurus which looks like a MEU-SOC.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P1010011-1.jpg

Oddly enough, I think that if someone brought out a new style weapon w/ a revamped/ renamed 30 carbine cartridge as the latest and greatest PDW that sales would be brisk! The regular action w/ modern sight options and synthetic furniture would be OK, but I think an FN P90 in .30 cal would be much more useful than that 5.7mm round- if armor piercing is req., then just use sabots or some such- probably would be even faster than the 5.7 w/ more base area to push on. Otherwise, there's tons of development in good expanding projectiles. All the 30 carbine really needs is a good facelift-in either the weapon or the cartridge.

I think the ultimate success of the round would be assured of it were able to be hot-rodded a bit, but that's not a good idea unless it was changed just enough to not work in the old weapons.

My humble effort to bring the M1 Carbine into the 21st century.

Don

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/M1A1a-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Oddly enough, I think that if someone brought out a new style weapon w/ a revamped/ renamed 30 carbine cartridge as the latest and greatest PDW that sales would be brisk! The regular action w/ modern sight options and synthetic furniture would be OK, but I think an FN P90 in .30 cal would be much more useful than that 5.7mm round- if armor piercing is req., then just use sabots or some such- probably would be even faster than the 5.7 w/ more base area to push on. Otherwise, there's tons of development in good expanding projectiles. All the 30 carbine really needs is a good facelift-in either the weapon or the cartridge.

I think the ultimate success of the round would be assured of it were able to be hot-rodded a bit, but that's not a good idea unless it was changed just enough to not work in the old weapons.

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I like this idea, but the round is fine as-is except defensive ammo needs to be hollowpoints, and they are already made. I've always thought the .30 Carbine round was mediocre for a rifle or carbine, but would make for a great sub-gun. Evidently the Army agreed, hence the M2. The Israelis have/had a bullpup set-up for the M2 Carbine that looks extremely interesting. I wouldn't have known what it was except for the appearance of the barrel and the 30-rd mag. We discussed it on 'Battle Rifles' a few years ago - somebody knew what they called it but I don't recall what it was. As a home defense gun, I think the .30 Carbine is nearly perfect, particularly in a HP. All it would take to get some sales on a new gun is to come out with a hot new shorty carbine or bullpup like jmoore suggests for a PDW. Then, ammo would get cheaper as more was made in response to the gun sales.:beerchug:

ETA: I thought of something; imagine a PDW based on a Kalashnikov, but in .30 Carbine. It would be compact and have a folding stock, very much like my AMD65.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/AMD65a-1.jpg

Any number of ways to approach the weapon side- just so long as its short and 5lb- 2 1/4kg or less in weight. Reliable feed of any projectile type and modern sights are also must-haves.

BTW The two downsides to Don's carbine are:

1. The EO Tech sight is just a bit too heavy, otherwise they're pretty darn nice!
2. Stock Carbines don't always do well w/bullet profiles much different than the original RN FMJs- Sometimes, but not always,isn't near good enough!

Inland44's idea has merit on the reliability concept, but weight, ergonomics, and sights all leave something to be desired.

Good inputs! If y'all fine tune a bit, and get folk involved, the 30 Carbine may just come back w/ suprising swiftness. Some needs to first field the "modernized" cartridge and get some feedback. 90-100gr bonded core "ballistic tips" anyone? 2200-2100 fps? If its whitetail deer capable at 75yds or so I'd jump on it!
How about a 60gr 0.118" tungsten penetrator in a plastic sabot at around 2900-3000 fps?

Hmmm, interesting. A 30 carbine Kalashnikov. I am a huge fan of the AK. My everyday house/farm weapon (PDW?) might be my faithful and reliable Underwood M1 carbine with 110 grain RP JSPs. If it was serious zombies roaming the countryside, though, it would be my 7.62x39 Saiga restored to original, intended form, loaded with 123 grn HPs.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...troSaiga-1.jpg

Talk about reliable in the extreme, here is an article where a guy abused a cheap Romanian WASR AK with mud, ice, water, dirt, and thousands of rounds fired without cleaning. Interesting reading.

Firearm Review: Romanian AK-47 Variant, the WASR-10 - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

As for the Israeli .30 carbine bullpup, it was the "Magal" and was based on the micro-Galil. They tried it for several years, but pulled it out of service in 2001 due to various malfunctions.
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.co...pdws.htm#Magal

More thoughts:

ColtAR-15a2 lightweight gov't carbine and M1a1 both weigh 6lbs, w/in an ounce or so. Its gotta weigh well less than an AR platform, even if the M1a1 is more compact.
How much does the iron M1a1 buttplate weigh? Could several ounces be saved by using aluminum or high strengh polymer?
How much less does a type two band weigh compared to a type three?
How about a polymer trigger housing versus steel? Works in the new 10-22s.
Replace the rear sight w a polymer BUIS similar to an AR. Also mod the front to take AR sight posts for zeroing and night sight capability. Minor weight differential allowed!
Or replace the rear sight w/ a DR Optic style red dot- or the new armored Trijicon variant.
Better mags? These seem to be a weak point many times.

On the ammo side:

Keep the ammo in same specs but run either Pow'r Ball bullets from CorBon or Hornady Critical Defense 32 ACP bullets w/ a round nose. Bullet weight ~70gr and as much velocity as the platform will take! Max effective range only needs to be 100yd or so- 200 is more than the average civilian needs to deal with, or even non-front line M&P types.
Why bother w/ a detaching sabot when a 25-60gr penetrator could be molded integral to a solid polymer bullet? Concentricity is the main concern, so it costs a bit more, so what? This isn't intended to be a primary war fighting tool, but a special defensive weapon.

I like your thoughts on ammo, though lighter would only be needed for body armor. The 110 JSP & JHP work really well under 100 yards. We shot through both sides of a Kevlar PAGST helmet with a 110 grainer. 9mm JHP would not go through even one side completely.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I had a Remington Rand 1911A1 in 99% finish, with box. Sold it about 8 or 9 years ago when I was out on disability retirement. It will be my next acquisition when I can afford it. Won't be a Colt or a GI, as I don't foresee having $1,000 to spend. Will probably be an Auto Ordnance, Springfield Armory or Charles Daly.

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You might also want to consider either the Taurus Pt1911 or the Para GI Expert. Either can be had for under $600 and well worth the money.:beerchug:

I'm just trying to generate interest in the newer generation.

Taurus pistols. to me. seem to have gone down in quality conrol. Which means over all quality.
There are lots of modern 45 acp pistols to choose from.

The M1 carbine may be out of service with most front line troops world wide, but I know of a number of law enforcement officers, including myself, who still use it as a very effective patrol carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99295973-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Faulkner

The M1 carbine may be out of service with most front line troops world wide, but I know of a number of law enforcement officers, including myself, who still use it as a very effective patrol carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99295973-1.jpg

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I carried one myself as a LE trunk gun most of the time from about 1982 or 1983 until 1997. It gave me a warm fuzzy feeling!

That carbine looks like it can be usefull there, but, I would keep the door locked.....Frank

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Originally Posted by Faulkner

The M1 carbine may be out of service with most front line troops world wide, but I know of a number of law enforcement officers, including myself, who still use it as a very effective patrol carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99295973-1.jpg

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Almost OT, but your photo reminded me of one I took during a night cargo run in a C47 of the old timey cockpit w/ a glowing GPS display as a centerpiece. I think blending old and new tech sometimes produces something more useful than the sum of its components.

In your case, not only is a carbine a fantastic duty weapon, esp. since you can use whatever ammo is best, but its also less offensive to those "touchy-feely" types. (Never quite figured out how a weapon's looks changed its "persona"- Oh, well...)

When I was a Deputy on the SO in central Kalifornia in the 90s, I had a Poly Tech AK (registered). I had been using my M1 Carbine as my qualified trunk gun, but decided to qualify with the AK, and did. I was on perimeter of a no-knock drug lab search warrant when the Sheriff himself decided to check on us (we had a simultaneous, multiple warrant, county sweep going down). He saw me with the AK leaning over the hood of my cruiser and had a cow! He didn't care if I qualified with it, and it was authorized, he felt that citizens would think it was "EVIL." I do admit, that with the folded Type 56 bayonet, it did look MEAN! After the warrant service was finished, I drove home and got my trusty M1 carbine out of the safe. Personally, I think my M1 Carbine with two 30 rounders taped together and a Type I pouch with two 15 rounders on the stock looked just as mean!

imarangemaster,

But the Carbine is U.S. made. The AK probably was Chineese?

Maybe your Sheriff thought too many people had seen Clint Eastwood in "Heartbreak Ridge". And the line "the AK47 is the prefered weapon of your enemy" and didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea. :dunno:

Just like beauty, "mean" is in the eye of the beholder.
AK's aren't seen as too friendly to many who've watched the news the last few years.

Maybe that's it. The AK was Chinese. For about a year, I carried a seized XM177E2 with an 11.5 inch barrel from the arms room, and used that as a trunk gun. The Sheriff did not object to that, though in my mind it was as mean and evil looking as the AK.

Apparently others thought it was mean looking too. I had a suspect wet himself when he looked down the barrel of it on a warrant arrest. I was first in the door when we breached it, and he was standing in the front room. He was a Hell's Angel, three striker that was trading drugs for sex to Junior High kids. We had a no-knock warrant, as he was know to be armed and had priors for murder. I was the Investigator handling the case and wanted to be first in, just in case... but that's another story.

Anyway one of the SWAT Sgts. saw it on that raid, and being outranked, he got it assigned to him shortly after that. Once again, I went back to the trusty carbine!:banghead:

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Originally Posted by phil441

Just like beauty, "mean" is in the eye of the beholder.
AK's aren't seen as too friendly to many who've watched the news the last few years.

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But they are seen as friendly to literally millions of US owners. I think we all know better than to attach stigma to gun regardless of it's appearance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Hmmm, interesting. A 30 carbine Kalashnikov. I am a huge fan of the AK. My everyday house/farm weapon (PDW?) might be my faithful and reliable Underwood M1 carbine with 110 grain RP JSPs. If it was serious zombies roaming the countryside, though, it would be my 7.62x39 Saiga restored to original, intended form, loaded with 123 grn HPs.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...troSaiga-1.jpg

Talk about reliable in the extreme, here is an article where a guy abused a cheap Romanian WASR AK with mud, ice, water, dirt, and thousands of rounds fired without cleaning. Interesting reading.

Firearm Review: Romanian AK-47 Variant, the WASR-10 - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

As for the Israeli .30 carbine bullpup, it was the "Magal" and was based on the micro-Galil. They tried it for several years, but pulled it out of service in 2001 due to various malfunctions.
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.co...pdws.htm#Magal

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Apparently they are still playing around with the .30 Carbine in the new HEZI as well as the modified MAGAL.

have had no desire for either a AK or SKS.

Am satisfied with my Carbine & 1991A1.

Do I need the foreign firearms???



The real question on the Carbine is why it never was considered using the .45ACP & standard GI Mags??
That would simplified supply and training and we all know the effectiveness of the .45!

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Originally Posted by jjroth

The real question on the Carbine is why it never was considered using the .45ACP & standard GI Mags??
That would simplified supply and training and we all know the effectiveness of the .45!

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I think the original intent was to have a light recoiling, light weight weapon with which it would be easy to make hits out to 100yds. But then they figured if if 100 is good then 250 would be better... I think we're better off w/ the way things worked out. Just imagine what would have happened if w/ just a little further "out of the box" thinking that the carbine had been set up around a high speed .223" projectile....It would probably still be in service! (Along w/ 15 more years of people crying: That cartridge isn't fit for combat duty!)

Despite popular MYTHS, the 30 carbine round IS far better than the 45 ACP. I have shot through both sides of a GI issue PAGST kevlar helmet with the carbine, when 45 and 9 mm did not even go through one side. Others here have replicated the "Chinese thick clothing not going through" argument and proved it false, and I have personally killed a 175+ lb deer at over 75 yards with one with one shot. The 45 ACP would not have done that. Most of the bad rap comes from the M2 in Korea and poor fire discipline. If you don't hit the target, you won't stop it. Bugsy Moran is dead from being shot with a carbine, and the several WW2 GIs I talked to who used it correctly loved it.

I am not saying it should be a main battle rifle, but it does excel at what it was designed for: PDW under 150 yards.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Despite popular MYTHS, the 30 carbine round IS far better than the 45 ACP. I have shot through both sides of a GI issue PAGST kevlar helmet with the carbine, when 45 and 9 mm did not even go through one side. Others here have replicated the "Chinese thick clothing not going through" argument and proved it false, and I have personally killed a 175+ lb deer at over 75 yards with one with one shot. The 45 ACP would not have done that. Most of the bad rap comes from the M2 in Korea and poor fire discipline. If you don't hit the target, you won't stop it. Bugsy Moran is dead from being shot with a carbine, and the several WW2 GIs I talked to who used it correctly loved it.

I am not saying it should be a main battle rifle, but it does excel at what it was designed for: PDW under 150 yards.

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Exactly so. Energy is nearly 3X that of the .45. Use a softpoint or hollow point and you have an incredible PDW round.

So, why the lack of "official" interest in bringing the cartridge back? Or a modern LIGHTWEIGHT carbine- not the current 7 1/2 to 9 lb M4a1 or P90. For police use its probably better, as well, non-front line troops can always appreciate a few pounds less gear. Short barreled 5.56s just don't make a huge amount of ballistic sense. Logistically, more so, but anymore specialization is no big deal.

I was talking to a guy at the Benning AMTU armory. He said that the main problem with the M855/SS109 is the short barrel. He said it works well (yawing and fragmenting) out of the 20 inch barrel. Out of the 14.5 M4 barrel, the velocity is insufficient past 75-80 yards to reliably yaw OR break up and fragment. The 5.56mm Open Tip, 77 grain MK262 Mod1 (from Black Hills) that they developed for the SAW works very well out to 150-200 yards even from the M4. It is an easy fix, but he says the brass is fighting it.

Here's a picture that a newspaper reporter took of me a couple of years ago. It was my day off when I got a call on my cell phone from dispatch that a on-duty officer was in pursuit of a armed suspect not far from my home and was asking for backup. With most of my gear always in my take home patrol car, I grabbed my duty belt and vest and headed out to help.

Later, as I was standing on the side of the road I got out my M1 carbine in M1A1 configuration. A newspaper reporter from the local paper came up to ask me a few questions about what was going on (none of which I would answer, I don't like talking to reporters), he then asked "what kind of new fangled assualt rifle do you have? I've never seen anything like that before." I told him it was a M1 carbine, it was designed over 60 years ago and used in WWII and the Korean War. Amazingly, he then asked, "are ya'll allowed to shoot people with 60 year old guns?" :rolleyes:

Although my picture didn't make the paper the reporter was nice enough to email the picture to me.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...51942040-1.jpg

Show him a 1911 and say:

No, I use my 90 year old Pistol. :rofl:

Got to love the press. When I was in Investigations at the Sheriff's Office working sexual assault cases, the press regularly mis-quoted me or gave credit to Highway Patrol credit for my arrests. They had a "thing" about the Sheriff's office. As I say, got to love the press.

BTW, Nice M1A1! I had an M1A1 stock on my trunk gun for awhile.

Faulkner, that's actually a great picture. Bluejeans and home shoes underneath the Sheriff's issue raincoat and hat. It just kinda says, "just getting the job done."

Thanks,
Phil

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I was talking to a guy at the Benning AMTU armory. He said that the main problem with the M855/SS109 is the short barrel. He said it works well (yawing and fragmenting) out of the 20 inch barrel. Out of the 14.5 M4 barrel, the velocity is insufficient past 75-80 yards to reliably yaw OR break up and fragment. The 5.56mm Open Tip, 77 grain MK262 Mod1 (from Black Hills) that they developed for the SAW works very well out to 150-200 yards even from the M4. It is an easy fix, but he says the brass is fighting it.

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Which fix is easier, reissuing the 30 Carbine cartridge or making the Mk262 Mod 1 the standard?:madsmile: Which would we rather see?:cheers:

BTW, PRVI of Serbia now makes a hunting/personal defense round for the AK/SK. It has a round-nose, soft-point bullet - looks like the .30 carbine on steroids! This ammo is at Widener's. A guy on the AK forum already dropped a deer at 80 yds with it. I have ordered a few hundred for goblin defense.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Which fix is easier, reissuing the 30 Carbine cartridge or making the Mk262 Mod 1 the standard?:madsmile: Which would we rather see?:cheers:

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For a full power rifle or even M4, as much as I love the .30 carbine, the MK262 Mod1 77 grain OTBT 5,56mm is far more versatile. Out of a 20" it is extremely disruptive at 300 yards and more. Even out of a 14.5 inch M4, it zaps at 150 to 175+ yards, yaws and breaks up.

A nice little M1 carbine with an M1A1 or modern folding stock would still be a good PDW, though. The M4s, especially with all the tacticool stuff start weighing 8 lbs and are more cumbersome.

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

BTW, PRVI of Serbia now makes a hunting/personal defense round for the AK/SK. It has a round-nose, soft-point bullet - looks like the .30 carbine on steroids! This ammo is at Widener's. A guy on the AK forum already dropped a deer at 80 yds with it. I have ordered a few hundred for goblin defense.

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With my Saiga AK, I use 122 grain HPs and SPs from Barnaul. I have seen some 200+ lb wild pigs that were shot with them. The damage was amazing! The Ruskie open tips have the energy to penetrate, but really fragment and make horrendous wounds. Even with the FMJ, the Yugo M67 flat base style bullets starts to yaw withing 4 inches, where the Russian BT FMJs tend to go about 12+ inches before yawing.

The 30 carbine needs a SP or HP bullet to maximize. I was impressed by the penetration of the carbine in the "Infantry weapons and their effects" video, as well as the rapid yaw of the FMJ in gelatin to maximize the FMJ design.