Recently got a Luger pistol in .45 ACP. The only markings are a three digit serial number (low) surmounted by the letter F. Does anyone know anything about this pistol? TIA.
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Recently got a Luger pistol in .45 ACP. The only markings are a three digit serial number (low) surmounted by the letter F. Does anyone know anything about this pistol? TIA.
How about some pictures?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy
John Martz made some copies of the original .45 ACP Luger submitted to Springfield Armory for testing, but if I remember correctly they were cobbled together out of a highly modified standard Luger. Also, Mike Krause has been making a dead ringer copy of the original .45 ACP Luger for a number of years.
Several German manufacturers:
Waffen-Werle in Dudenhofen bei Speyer
Waffentechnische Werkstätte Nedbal Ges.m.b.H. - Raritaeten
I'll be giving more details later this week, but right now the pistol is in the hands of a local Luger affectianado and if he is correct in what he thinks, it's a pistol I'll probably never shoot. I'll know more by the end of the week.
What does he think it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy
Ok here's what we do know. First it is a custom job made in Switzerland in 1922. The gunmaker is unknown but his (her?) initials on the inside of the frame was L.v.T. He assumes that the v is for von or van. Only 16 are known by this maker and probably no more than 30 were made between 1919 and 1928. All were done to the customer's specs. Some were in the usual calibers but at least one was in 9mm Largo. That one's in a safe in Spain. Some were inlaid with precious metals others plain. The one that I have is a dark gray in colour with a 5 inch barrel. It came with a shoulder stock that appears never to have been used. It has 4 mags, of which only one shows any wear. There's also a form of a drum mag that holds 25 rounds also doesn't appear to have been used. The woman I bought it from said it belonged to her father. As she has no children, she didn't want someone who didn't appreciate it to get it. My biggest problem is that it appears to NEVER to have been registered. I do not want get in trouble with government but on the other hand I don't want them to get it either. So what do I do with it?
I believe the BATF lists individual pistols as well as certain groups of pistols that are legal with an attached shoulder stock. Since your pistol is not a regular production pistol, I believe it is illegal with the shoulder stock. John Martz built custom examples of rare Lugers, but on the pistols with a shoulder stock he made the barrels 16 inches long, which makes them legal.
I once translated a long report by a German gunsmith on the problems he encountered while attempting to get a .45 cal Luger to repeat. Apparently the .45 just does not provide sufficient energy to work the toggle action. The .45 cal Lugers delivered by DWM to the U.S. had to be fed with a specially loaded cartridge. Take a look at the Werle website mentioned above to see the video clip of his side loading .45 Luger. vAt least he´s got his to functiuon reliably.
The standard loading of the .45 ACP certainly contained sufficient energy to cycle the Luger toggle action. The ammunition used in the initial tests was standard Frankford Arsenal ball ammo loaded to a nominal 800 fps. The .45 ACP ammunition sent from Germany was loaded to a slower fps. In the tests Frankford ammunition was loaded to 10, 15, and 25 percent decreased pressure, and the pistol functioned perfectly. Most of the failures to feed involved the action not coming completely into battery with a new round. This happened with both the Frankford Arsenal ammunition as well as the Luger ammunition. Very little spring tension is remaining in the Luger action as the breech block moves completely into battery.
In the initial tests the Frankford Arsenal ammunition averaged 809 fps while the Luger ammunition averaged 763 fps.
Is the shoulder stock numbered to the gun? If so you will not have a problem with BATF as the gun with the stock if made originally together then it is 100% collectable. This would fall into the same group as a Broomhandle Mauser with shoulder stock,Browning Hi-Power with original stock and Lugers with original stocks. An after market stock is not acceptable.
The Broomhandles, Lugers, and High Powers were specifically exempt by the BATF. A copy of any of those pistols fabricated by an individual is not, regardless of the serial number. John Martz made copies of the Luger carbine with a shoulder stock, but had to make the barrels 16" long to be legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
Not all Lugers are legal with a shoulder stock, but specifically the WWI LP.08 (Artillery) and Navy, and the commercial Luger carbine are exempt as a group whether the stock serial number matches or not. On any of the mentioned Lugers a reproduction stock is also legal.
Yo, this here's a Canadian based forum, so BATF&E rules might not apply to Big Daddy! (^&*$ Yankees...)
Would you like for the (^&*$ Yankees...) to go away? I was ask by a moderator if I would participate in the German Service Pistols forum. There are plenty of forums if I am sullying your Canadian forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
I are a &%R* Yank, so I'm insulting myself! Its just that Big Daddy seems to have left the building w/o anyone asking where HE lives!
Hey guys .... :p
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...ks/engarde.gif
I think there was a simple misunderstanding with satire that wasn't intended to offend anyone ... ;)
For the record, our 10,000+ members come from 142 different countries/territories with almost 50% from various U.S. locations and a huge following from England and Australia as well. :clap:
......... and the Milsurps.Com host server is actually located in the great state of TEXAS ... :lol:
Anyway, hug time, but no going steady ... :slap:
Regards,
Doug (Badger)
You forgot all of us stuck :ugh:out here in G e r m a n y:ugh::beerchug::bash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger
Its a secret, you are the recce force! Shhhh!:cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by villiers
Yup, sorry about that ... :banghead:
Both you and Gunner contribute a LOT to the site and it's great to have you guys on board with a European view of collecting ... :thup:
Thanks ... :clap:
Regards,
Doug (Badger)
Don't forget Patrick Chadwick! (Or is that revealing too much? Loose lips and all...)
Thanks ... you're right .. :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
I just checked his profile and realized he's over there as well ... :)
Another terrific contributor to helping others on the site .. :clap:
Regards,
Doug (Badger)
This gun being made in 1922 predates the NFA of 1934 which defined what an SBR (short barrelled rifle) was. IMHO, there is a better than even chance that if an opinion letter was requested from ATF "in the correct manner" it would result in a statement from them that it was legal. The REASON that all the noted Lugers are exempt as a group whether the numbers match is likely BECAUSE of their period of manufacture. Can't speak to how that would apply to Broomhandles and Hi-Power's, just MHO. I'm not sure if that bit about repro stocks, do I recall correctly that those for Hi-Powers have to be of period manufacture? Fortunately the Chinese have taken care of that for us....;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
And of course if the gun is in Canada, this is a moot point.
If it's in Canada, I would contact a local GUNSMITH who deals in used guns (not the CFC) and ask what he does when an unregistered pre-1945 estate handgun surfaces. I believe there are different rules for pre-45 guns. The executor of the estate can (I think?) register the gun and sell it.
If you ask the CFC they won't help, they'll just advise you to turn it in for destruction.
As far as I know(and I have asked those who deal) this gun could be registered in Canada. If a prohib then only a prohib guy could get it. But the key is it's origin. Now, where did Big daddy get to???
The NFA of 1934 did not grandfather in any firearms. Any firearm that fell under the law was at that time regulated by the law. The Lugers that were later exempt from the law were made in the 1914/1918 time period.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert
As to the repro stocks:
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOCH0L T0BACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20226
MAY 29 1981
Dear,
This refers to your letters of March 13 and March 30, 1981, in which you ask that certain Luger and Browning Hi-Power pistols equipped with reproduction shoulder stocks be considered for removal from the provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA).
It is not the policy of this Bureau to render a classification on a Shoulder stock which in and of itself is not subject to the provisions of The Gun Control Act or the NFA. However, as you are aware, certain Luger and Browning Hi-Power pistols when accompanied by original shoulder stocks have been removed from the purview of the NFA.
Our Firearms Classification Panel has examined your request and is their opinion that the above mentioned pistols equipped with currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocks would also be primarily of interest to collectors and not likely be used as weapons. Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock.
It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA.
We trust that the foregoing has responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.
Sincerely yours,
[signature]
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