Question about possible Japanese Type 38 Carbine

Hello,

I am still relatively new to collecting WWII Firearms, but being of Japanese decent, I have been interested in picking up WWII Japanese firearms when I come across them. They are pretty few and far between here in my neck of the woods, but I found one today at a local shop.

Because I am learning as I go, I took a look at it, then came back and hit the Internet to learn more about what I saw. I was told at the shop that it was a Japanese Paratrooper rifle, but my initial investigations make me believe that it is just a bubba'd rifle.

The barrel is short, so it seems to be a Type 38 Carbine. Stupidly, I forgot to check the Type markings, but based on what I saw, I am pretty sure it is a Type 38. The wood was sporterized, as it was cut near the end and rounded off, and is missing the last barrel band. Also, the bolt handle is bent, which seems very strange, since every bolt handle I have seen on Japanese rifles are straight, unless they are sniper bolts, but the snipers seem to have long bent bolt handles. This bolt handle seemed too short to be a sniper.

Also, the butt of the stock is cut to allow for a sling, which is something I have not seen on Japanese rifles before either.

Anyway, I am going back tomorrow to the shop to get more information about it, and look at the markings a little more carefully, but I am still very new to all of this, so I thought I should post and see if anyone could help me out with initial impressions. Sound like a bubba'd rifle?

Thanks!

Sounds like a Post-War Siamese Police carbine conversion.

Follow link: http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/thai1.html

Welcome to the site tokey.... :thup:

I assume you've gone through the Japan - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) and checked out what you saw against the examples there?

Also, I know we have at least two knowledgeable collectors in the Japanese rifles on here, claven2 and riceone.

If they don't see this thread, you may want to drop them a PM (or an email if their site options permit it) to see if they can help you out further.

Finally, see if the local store owner will let you take a few digital pics for us to view. Tell him you want to compare markings etc., against library research material you can't bring to the store. :)

Regards,
Badger

Thanks for the welcome, Badger! I most definitely went through the Japan library, and that is why I am confused about this rifle, as it doesn't seem to fit in any of the categories there.

Thanks, I will PM them if they do not see this, but right now, I am thinking that soldat is right, and it is a siamese conversion...

Oh, one more question for anyone in the know...this shop had not decided yet what they are going to put the rifle up for...but if it is a siamese conversion, any idea on what good value for it would be?

The store is still under the impression that it is a paratrooper rifle, so I suspect they are going to make it a little pricey...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tokey

Oh, one more question for anyone in the know...this shop had not decided yet what they are going to put the rifle up for...but if it is a siamese conversion, any idea on what good value for it would be?

The store is still under the impression that it is a paratrooper rifle, so I suspect they are going to make it a little pricey...

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If it is a siamese conversion GRAB IT FOR CHRISTS SAKE!
There were less than 2500 rifles converted in total, even with the bent bolt, if you found a replacement it'd be worth your while.
The sling cut and sporterization are legitimate, but there should be a band at the front of the stock. It is basially a shortened Type 38 rifle made to mimic the feel and look of the US M1 Carbine which they prefered, but which were in low supply. They called it a Type 91.

You'd be lucky if it is an actual police carbine, as only 1000 or so were issued to them. Anything with a serial number higher is likley a Siamese army carbine. The Siamese serial number is in some script on the reciever ring, but there will also be the japanese serial number on the side of the receiver. You'll be able to tell if it's a police or paratroop conversion based on the siamese armoury stamp that takes the place of the imperial mum, if you can get a picture for me I can tell you which, unfortunatly I dont have an online example to show.

THe police one is a circular shield, with a katana behind it, the hilt showing at the top left, and the point of the blade at the bottom right. Think of a no-smoking sign.

The army carbines (which may have been issued to paratroops as well, but definatly not exclusively) have a different stamp, which kind of looks like a flaming circular sun.

Just for reference, here's mine. The only other one I've heard of in Canada.

Officially, a Royal Thai Police Type 91 Carbine (Thailand is post-war Siam). THis particular one is the lowest existing serial number on record:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...akaright-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sakaleft-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sakarear-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kafrontt-1.jpg

This one will be in the Japan MKL for proper reference as soon as my old man returns with the digicam.

Skippy,
How does that Type 91 shoot? It looks like it would be a very handy little carbine.

Alright, I went back to the shop today to look at the piece, armed with my new found information. This is definitely a Siamese conversion, and it has the circle with the Katana, so it is a police one. I am waiting for them to set a price for it still...any ideas on what is reasonable price-wise for this?

I agree. It's a Siamese/thai police carbine.

As for price, ther market is small despite the rarity as they aren't really core Japanese items and not alot of guys collect siamese weapons. Arisaka collectors may or may not be interested.

I'd expect it to be priced less than $400 in virtually every market. In some cases, MUCH less.

It has NOTHING to do with Paratroopers.

Claven's probably right price-wise.
These are valued highly only by a few hardcore collectors, hence why there is still so little mainstream information.

I've been reading the above and not sure I know the difference in a police carbine and an Army one. The one I have has the Siamese Crest and the serial number in Siames just under it. All Japanese marking have been taken off. The bolt has been slimed down, the know is not a fat and its turned down. Also the shoulder behind the bold root has been cut at an angle leaving it original heigth at the front slooping down to the race at the back. Couple years ago I paid $350 for it. Sort of thought at the time that I got it cheap. riceone.

Easiest way to tell:
Does the stamp on the receiver ring look like a shield with a sword through it, or like a stylized fireball?

Fireball denotes army, and the shield is police issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by riceone

I've been reading the above and not sure I know the difference in a police carbine and an Army one. The one I have has the Siamese Crest and the serial number in Siames just under it. All Japanese marking have been taken off. The bolt has been slimed down, the know is not a fat and its turned down. Also the shoulder behind the bold root has been cut at an angle leaving it original heigth at the front slooping down to the race at the back. Couple years ago I paid $350 for it. Sort of thought at the time that I got it cheap. riceone.

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Hi, this post is very informative; however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

I have one Thia Carbine and its made a little differrent form the ones pictured above. The one I have has had the bolt handle and knob turned down smaller. It also has had the barrel turned smaller from the front sight back to where the stock comes. Then left full for about 2 inches and turned down again back to the rear sight. I gave $350 several years ago. I'll see if I can post a picture of the carbine and right under it one I made.

Edit: The picture of the crest would not upoad, I'll take another picture and post it later.

Not sure if those modifications are legit or if they're the work of bubba.
THe stock dishing and bent bolt aren't standard, thats for sure.

Bubba did not make this carbines.

Notice the crest and the serial numbers across the receiver under the crest.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02591-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02593-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02595-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02596-1.jpg

Bubba did not make this COPY of one - a machinest with an engraver friend did.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02592-1.jpg

I see. THe stamp denotes army issue. I wonder if the army bent the bolts and the police left them standard?
Also, the police issue ones should have the Japanese serial number and manufacturer stamp on the side of the receiver still... not sure if the army scrubbed them or not.

Skippy, where do you get your information? riceone.

With regards to the siamese rifles I'm working off of my own intarweb research and conversations with a fellow in the states who's writing a definitive work on these rifles.....

I actually owe him a few pictures of my siamese type 91 for his upcoming book.

Look at this site:
thai

My carbine looks exactly like the one pictured in the article. If I am wrong I have some people I want to share the information with. riceone.

Hmmm... not a very usefull article, this is the only paragraph about these carbines:

"About 1956 Bangkok Arsenal began converting 6.5mm Arisakas to a very handy
carbine for police use. This is really one nice light rifle . It is configured to look
like the M1 carbine, but the cartridge is much better. It has a Charkra Crest and using the Siamese systems of numbers for serial number."

It makes no mention of what the conversion process entailed besides mentioning that they were cut into carbines that resemble the m1.

Actually, the rifle pictured at the bottom doesn't really look like the police Type 91, notice how the front of the stock is cut flush, and not left with the little knob a-la M1 carbine. I'd be interested to find out where the author is getting his information, it's funny how he calls the bottom rifle a police carbine with Thai crest and numbers, but fails to show either. Also, the picture near the bottom in which the crest is visible is an army issue rifle, NOT a police issue.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, only that the author of that article is almost uslessly vague (at least where the police carbines are concerned), and that the rifle pictured and labled "Thai Arisaka police carbine" doesn't look the way I'd expect a Police issue carbine to.

Compare these two photos, the top is the one the author posted, and the bottom is an actual police issue carbine next to an M1 carbine:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...haic1JPG-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...akaright-1.jpg

Look at the difference between the nose of the stock, the lack of a dished out portion for the bolt, the straight bolt, and the length of the barrel.

I'm not sure if the rifles converted for army issue were done in that fashion, but I'd say it's most definatly NOT police issue.

A-Ha!
I just went over a bit of the hard copy I have regarding these rifles, the one pictured in that article, as well as the one you posted earlier, are indeed Royal Thai Army issue Type 91 carbines.

Features on the army issue include the bent bolt, the dished out stock, and the flush cut stock nose. Also, the army carbines should have the Japanese numbers and codes completely removed, as you said yours has.
Also, if you check out the rear sight ladder on your army carbine, you'll notice that the original ladder has been cut into three sections, the middle one thrown away, and the top and bottom two welded together to form a shorter rear sight ladder. Th police issue carbines retain the original Japanese full-length ladder.

If you know the author of that article, you might ask him to correct his information.

ANother thing I should mention. THe author of that article claims that Thia carbines were first converted "around 1956". Well, Type 91 comes from the Buddhist calendar year of 2491, which translates to our year 1948.......

I sent the site with the picture not for the information but to show the picture of a rifle just like mine. One thing I do know you can never be certain about anything when it comes to rifles out of the orient. riceone.

Frank Allan, Palm Coast, FL, is the "guru" on Siamese weapons, aauthor of the booik on Siamese rifles and carbines and is writing the T-38 book. Feel sure any 38 varient will be included.

The upper photo is the so called Siamese "police" carbine. Some years back I had correspondence with a French rifle magazine writer on this subject and he had a letter/number designation for the "police" carbine. He said they were also issued to the Army. No idea on the source of his information. The center section of the rear sight on the "police" carbine has been removed and top welded to the bottom.

Severeal years ago I was invited to go through a large shipping crate of Arisakas in the basement of Springfield Sporters, among the lot were 50 or so of the "police" carbines, all with standard 38 bolts, not bent and no Siaamese numbers. Price was $50 each.

On the bottom photo, have never encountered such a rifle. Suggest you bounce this off Frank, the_allans_fela@yahoo.com.


so

My information is coming from Frank Allen, he'll repeat everything I've said in my last few posts, as well as what I'm about to say.

Ronin, If you're referring to the pictures I posted above you've got it backwards. The top one labled "6.5mm Jap" is an ARMY ISSUE carbine, as is the one riceone posted above, notice the circular sun-like army stamp (It's actually a flaming throwing ring, like the one Xena Warrior Princess used), the bottom one, pictured with the M1 carbine is POLICE ISSUE, the stamp being quite different from the circular army one. It is the ARMY ISSUE carbines that have the altered rear sight.

Maybe this will help clairify what I've been saying, I dont have any photos which aren't copyrighted, so I made this "artists interpretation" in photoshop:

A "chakra" is what we'd call an "emblem".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sestamps-1.jpg

The chakra on the left is what is stamped on the carbines which were issued to the Royal Thai Police, those squiggley lines are actually ornate drawings on the round shield with the katana behind it.

The chakra on the right is what is stamped on carbines which were issued to the Royal Thai Army, it's supposed to be a circular throwing disc with eight flaming blades. THis is the traditional emblem of the Siamese/Thai army.

Recently several Type 91s have surfaced that have police crest as indicated in another reply. These seem to have serial numbers in Thai number characters that are under 1,000, although I am aware of only five being reported. These have the police crest as noted in another reply. These have the "91" Thai number characters on the receiver top. That is the key to the designation and is ALL we can know about its designation.

We believe that the Type 91 designation was maintained for the Army version that has the army crest on the breech and just the serial number. However, this is just supposition as no record of the production/fabrication has been found in Thailand. The range of the Army carbine serial numbers reported or observed is 1139 - 2255.

I hope that this little bit of additional information is of interest. This is my first posting on this forum.

Frank Allan

Welcome to the forum, it'll be great to get your knowledge floating around in here.