History Channel Show

A guy was demonstrating the differences in power of several WWII rifles and cartridges. He was firing at about 20 feet into a block of what appeared to be modeling clay sitting on a log. The .30-06 bored a baseball-sized hole through it and the block stayed on the log. The M1 Carbine completely blew up the clay block, which flew off the log, and the bullet stayed in the clay. Pretty cool demonstration of transfer of energy compared to over-penetration, and the very reason the .30 Carbine is so ideal as a personal/home defense weapon.

I shot a box (actually bag out of the 50lb box) of old sheet rock mud with a 55 grain M193 5.56mm from a 20" 1/12" AR15 one time. Wow! I'd love to see that carbine demo on History channel.

Do you happen to remember the name of the program? I've seen a couple concerning ballistics, but never one that included the Carbine.

I saw the one the other night about.Snipers excellent

I saw the one Inland was talking about a couple of months ago and I was amazed at the damage the carbine round did to the clay.
(So was the guy who did the demonstration!)

The whole back side of the large block of clay was blown out.

It may have been the Military Channel - I'll see if I can find a listing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cafdfw

I saw the one Inland was talking about a couple of months ago and I was amazed at the damage the carbine round did to the clay.
(So was the guy who did the demonstration!)

The whole back side of the large block of clay was blown out.

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We do underestimate the power of these little PDWs. Even though we love them, we have been inundated with years of propaganda about the "thick clothing" "lack of stopping power" and "only a pistol cartridge" myths. S I have said in the past, I killed a black tail deer with one shot, and actually through the years killed several feral dogs in the Sierras with it using ball ammo. One shot each. (Before the PETA crowd squawks, packs of feral dogs who have been abandoned by city dwellers and locals in the foothills and mountains band together in large packs and take out domestic animals on the fringe. In our case, it was horses and pony they were after. I know one hunter who was attacked in Big Sur area)

Hi,

at the screening room was a clip about the weapons used in WWII, and there you can see the carbine bullet flying through an german steel helmet without any problem. So it is powerfull and by the bullet design it will stop an enemy. I think the most have forgotten that they cant compare a Carbine with an Garand, and that this rifle wasnt designed for the same tasks like the Garands.

Regards

Gunner

Another under-rated weapon was the STG43/44! It was a long step ahead of the carbine in power and usefulness! While the carbine was designed as a PDW, the STG44 was a true assault rifle. Despite what the Russians and Mr. Kalashnikov may say, it was the inspiration for the AK47 concept. Yes the Russian were working on the cartridge long before, but like the M1 carbine cartridge in the beginning, it was a cartridge with weapons designed around it. I would almost give my left arm to have a semi auto STG44!

PS. I handled a bore plugged STG44 when I was about 19, and loved it. It is heavier, and I did not mean to say it was designed to fill the same role as the carbine. The STG is a main battle weapon. Often, the carbine (especially in M2 trim) was used to try to push the envelope and pretend to be an STG44.

I was quite taken aback with the weight of the STG44 also. Like you RM, I would give up body parts for a STG44 but I want the real deal!

I also like to have one but the repro gun BD44 is out of my price range $ 3526.
I`ve seen this one running for $ 7.700!!!

A Sturmgewehr / assault rifle mod. 44 (MP 44 or StG 44), code "wj 45",

calibre 8 x 33, no. 4635. Matching numbers. 30 rounds. Optional single -, continuous fire or fire burst. Left on housing marked "MP 44", on magazine well stamped "4635 G/45" at the bottom "wj" with eagle/"WaA623" = HASAG Hugo Schneider AG, Oberweißbach/T. factory. Various further codes with WaA acceptance stamps of suppliers. Mixed surface finish from last 1945 production phase: housing darkly phosphatised, hand guard and grip frame blued. Weapon without rust film etc., only wear and storage marks. Wooden stock spotty, can be improved by gentle cleaning. Correct blued magazine with "StG44". Emergency leather strap. Very good overall condition. Length 94 cm. BKA exemption required.

Regards

Gunner

From a couple of WWII vets I worked with. It seems to depend on where you served.

In Europe one shot easily convinced a German that his personal war was over. In the Pacific, at least one, Jap sapper needed 5 hits from a Carbine to stop his attack on a tank. My coworker, traded his carbine for a M1903. He reported that one shot stopped the (obsenity deleted) Nips every time.

My bottom line is that I am glad that we have people like this so I can sit next to my stove in MT happy warm and comfortable.

I do believe that Audie Murphy preferred a carbine. He was comfortable with the "trade-off" of cartridge power (30-06) with close-up, quick reaction shooting (carbine).

'Despite what the Russians and Mr. Kalashnikov may say, it was the inspiration for the AK47 concept.'

This is a fact. The guys on the AK forums hate this idea and always refer to M. Kalashnikov strongly denying it, but there's no way he came up with essentially the same gun totally independently, especially considering the new German weapon was used in Russia for the first time and some would have been captured early on. Speaking of the AK, there's a new cartridge made by PRVI and sold by Widener's that has a round-nose bullet with exposed lead nose - looks like a great defense/hunting round

7.76x39 M67 Yugo flat base FMJ yaws withing 4 inches, and does well. The Russian (Wolf and Barnaul) hollow points and the soft points do unbelievable damage. They HPs become almost frangible and the SPs break up too. I've seen wild boar pice of the damage done by them and it is impressive!

I've had several conversations about the effectiveness of the M1 carbine with my Dad, who is a WW2 combat vet. He was a forward observer and, as he puts it, wasn't looking for combat, just information. As long as he didn't try shots past 100 yards, he was very satisfied with his carbine.

Often he would rapidly empty one or two full magazines in the right direction and then bug out. Being on the receiving end of that forced his adversary keep his head down and seek cover long enough for him to slip away.

When he was really close to trouble, two to the chest and one to the head solved the problem just fine.

It seemed to work 'cause he's still here to talk about it.

I had no idea that yaw cycle was a factor in the effectiveness of the carbine till I saw this info.
There's a drawing of Typical .30 Caliber Carbine Wound Profiles about half way down the page.
M1 Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

By modern standards, .30 carbine FMJ has a late/deep yaw cycle in gel & mammals. Might be another clue about the differences in reported effectiveness against different enemies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gunner

I also like to have one but the repro gun BD44 is out of my price range $ 3526.
I`ve seen this one running for $ 7.700!!!

A Sturmgewehr / assault rifle mod. 44 (MP 44 or StG 44), code "wj 45",

calibre 8 x 33, no. 4635. Matching numbers. 30 rounds. Optional single -, continuous fire or fire burst. Left on housing marked "MP 44", on magazine well stamped "4635 G/45" at the bottom "wj" with eagle/"WaA623" = HASAG Hugo Schneider AG, Oberweißbach/T. factory. Various further codes with WaA acceptance stamps of suppliers. Mixed surface finish from last 1945 production phase: housing darkly phosphatised, hand guard and grip frame blued. Weapon without rust film etc., only wear and storage marks. Wooden stock spotty, can be improved by gentle cleaning. Correct blued magazine with "StG44". Emergency leather strap. Very good overall condition. Length 94 cm. BKA exemption required.

Regards

Gunner

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I WANT IT! Of course, I want a lot of things that I can't have. Oh well, if I win the lottery and move to Oregon....

Rangemaster,

if you move to Oregon make sure that there will be a house for me too! And then lets look how we can deal with the lottery.

Regards

Gunner

Ist Gutt! I think it is more likely that I will see the "Second Coming" before I see a lottery win!

The Stg is a cool looking gun..but it's an over built turkey @11.5lbs, it weighs as much as a Garand!...While the elegant carbine weighs about half that loaded! is shorter and is rated with the same effective range (300m) as the Stg. Not saying the 30 carbine round is more powerful but is rated with the same effective range... IIRC The round will defeat the 10ga thick (a tad thicker than 1/8th") NATO penetration test plate @100yds every time...Though not designed to be an assault weapon the fast handling carbine was certainly used effectively as an assault weapon...You could even get one with a folding pistol gripped stock too!!..and it's original specs wanted it to be a selective fire weapon. Maybe not the "Official" first Assault rifle, but if something walks and talks like a duck....

I saw the show on the carbine and the ballistic clay. I think it was in a story about the french foreign legen. The french liked the weight and the damage done by the cacbine. The guy first fired a 1903/a3 into a 12 inch block of ballistic clay it made a 8 inch hole. When the carbine hit the same size block it blew the block off the log. When the shooter picked it up he was suprised, the clay was in a flat sheet completly laid open. I remember the french used arother round that caused an unexpected amount damage, maybe in one of their ww1 French rifles. I saw the show twice. Notice shows that have something to do with the French F.L. on the History or Miltary Channel it will show up again.

The 7.63 Mauser pistol round (called 7.62x25 by Com-block) is pretty impressive, too. Years ago, I had a C96 with a stock. Very accurate. BTW: Mike Venturino has an article about the M2 Carbine vs 7.62x25 PPSH "Pappashaw" in one of the gun annuals. Funny to see him write about anything but old west guns (He is considered by many the Guru of old West guns in SASS. He even added the nick name "Duke"!). I didn't buy it and read it yet, but just scanned it. I saw once or twice he seemed to suffer from the same prejudices as other uninformed about its effectiveness. I'll pick it up this week and let you know.

See, Charlie, I kept it on thread!:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

semi auto STG44

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Hallo, rangemaster, I'm a member from Italy and put an order for a Dittrich SSD BD-44 (semi auto MP-43/44 replica) this morning, when it arrives will post some first impression.
Best regards, Claudio, Firenze IT

NO substitute for the range and power of the 8mm Mauser. Current usage in the Serb M76 AK sniper.No History channel hokum.