Enfield Sniper

I noticed on forums that some individuals refurb Enfields. I just picked up a No.4 Mk.1T sniper that is in fairly decent shape but of course needs some work. The bolt is nice and tight, and the barrel is sharp but the stock and other parts could used some love. I have repro pads for it, and of course will need a mount and scope, but I wanted everyones thoughts on how to proceed. Should I refurb it or just clean up the stock and keep as is.

If you're in the U.S., you might want to start with Brian Dick at BDL (see ad in top left corner of forum) before you start sawing and nailing (just kidding) ... :lol:

Pics would be helpful for us to see what you're starting with ... ;)

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by Badger

If you're in the U.S., you might want to start with Brian Dick at BDL (see ad in top left corner of forum) before you start sawing and nailing (just kidding) ... :lol:

Pics would be helpful for us to see what you're starting with ... ;)

Regards,
Badger

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Pics will be on the way soon.

Might I be so bold as to suggest Tower06 that there are only a few non committal answers to your main question because making up even a half decent No4T isn't just a case of getting yourself a No4T, the pads, a bracket and a scope, then screwing the lot together. If you are hell bent on doing it, might i be so bold as to suggest that you get yourself the whole set of bits and when you've done it, maybe I could explain the technical and optical problems that you WILL face.

None are insurmountable but the unwary can soon fall into a trap that turns into a chasm. And one that you can get into, past the point of no return VERY quickly and end up with a pile of tat.

But you can do it and end up with a perfectly useable, reliable and good repro No4T, albeit a fake.

You get the bits and we'll all walk slowly through it

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None are insurmountable but the unwary can soon fall into a trap that turns into a chasm. And one that you can get into, past the point of no return VERY quickly and end up with a pile of tat.

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Last year I collected Repro pads and mount and have a suitable donor rifle that already has been drilled and tapped for a aftermarket scope mount. I have plugged the old holes and I'm ready to drill and tap for the repro pads. Next hurtle is BA taps and mounting screws.

I'll be watching for more info on this..

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Might I be so bold as to suggest Tower06 that there are only a few non committal answers to your main question because making up even a half decent No4T isn't just a case of getting yourself a No4T, the pads, a bracket and a scope, then screwing the lot together. If you are hell bent on doing it, might i be so bold as to suggest that you get yourself the whole set of bits and when you've done it, maybe I could explain the technical and optical problems that you WILL face.

None are insurmountable but the unwary can soon fall into a trap that turns into a chasm. And one that you can get into, past the point of no return VERY quickly and end up with a pile of tat.

But you can do it and end up with a perfectly useable, reliable and good repro No4T, albeit a fake.

You get the bits and we'll all walk slowly through it

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I think that maybe I was misunderstood in my original post. The rifle I picked up is a original sniper #AT4242. My question is about refurbing it or leaving it as it is. It came w/o the pads mount or scope. I do have repro pads for it however and am going to try to find the mount and scope for it.

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Originally Posted by tower06

I think that maybe I was misunderstood in my original post. The rifle I picked up is a original sniper #AT4242. My question is about refurbing it or leaving it as it is. It came w/o the pads mount or scope. I do have repro pads for it however and am going to try to find the mount and scope for it.

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I think that what Peter was getting at is that the mounting of the pads and bracket and getting the whole lot central / aquare is the hard bit. Heres is part of a an old post of Peters :

..................Then the process of attaching the unfinished front pad to the rifle commenced. After this was firmly attached/soft soldered/screwed, a shell mill cutter would mill the front mounting spigot and bracket mating surface to an EXACT depth so that the round bracket mating surface – that’s the circular surface to the right and surrounding the actual spigot - is now at an exact distance from an imaginary line along the centre of the bore. The tool checkers checked the accuracy of these operations every evening during a short floating break period
You can now see that while the pad on your rifle is fixed to the body, it is actually aligned with great accuracy to the exact centre line of the bore ….., regardless of its relation to the body. This is the reason why that you can, if you are silly, desperate or just unwise, transfer a front pad to another rifle ….., and the centres of the screws align and fit, it won’t necessarily be either square on or axially correct for the rifle. The same goes for the bracket…………….

Watch eBay, original sets of pads do turn up from time to time. Bubbas the world over think alike it seems. :D

Forgive them Peter, they still don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I think that what Peter was getting at is that the mounting of the pads and bracket and getting the whole lot central / aquare is the hard bit. Heres is part of a an old post of Peters :

..................Then the process of attaching the unfinished front pad to the rifle commenced. After this was firmly attached/soft soldered/screwed, a shell mill cutter would mill the front mounting spigot and bracket mating surface to an EXACT depth so that the round bracket mating surface – that’s the circular surface to the right and surrounding the actual spigot - is now at an exact distance from an imaginary line along the centre of the bore. The tool checkers checked the accuracy of these operations every evening during a short floating break period
You can now see that while the pad on your rifle is fixed to the body, it is actually aligned with great accuracy to the exact centre line of the bore ….., regardless of its relation to the body. This is the reason why that you can, if you are silly, desperate or just unwise, transfer a front pad to another rifle ….., and the centres of the screws align and fit, it won’t necessarily be either square on or axially correct for the rifle. The same goes for the bracket…………….

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My apologies for the mistake. It sounded like it was thought I was making a replica sniper. I'm actually trying to restore/refurb (whatever term you like) to close to original condition as possible.

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Originally Posted by tower06

My apologies for the mistake. It sounded like it was thought I was making a replica sniper. I'm actually trying to restore/refurb (whatever term you like) to close to original condition as possible.

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I was wondering about that too when you said it was a No4(T), but guessed you had one with the pads removed, hence my last post.

To Luckydog, with refitted pads you have some hope of getting a functional rifle. It will not be exactly collimated of course, but as close as one can get without replicating the original manufacturing process.

It would be interesting to know if the Israelis for example machined the pads after fitting to the rifle. Probably they did not, given the finished Israeli pads that turn up. Presumably also they were able to achieve a satisfactory result as they are usually quite practical about their weapons, aren't they?

I dont believe there is any misunderstanding :

You have a 4T without pads
You have pads
You want to fit the pads to the 4T without pads.

The information from Peter & others is just a warning that you do not just screw the pads on and they fit and the scope will collimate.

One additional note here: If you are using a more "modern" scope which does not show cross hair movement when zeroing, you may not realize that your optics are far from being optically centered when you sight the rifle in. If its far off center you may:
Run out of travel when shooting at long range
Run out of windage adjustment under certain conditions
Have imprecise or "sticky" adjustments
Reduced clarity or other optical aberrations like "fish eye" on one side
Very slighty reduced light gathering quality
Plus some other dramas that don't come to mind immediately!

Yah, it may work OK for giggles, but its not likely to be RIGHT!

This doesn't address the issues concerning pad parallelism or other mechanical fitment dramas, BTW!

On the Israeli No4T's, due to the small (?) quantity that they produced, then I should assume that they didn't production-line the process but did it on an individual rifle basis as did Enfield when they started. Indeed, as did Hollands to start with until they realised that to make ANY progress, they'd have to get to grips and start afresh with known product (from BSA). The rest is history. Even Long Branch didn't get it right until H&H went there and put them right about production lining the whole process. The trouble there was that scope production couldn't keep up with the 'new' speeded up process..

Where were we...............? Ah yes, What I'm going to do in the next few weeks is to tell how you can do a reasonably good and accurate home No4T conversion given that you've got a reasonable set of pads, a bit of nouse, half a brain, a repro bracket and a telescope. I can't comment on the commercial telescopes that have been mentioned except to say that whether it's a moving wire (No32) telescope or a moving image telescope, the optical principles will be the same.

This is for Tower06............ If you already have a 'No4T' rifle, stripped of its pads, then you face a real uphill struggle because the chances of finding a set of pads is pretty remote. And a set that exactly match your threaded holes in the body are...., well...., even pretty more remote to say the very least. BUT there is a way and the engineers among you will soon see where I'm going.

What you need to do Tower (and anyone else out there in difficult land) is to get a set of pads made up to size WITHOUT THE SCREW HOLES. You then soft solder and cramp the front pad to the side of the body (or cramp it tightly to the body across the centre hole). You get a concentric centre punch ground to the EXACT core diameter of the 4BA screw holes in the body. Then, supporting the pad, gently but firmly centre punch through the threaded hole into the pad. Remove the pad and using a 4BA clearance drill, drill through the pad where you have marked the holes.

That's a very simple method of reverse engineering

As for the rear pad then using measurements taken from the rifle, mark out where the large 1/4BSF hole will be and bore this out with a 1/4" drill. There's a bit of leeway here..... Now, using this hole, bolt the pad to the body side.

Here is the problem now because you cannot get the nice new specially made centre punch into the hole to mark the pad. But what you CAN do is to machine the threaded portion of a 4BA screw to a concentric point. NOW, put a engineers marking blue onto the sharp point of the screw and carefully insert it into the threaded hole fron the INSIDE of the body until it just touches and therefore marks the exact centre of the required screw hole. Now do the same to the second screw hole.

Now drill through and countersink the outside. I know that this works because a batch of stripped L42 barrelled actions were released into the UK gun trade in the early 80's and I oversaw a friend of mine doing it. I realise that we had a large machine shop and he was another long time Armourer, but he did it.

There. Now Tower06, you are at the same start point as those who are about to embark on a damned good, reasonable accurate replica No4 sniper (let's not cal the replicas No4T's but No4 snipers.....)

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Where were we...............? Ah yes, What I'm going to do in the next few weeks is to tell how you can do a reasonably good and accurate home No4T conversion given that you've got a reasonable set of pads, a bit of nouse, half a brain, a repro bracket and a telescope. .

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:)A definition link for the non-British types (its down the page a bit):

Nous Definition | Definition of Nous at Dictionary.com

If starting this clone project with a standard No4 how concerned should I be about the pad mount area on the receiver being parallel with the bore center line.

Getting the pads square and parallel does not guarantee that the repro scope mount well be. My luck I'll get the pads right and the scope mount well be cattywumpous.

Don't worry about that mad crate breaker. You'll be fine if you follow the instructions as I cover this. Part 1 has been done and will be up soon and I'm into part 2. I also cover JMoores comments about using modern moving image scope as opposed to the No32 type moving wire type scopes

Are you ready for the long haul

Looks like this is going to become a very valuable thread. I'll watch intently.

I can't thank you enough Peter. I've had these bits for almost a year and want to get on with this project.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I know that this works because a batch of stripped L42 barrelled actions were released into the UK gun trade in the early 80's and I oversaw a friend of mine doing it. I realise that we had a large machine shop and he was another long time Armourer, but he did it.

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Hi Peter - I was interested to read that and was just wondering how it might have come about - presumably all l42s were fully wooded when converted from 4ts - so any idea why would they have been sold in this state?

Ben

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I dont believe there is any misunderstanding :

You have a 4T without pads
You have pads
You want to fit the pads to the 4T without pads.

The information from Peter & others is just a warning that you do not just screw the pads on and they fit and the scope will collimate.

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Thanks. I appreciate the info. I plan on taking my time with the project, and hopefully locating as much in the way or original period mounting hardware as possible.

if anyones interested i have just built a replica no4 sniper for surplus sniper service rifle competition here in western australia, i used a no4 mk1/2 ftr'd 1954 numrich repro pads and mount and a weaver k2.5 scope, repro covers from a guy in the uk and a repro 1942 milsco knox sling, i have photos but am new to the site and have no idea how to attatch them. i know its not a real no4t but its a faithfull reproduction as per the rules of the ssaa here in australia and all up including the rifle it stands at about $1000au which by my reckoning is about a quarter of the price of a genuine item(if i could find one!)
info on posting pics would be helpful as i'm a computer duffer!!!!:

Welcome, Tarplett!

Perhaps this will sort posting pics for you (Before 2009 I'd never posted a picture before either!):

How do I post pics? - A tutorial by Wally - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

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Originally Posted by tarplett

if anyones interested i have just built a replica no4 sniper for surplus sniper service rifle competition here in western australia, i used a no4 mk1/2 ftr'd 1954 numrich repro pads and mount and a weaver k2.5 scope, repro covers from a guy in the uk and a repro 1942 milsco knox sling, i have photos but am new to the site and have no idea how to attatch them. i know its not a real no4t but its a faithfull reproduction as per the rules of the ssaa here in australia and all up including the rifle it stands at about $1000au which by my reckoning is about a quarter of the price of a genuine item(if i could find one!)
info on posting pics would be helpful as i'm a computer duffer!!!!:

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I have the exact parts for my clone build. Looking forward to photo's of your rifle with the K2.5 mounted.

Would not a set of the Israeli pads without holes drilled in the rear be a good start? If your starting with a standard #4 and your drilling holes for the first time there would be no problem matching up to pre-drilled holes.

...MJ...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

You could easily come unstuck unless you follow the rear pad screw format pretty closely because very close to where the holes are is the induction hardened area for the left hand bolt locking shoulder. Just take care.....

This was a permissable 'relaxation in specification' at H&H, where the front pad could be brought to the rear a smidgin (That is another REME Armourers technical phrase that you wild and untamed colonials and antipodeans need to learn. It indicates a measurement slightly more than a gnats knacker but not as great as '...a sausage in the High Street') in order that the rear pad screw holes could be brought rearwards by a similarly small amount.

At H&H of course, it didn't matter if the drill veered off course after skidding off the hard area. The rifle was simply side lined and returned, presumably to scrap!

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Originally Posted by MJ1

Would not a set of the Israeli pads without holes drilled in the rear be a good start? If your starting with a standard #4 and your drilling holes for the first time there would be no problem matching up to pre-drilled holes.

...MJ...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

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I'll be installing on a existing sniper with holes already drilled.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

This was a permissable 'relaxation in specification' at H&H, where the front pad could be brought to the rear a smidgin (That is another REME Armourers technical phrase that you wild and untamed colonials and antipodeans need to learn. It indicates a measurement slightly more than a gnats knacker but not as great as '...a sausage in the High Street') in order that the rear pad screw holes could be brought rearwards by a similarly small amount.

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Some of use colonials are know for our technical terms, although different from out British cousins they are the finest measurement know to mankind. Specifically the term "RCH" or "Red **** Hair". this is one decimal point finer than the normal "CH" measurement.:madsmile:

Sorry if I have pushed the limits of respectability.

"I'll be installing on a existing sniper with holes already drilled."

I see, that should be easy,LOL.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

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Originally Posted by MJ1

"I'll be installing on a existing sniper with holes already drilled."

I see, that should be easy,LOL.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

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Not sure I see whats funny, but ok.

Oh, its quite funny until you try, then- not so much...

Especially if you are trying to maintain the original exacting specifications- which never quite work out w/ drill bits- they're not precision tools!

ANyone see these before?

No.4(T) Enfield sniper rifle No.32 Scope bracket - eBay (item 120528129934 end time Feb-14-10 13:31:29 PST)

Peter, are you involved with these at all?

No, nothing to do with me. How I HATE these people who quote me for their own ends without as much as a by-your-leave. It makes my blood boil really! I could say more but I've said enough.

It's nice to know that when I made some complimentary comments about a remanufactured IIW bracket, those comments stayed firmly where they were written and nowhere else. On the forum

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Oh, its quite funny until you try, then- not so much...

Especially if you are trying to maintain the original exacting specifications- which never quite work out w/ drill bits- they're not precision tools!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

No, nothing to do with me. How I HATE these people who quote me for their own ends without as much as a by-your-leave. It makes my blood boil really! I could say more but I've said enough.

It's nice to know that when I made some complimentary comments about a remanufactured IIW bracket, those comments stayed firmly where they were written and nowhere else. On the forum

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Any repro mounts you would recommend, or should I hold out for an original?

Not sure I see whats funny, but ok.

If you don't have one you will need to get a sense of humor for this game.

Cheers

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...75953293-1.jpg

I bought a half dozen of Roger's brackets and four of Rob's IWS brackets and they are here. I bought them in the white s I can finish them properly with Manganese Parkerizing phosphate and Suncorite 259 properly baked on. The problem is finding the time to do them.

Great target MJ, just great. So you shoot those Swiss pos's too?

My junk pile.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02/k3105-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I bought a half dozen of Roger's brackets and four of Rob's IWS brackets and they are here. I bought them in the white s I can finish them properly with Manganese Parkerizing phosphate and Suncorite 259 properly baked on. The problem is finding the time to do them.

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Just to clarify, I use Parcolubrite 2 phosphating on the brackets (what Long Branch used) and they are then painted with this: Technical Info -> Zero-Rust Canada : SMJ Products & Services for High Performance Barrier Coat

I've done this to a No4 action that was then rebarreled and the smith who did it was very impressed with how the finish survived the barreling vise and wrench undamaged.

:cheers:

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Originally Posted by MJ1

Not sure I see whats funny, but ok.

If you don't have one you will need to get a sense of humor for this game.

Cheers

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...75953293-1.jpg

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And here I thought it was just patience and some cash.

Actually...I'm looking forward to the challenge.

Enjoy then and good fortune.

Cheers
..MJ..
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

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Originally Posted by tarplett

if anyones interested i have just built a replica no4 sniper for surplus sniper service rifle competition here in western australia, i used a no4 mk1/2 ftr'd 1954 numrich repro pads and mount and a weaver k2.5 scope, repro covers from a guy in the uk and a repro 1942 milsco knox sling, i have photos but am new to the site and have no idea how to attatch them. i know its not a real no4t but its a faithfull reproduction as per the rules of the ssaa here in australia and all up including the rifle it stands at about $1000au which by my reckoning is about a quarter of the price of a genuine item(if i could find one!)
info on posting pics would be helpful as i'm a computer duffer!!!!:

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I to would be interested in some photos. The Weaver Scope may pass the criteria inspection.

Does anyone make a repro No32 Mk3 scope? I think I will have everything worked out this spring, with the exception of the scope.

My thinking was; don't bother with it 'til you have an original rifle. Then I located a rifle, or more correctly it found me. Don't bother about the scope 'til you have a mount. Then I was told where to obtain a good ropro mount. it would be waaaaayyy toooooo cool to locate a suitable scope. Now that I know what to look for a No 32 Mk3!

I have an original USGI M1D to use this year, so time is on my side (I hope).

Thanks, Andy

On the L42 inspired ( it wasn't really close enough to call a replica ) Enfield I owned I used a Tasco 1.5-5X20 scope with the brass sunshade from a ( No.53 ? ) telescope fixed to the end.

The mount was an Armalon, which held zero OK.

It all looked the part from a reasonable distance, but once up close it wasn't going to fool anyone of course.

Finally got to taking some pics of the rifle I picked up. I know that it was at some point relagated to drill purpose, hence the DP's, but the action is tight, and the barrel looks good as well. The holes from the cheek piece screws were filled with dowels. It definately needs some TLC, but I plan on taking my time with it. Any help identifying the other markings would be appreciated. Also, trying to figure out the maker.

Just an fyi to everyone, I was at Sarco today and they have what look like, and they are advertising as, original front pads in the white. They have some surface rust, but otherwise look good. Not sure but I think they are out of Israel.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2362-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2363-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2364-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2365-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2366-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2367-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2368-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2369-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2371-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CIMG2370-1.jpg

Looks like a really nice well used 4t tower06! As to the maker - M47C on the butt socket = BSA shirley. I would presume the NZ means it was in service with New Zealand at some point.
Good luck on the project - if it was me I'd be leaving the wood etc as it is - an old gun which has seen a lot of service! Isn't there some suggestion that some israeli front pads are a different configuration to the british made ones?

Bruce Gorton in Invercargill had a couple of ex DP, presumably ex NZ Army No4T's. I have seen a couple in service here but now long gone - plus a skeleton action ex No4T too

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Bruce Gorton in Invercargill had a couple of ex DP, presumably ex NZ Army No4T's. I have seen a couple in service here but now long gone - plus a skeleton action ex No4T too

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I figured the NZ 1781 was possibly a unit marking for New Zealand, but been looking throughout the net and could not find any info. The knob on the bolt handle is actually drilled similar to the what I have seen on the jungle carbines. Also the cocking piece is marked N67 MkII. I have not seen this handle type on T's before nor this marking on any cocking pieces of rifles I have looked at.

With all the extra work and expense of building a "T" why would it be downgraded to drill purpose? Was it due to the limited number of No.4 rifles New Zealand had on hand? Seems as if there would be plenty of No.1 rifles that would have filled the need.

The rifle failed SOMETHING, of that you can be sure! That's why it was relegated to DP spec. I bet that in NZ, somewhere in Ordnance, the pads etc etc were replaced onto another rifle. In the UK if 200 rifles were needed for DP, then 200 were taken from awaiting scrap first (if suitable) then unserviceable stockpiles then serviceable stocks

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The rifle failed SOMETHING, of that you can be sure! That's why it was relegated to DP spec. I bet that in NZ, somewhere in Ordnance, the pads etc etc were replaced onto another rifle. In the UK if 200 rifles were needed for DP, then 200 were taken from awaiting scrap first (if suitable) then unserviceable stockpiles then serviceable stocks

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Peter you've seen DP marked rifles back in use? How does that work? They would repair and reissue?

In your expert opinion Peter, is it worth refurb'ing, or should I leave it as is? The expense is not an issue, I don't mind taking my time with it.

You'd best read up a couple of articles that I've written about these DP marked rifles as I don't want to go through it all again. I can just quote from what I know but I saw ax ex T rifle as one of the skeletonised trainers. It looked OK from what I could see but on closer examination I could see the front pad screw still sheared off in the hole and covered in phosphate and paint, it didn't even look like it'd ever been drilled and tapped.

So when it sheared off in use, the rifle went back and when, say, 200 were required for DP or skeletonisation, in it went. The same probably happened with yours. We've had them relegated to DP spec after being in a huge fire. Look perfect but possibly a metallurgical nightmare.................

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Originally Posted by tower06

Peter you've seen DP marked rifles back in use? How does that work? They would repair and reissue?

In your expert opinion Peter, is it worth refurb'ing, or should I leave it as is? The expense is not an issue, I don't mind taking my time with it.

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As Peter mentioned, here's a few links to other threads where he's discussed DP and ZF marked rifles ...

DP Stock Marks Query

DP Rifles

Drill Purpose Rifle L59A1 UK Legal Status

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You'd best read up a couple of articles that I've written about these DP marked rifles as I don't want to go through it all again. I can just quote from what I know but I saw ax ex T rifle as one of the skeletonised trainers. It looked OK from what I could see but on closer examination I could see the front pad screw still sheared off in the hole and covered in phosphate and paint, it didn't even look like it'd ever been drilled and tapped.

So when it sheared off in use, the rifle went back and when, say, 200 were required for DP or skeletonisation, in it went. The same probably happened with yours. We've had them relegated to DP spec after being in a huge fire. Look perfect but possibly a metallurgical nightmare.................

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Originally Posted by Badger

As Peter mentioned, here's a few links to other threads where he's discussed DP and ZF marked rifles ...

DP Stock Marks Query

DP Rifles

Drill Purpose Rifle L59A1 UK Legal Status

Regards,
Badger

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Thanks for the links. I took a look at them. In looking at the rifle, none of the mentioned cuts to demil them are present as in the sample rifles in the article. I assume some were not DP'd that way? Would is be worthwhile to check hardness of the action to see if it suitable for use?