DP rifles

[Peter Laidler]

Here's a bit of a brain and memory teaser for you.

Does anyone out there in forumland have an article that I wrote for the old CSP forum a year or so ago, before they went feet-up. It was all about the selection of certain below standard rifles and machine guns for downgrading to DP/training specification.

Thanks. If you have, would you be so kind as to add it to this thread

Information

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[Badger]

Hi Peter ...

If you can narrow down the timing (ie: month or even year), or perhaps some narrower search words criteria, I may be able to help you ...

Regards,
Doug

[Peter Laidler]

I think I sent it in a PM to someone in NZ who was a fireman in the North Island but forget his name now........... and he wrote it up. Can anyone else help? It did attract a bit of comment. It's just that it was quite detailed and I don't want to write it all again.................................

[Badger]

If it was a PM (Private Message), it would not be a accessible in any public post archives.

If it was a public post and anyone can help Peter narrow down the timeframe, or perhaps any part of the "subject" title, I may be able to help.

So far, I've looked through some archives from Jan 13th, 2008 - April 4th, 2008 and I can't find any kind of a lengthy public post surrounding the topical matter mentioned.

I'll keep looking, but have to go visit grandkids right now, so it will have to be be tomorrow...

Regards,
Doug

[lngstrt]

sorry .... wrong info

How does one delete a post??

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes, sorry Badger. I sent it to him by PM but he published it, with my knowledge, on the old CSP. I'll see what I can find.............

[jmoore]

Do you remember the title or date? I've scads of old Peter Laidler posts that Iprinted from the old forum. Unforunately they're not really organized and probably stack about a foot high!

[Peter Laidler]

Fear not, the missing article has been sent to me. But you should fear if you have any thoughts abour resurrecting a previously DP'd rifle. Apparently several of these, in various forms, from the basic No1 Mk3 to the No4T are turning up and quite rightly, the dealers are hoping to sell them as 'goers' to the unwary and unsuspecting. What you get might be perfect....... but on the other hand, have you ever heard the saying '...a sack of cra-'?

I'm simply telling you how it is, in my very limited experience BUT even my very limited experience is likely to be a little less limted than your average dealer, home gunsmith or just enthusiastic amateur. Anyway, here it is.....

DP rifles in Britain

I have mentioned ‘Britain’ here but while I can’t include Canada, I can certainly include New Zealand and Australia with a degree of certainty plus India, whose Army liaison Officer at work ran his eyes over this paper for me. I have also mentioned DP too and in this respect, it isn’t meant to mean ‘DRILL’ in the parade square context, it is meant to indicate practicing your rifle ‘training drills’. And it’s not only rifles that were downgraded to DP either because in the days of the old ‘number’ radio sets, many of these were classified as DP sets too.

When I read about DP rifles in various places, I get the impression from the armchair experts that they are formulated by someone in the Armourers shop who decides that he’ll make/convert a few rifles in order to …………. NOTHING could be more dangerous nor further from the truth. One other thing too. Do not mix up DP rifles with the ‘higher’ standard (?) ‘sub-standard’ rifles that trickled out of service in the early 50’s. At least there were gauging limits for those!

When need exists for such rifles, the idea is put up to the Brigade Training Major for example and ‘staffed’ up the chain of command where a decision on the matter will be reached after due questioning of all concerned. I’ll take a fictitious unit training for an operational role in bongo-bongo land. The attrition rate of the weapons on the training team, due to the arduous nature of the training is critical is such that they need 20 rifles and 6 GPMG’s that can be used and abused. Authority is given for them to be issued these ‘extra’ DP classified weapons from Ordnance stockpiles. So, in the normal course of events, these are issued from training stocks.

But, let’s say the DP stocks aren’t available, then authority will be issued FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE no less, for such weapons to be made available. Ordnance stores would then select from returned weapons that are deemed to be ‘ZF’ (that’s an Armourers technical explanation that I won’t go into) or BER (Beyond Economic Repair) to select the required amount for conversion to DP specification.

Now, if the required amount cannot be made from the ZF and BER stocks, then the remainder will simply be converted from standard war stocks. You will see from this, that while on the face of it, some 30 years down the line that your bright and shining No1 or No4 rifle LOOKS bright and shining, under the bright and shiny surface might be lurking a metallurgical nightmare ……………… Let me give you an example

During the 60’s and 70’s there was a constant need for No4 DP rifles, not only for cadet Forces but Parachute training too where the actual carrying of a rifle was more important than what the weapon was for. The reason for the attrition in this case was quite understandable. So a small but continuous rolling programme of ‘DP-ing’ was undertaken. Naturally many ZF/BER No4’s plus otherwise serviceable rifles were put into the programme plus a healthy dollop of L1A1 rifles too. Not only were these worn out rifles put into the pot, but we later learned, several thousand extensively fire damaged No4, L1A1 rifles and Bren guns that had been involved in a massive fire. These were aesthetically cleaned down, rebuilt to DP standard and profusely marked JUST so that there could be no doubt about their status. Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

Let me give you another example too. NO dates here of course but ‘recently’ several hundred assorted weapons were recovered from a fire ravaged/damaged ship, sunk in low water (and later towed out to sea and scuttled). These were all quickly earmarked for scrap and eventually side tracked for DP/Training use. Like the other example, these were also cleaned, and refurbished, painted and ‘restored’ to aesthetically ‘serviceable’ condition. Oh, they looked good but within a couple of years, these had started to rust from under the welds, seams and joints.

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!

That’s about it. In my very limited experience as an Armourer and having overseen some of these DP programmes, I can tell you with certainty that they were all profusely marked DP so that their status was unambiguous. Agreed, some might be taken straight from stocks, but the rest ……………

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.


And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler is the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January1963 and 66. He is currently the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!
Resurrect a DP rifle from ANY nation......., no fear!

[Peter Laidler]

This is another fate for rifles sentenced ZF; skeletonization! This is an ex-No4T but we know exactly why this rifle was downgraded and eventually selected for scrap, then either DP or skeletonization. The front pad screw had sheared and was difficult to remove. T rifles were plentiful so a replacement was issued pending Base Workshop repair. In the meantime it was skeletonised and the broken-off/sheared screw remained, covered in 40 years worth of paint.

Some of the L54 DP rifles were also based on worn out No4T rifles so watch out for the tell tale signs if you ever see any for sale. Oh yes, and please don't try to resurrect it if you do find one!

The full story of this rifle was featured in the UK based LERA journal

[tbonesmith]

Does an asterix on the top of the receiver ring bear any relationship to DP? Does anyone know what it means (on a No4T receiver).