Steed And Perrins - Fetcham, Surrey. KT22 9JB
Have HXP 303 at £20.00 per box of 48.
I cannot justify driving a 340 mile round trip for a few boxes, so thought it might be of some use to you 'southerners'
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Steed And Perrins - Fetcham, Surrey. KT22 9JB
Have HXP 303 at £20.00 per box of 48.
I cannot justify driving a 340 mile round trip for a few boxes, so thought it might be of some use to you 'southerners'
I wish I could drive there for some, Pennsylvania is more than a tank of petrol away! That's great stuff, wish we got more here.
We need container load of that stuff in Canada. I agree, great ammunition.
I remember buying HXP 69 from Henry Kranks for £14 a hundred when it was first available a few years ago. I wish it was still available at that price. I still have one box left that I have kept.
Regards
Peter
I just picked up about 80 rounds of HXP, nearly all 69 but a few early 70's. Is it corrosive and is it boxer or berdan primed? Also in the box lot were about 20 GB 50 rounds. I would assume this to be berdan primed and corrosive as it has large primers.
HXP 71 & 73 is boxer primed and non corrosive; albiet you should treat any older ammunition as corrosive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Do you know I could actually walk there in less than 30 minutes, thanks for the heads up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
Curly
Some of that stuff has '50s and earlier British rounds mixed in randomly (some tracer). Presumably it's been repacked at some time.
Don't tell Son or Thunderbox but if you fire form your new cases with a rubber o-ring and don't say anything about headspace in our forum, then Son or Thunderbox can't chastize you about liking tight headspace.:bitch: (just keep it quite and don't spread this around outside the U.S.) :thup:
Graf & Sons
PRVI BRASS 303 BRITISH UNPRIMED 100/BAG
Price: $45.99
Graf Sons - PRVI BRASS 303 BRITISH UNPRIMED 100/BAG
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6206-1.jpg
aimsurplus.com
Prvi Partizan PPU .303 150gn SP 20rd AP303SP150 $13.50
Prvi Partizan PPU .303 150gn SP 20rd
The good old days.
I'm sorry, but can you explain what you mean? Fire-form with an o-ring? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
Rondog - you had to 'bite' didnt you.
It'll be like opening Pandoras box all over again !!!
It'll be quite a while until I can say that... don't tell Mr Horton:madsmile:, but I've got over a thousand HXP cases which I emptied through my rifles, for re-loading with ...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip
And I've still got another K + to go.... But I'm not gonna use any o rings... no point when there's only one round each for the restoration projects I got set aside for winter :yikes:
Son i think that might fuse Ed. Looks like you might need a hand on that FTR job. I would help for a pick or two.
Alan "I" wont say a word about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases ;) And at least Son understands my warped dry sense of humor :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
What someone else had to say after I posted the o-ring method at Gunboards and he put it to a destruction test. :beerchug:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/oring1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/oring2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/oring3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/oring4-1.jpg
Eds opened Pandoras box :thup:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5096-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP2717a-1.jpg
100 grain pistol bullets, a rubber o-ring and perfectly formed cases with no stretching in the base web area of the case PLUS getting 30+ reloadings :wave: (all because I took a smart Canadians advice about rubber o-rings)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP4691-1.jpg
It's even further away from TX. The irony is, I lived not too far from there a couple of years ago. Of course, I would have had no use for it, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc
That said, I was lucky enough to get a box and a half of HXP-69 thrown in with a 1943 Maltby that I bought last week (along with 2 bandos of 1944 Radway Green). :D
Sorry. When it comes to the finer points of rifle shooting, I'm still pretty much a naive knuckledragger. Just wondering what this is all about, and if it's something I need to know and do. I've always been just a "stuff 'em in and shoot 'em" kinda guy, but if this is some trick that'll help me to actually HIT what I'm shooting at, it might be a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
No problem - its just one of Ed Hortons specialities, basically you fire-form your case with a rubber o-ring between the rim and the breech, this holds the case centrally and helps to minimise stretch and improve case life if you are reloading. I'm sure Ed will post the pics and details in due course.Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
Don't start him off again. We've had more than enough of his so-called sense of humour.
Mr. Horton and I have been discussing this via PM's, so I don't think you have to worry. I appreciate any/all help and advice from whoever is willing to send it my way! I do reload, and am just starting with .303's, so this will help me. Not that I plan to try for 30+ loadings per case, but if I can get several that will be fine. I had no idea that there's a possibility of only geting 2-3 loadings before the head breaks off.
I suppose having the headspace checked on my lil' carbine might be a good idear. Might not even be an issue, it has a matching bolt and seems to be in very good shape overall, maybe it hasn't had the snot shot out of it.
The people who complain the least about head space are shooting Greek HXP ammunition designed to British specifications. The problem is Greek HXP loaded ammunition is very hard to find.
The two type cases that give the least amount of problems when reloaded are Greek HXP cases and Serbian Prvi Partizan cases.
With the rubber o-ring the word head space becomes meaningless and even second and third rate commercially made cases will last longer.
Five years ago Beelzebub the New Zealander at Gunboards told me about Prvi cases and I didn't want to listen to him and shoot Commie Pinko ammunition when I could "buy American".
Four years ago a Canadian told us about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases in a different forum and it sounded too much like Bubba or a shade tree mechanics way of doing things, and I didn't try it.
I ordered 500 once fired Greek HXP cases from Brian Dick and I also let Brian know I was testing any cases I could find for wall thickness and rim thickness.
I measured all 500 HXP cases at three different points "inside" the case checking for stretching and thinning in the web area. This was very time consuming but I was very surprised at the answer.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5203-1.jpg
Not one single Greek HXP case had any stretching or thinning in the base web area.
Brian also tossed some in some extra cases of different case manufactures as a freebie for me to look at and inspect (thank you Brian) and the Prvi Parizan cases jumped out at me immediately. The Prvi Partizan cases are .010 thicker in the base web area than ANY other brand of .303 British case on the market. These Prvi cases also have a larger base diameter than ANY case on the market.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...privihxp-1.jpg
I spent time and money providing all the manuals to give you all the best information possible.
Whether You Like It Or Not headspace is determined by the cases you shoot and not the rifle. The British military didn't design our American SAAMI cases or the European CIP designed cases, and that is a written fact.
Jeez, this is like deja vu all over again...
But ED is so right. The truth only hurts those that are untruthfull or ignorant of the the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
Now if we could just find a way of having it presented in an brief manner-such as a link to a sticky or something...
Now there's a good idea! I don't think anyone can speak against the method demonstrated or the reason it came about...Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Perhaps Mr Horton, you might submit a piece for Badger to consider for the "Technical Articles" part of the MKL!
:beerchug:
OK, I am going to bite. WHERE on the case do you put the Oring? chris3
As I understand it, all the way to the head, or rim of the case. The idea is to use the o-ring to fill in any space between the case head and the breech, to force the case back tight against the bolt head.Quote:
Originally Posted by coppertales
The way I interpret it, when the cartridge fires, the sides of the case expand and grip the walls of the chamber and the case doesn't move. But if there's too much headspace between the bolt face and the case head, the case head can/will move backwards towards the bolt face, even though the sides of the case are gripping the chamber walls and don't move.
This can stretch the case wall in the web area just above the case head, causing thinness, cracks, and case head separation and an early death for the case, resulting in fewer reloads for the case. I understand the whole purpose of this is to "fire-form" the case to the rifle, so you can get more reloads out of your cases. For rifles with mis-matched bolts and excessive headspacing, or cases with rims that are thinner than mil-spec.
At least that's how I understood it. I could be way off. Wouldn't be a surprise. :madsmile:
The only place that will "push" the rear of the case against the bolt face and create a zero head space condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by coppertales
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6290-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5098-1.jpg
A new modern commercial rifle has 3 to 6 thousandths head gap clearance or "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. A Enfield rifle at the maximum head space setting of .074 and a cartridge with a rim thickness of .058 can have .017 "air gap" between the rear of the case and the bolt face.
This means the base web area of the case when fired can stretch as much as .017 (seventeen thousandths) this weakens the case and causes case head separations and short case life when reloaded.
Below is an example of case thinning and stretching in the base web area.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stretch1-1.gif
With the rubber o-ring around the rim of the case, the case is forced against the bolt face and the case does not stretched when fired.
The rubber o-ring also compresses and centers the rear of the case in the chamber helping increase accuracy when the case is reloaded.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ame_0001-1.jpg
The rubber o-ring doesn't care what the head space is set at or your Enfield or even if the head space is larger than the maximum setting of .074 within reason. After the case is fire formed you neck size only and the case will head space on the shoulder of the case and not the rim.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eadspace-1.jpg
Your are "fooling" the case into thinking it was fired in a tightly head spaced Enfield or "fooling" the rifle into thinking the rim of the case is much thicker. The end result is no case stretching in the web area and cases you can reload many more times before case failure.
Below is a factory loaded Winchester case fired in an Enfield with the head space set at .067. The case stretched .009 thousandths when fired without an o-ring.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP45211-1.jpg
Even the European CIP who governs firearms and ammunition states that modern commercially made ammunition has a head space problem in the Enfield rifle.
Delta L problem
The delta L problem (ΔL problem) is a condition that occurs regarding certain firearms chambers and their practical incompatibility with ammunition made for the corresponding chambering. The ΔL refers to a Commission Internationale Permanente (C.I.P.) geometric dimensioning and tolerancing definition for firearms cartridge cases which are longer than the chamber they have to fit in.
If the chamber in a C.I.P. conform firearm (a firearm with chamber dimensions specified by the Commission Internationale Permanente) is shorter than a non-C.I.P. conform maximum sized cartridge (a cartridge with external dimensions larger than specified by the Commission Internationale Permanente), use of that ammunition in the firearm may lead to chambering and/or feeding problems in the shoulder area or other headspace issues.
Firearm cartridges with otherwise problematic headspace
There are also some firearm calibers with problematic headspace listed by C.I.P.[2]
The headspace defined by:
Depth of rim recess
* .303 British
* .38 Sp AMU
* 6.35 Browning
* 7.65 Browning
* 9 mm Browning long
Delta L problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The basic problem is modern commercial ammunition is not made to British military specifications and does not like the longer head space settings of the military Enfield rifle which it was NOT designed for.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0737-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5191-1.jpg
Yes, the oring holds the case in the centre of the chamber and back against the bolthead. On firing the case will expand out to the chamber walls equally all around, evening out the stresses around the case head. Without the oring, the case will sit in the bottom of the chamber and expansion will only be into the vacant space above the case (however small)- all the stretching is on one side.
Once the case has been fired in the centred position, it will be centred every time it's chambered after that untill you have to full length resize.
Have to agree with Son about the centering of the case in the chamber has more to do with case life than zero headspace with the first fireing. Excellent post ED. Can some thing like this be put up as a sticky as it is always on the go.
I can see how the "O" ring effectively eliminates the headspace buy thrusting the cartridge firmly against the bolt face but how does that centre it as well?
If it's given there is headspace to start with, and it's also given that the diameter of the tapering chamber is larger than the tapering cartridge diameter, then I guess it means that by thrusting the cartridge against the bolt face and away from the chamber this would maximise the airspace around the cartridge.
If the cartridge is truly centred, (assuming the bolt face is perfectly square to the chamber) there would be a perfectly equal air gap around the cartridge and no contact at all with the chamber wall.
I would imagine that you need to remove the extractor for these first firings as I would think that it would push the cartridge away from itself.
The big question....
Where or how does the cartridge reference itself to the centre of the chamber ???
How is this achieved by the "O"ring??
Danny
You may overcome most of the extractor's influence by using a properly sized o-ring, but if you're really worried, then, yes, removing the extractor would be possibly beneficial- "possibly", because the breeching area is not uniformly surrounded... Plus, it's a boatload more work.
If perfectly done, no, there's no contact between cartridge and chamber, unless the bullet is seated out far enough to engage the rifling. Would it help shrink groups as well as extend brass life? Theoretically. In practice? Nobody's "fessed up" yet! (Or did I miss something?)
Benchresting Enfields is not high on my shooting exercises list- they seem to invite more "field" and "position shooting" usage!
ETA Sorry if I drifted off the intent of your question, Danhar1960. My pea brain got sidetracked on implications of the question of which you may not have intended. Besides Son's drawing below does the job far better- except, well, I'm still not sure that unless the ring is fairly small, there may not be some unintended non-concentric side loading as the ring "oozes" out the breech. Mr Horton's o-rings appear fairly large-ish.
Danny, I just knocked up a rough sketch in paint to show how the o ring will centre the base of the case in the back of the chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danhar1960
The rubber o ring is uniform is section all the way around and flexible. It will be squeezed into the space evenly all the way around by the bolt being closed onto the case. This should centre the rear of the cartridge regardless of if the boltface is square to the chamber or not.
I think the o ring would be firm enough though to negate most of the effect of the extractor bearing on the right side. In fact, if you watch the extractor closely as you cam the bolt shut, you may see the extractor being pushed outward by the case being centred- either that or it's seating onto the machined slot on the barrel- taking the weight off the case.
I remove the extractor because it effects the centering of the case and the o-ring lasts longer and doesn't get small nicks or cuts from the extractor.
The case is centered in the chamber because you are compressing and flattening the o-ring. The same way a hydraulic piston is centered in the cylinder of a actuator under pressure. If you notice the rear of the chamber is beveled and as the o-ring is compressing it moves inward centering the case.
The o-ring has only two directions in can move when compressed and this makes it self centering.
Thanks for taking the time with the pic and the info Son. I can see that it would work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son
Really should think seriously about reloading my HXP as I will soon be under a 1000 rounds left and there isn't anymore around. (That I can find anyway)
Danny