My Saginaw S'G'

I thought you guys might like to see this,

I only have one carbine and its certainly one of my favourite rifles to shoot.
Recently I was able to borrow "War Baby" and a few other carbine related books to find out exactly what I have and I was pleasantly surprised.

This carbine is most likely a vet bringback seeing as its ended up in New Zealand. I dont know any of its history but its condition and the fact it has all correct parts suggests that someone from NZ 5 Div. smuggled it home, its just a theory but those boys bought alot of stuff back.

Some previous owner has stamped their initials into the stock by the S'G' cartouche. Apart from that the wood is beautiful. Even tool marks are still visible on the handguard and under bright light I can see a stamped green number in the stock where the slide runs.

Im not sure on the proper accepted method of writing this stuff down but heres what ive found after a detail strip:

Reciever serial# 1836*** has the tool locating hole.
T2 flat bolt marked S'G'
T1 Firing pin marked S'G'
T1 rear sight marked B-S'G' . Flip sight leaf is also marked the same.
T1 Underwood barrel dated 8-43.
T1 front sight stamped 3 or 8 (hard to make out)
T1 barrel band (missing the swivel unfortunately)
T3 slide marked S'G'
T3 Trigger housing marked S'G'
T2 Trigger housing pin.
T2 Trigger marked S'G'
T1 sear marked SW-S'G'
T2a Hammer marked S'G'
T2 saftey marked IP-A
T1a Mag catch marked IP-W
T2 stock stamped RSG in the slingwell and boxed S'G' and crossed cannons.
T2 Handguard stamped RSG
T2 Buttplate stamped PM-IP
T1 Magazine stamped K-S'G'

I will attempt to upload a couple of photos.

Enjoy!

Trilux, thanks for sharing. That is a real nice carbine. Interesting initials, I'm not sure it would be a previous owner. It may have some other meaning. JMO, others may way in on them. Take care.....Frank

Very nice indeed!

Wish it was Mine!

Ser # 1861xxx
flat bolt S'G'
rear sight PI
plain front sight
barrel Underwood 9-43
barrel band T3 with a D inside a diamond
slide T3 S'G' w/a J and flaming bomb
triggerhousing S'G'
push safety no mark
mag catch M and E.I.
stock IO in well, a Circled P on grip and RIA over EB in a box on L side
2 rivet hand guard R.S.G.
butt plate stamped PM-S'G'
magazine K-S'G'
recoil plate SG
hammer U
bolt S'G'

This reads like a salvage form. LOL

Trilux, that is a very nice S'G'! I DO wish it was mine also.

sweet!

Very nice, Trilux. My original S'G' 1871xxx is the same except for:

Receiver: Ty. B variety 2. “N” mark on left side
9-43 Underwood barrel
Front sight: Ty. 1 “N” marked
Sling swivel: Ty. lla “KV-G” marked
Firing pin: Ty. l “S’G’” marked – tang has been modified to Ty. lll
Extractor: Ty. lll “W/S’G’” marked
Safety: Ty. II “IN” marked
Mag catch: Ty. lla “B-IP” marked
Recoil plate: Ty. lll “W-S’G’” marked
Buttplate: “PM-S’G’” marked


27319 ink stamped in slide channel of stock, very easily seen. The stock and handguard also have tool marks visible. The stock is the same as except no extra markings

Sounds great Maniac! Stick up a pic, sounds like out M1s are twins.

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Originally Posted by Trilux

Sounds great Maniac! Stick up a pic, sounds like out M1s are twins.

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I'd like to, Trilux, if only I can figure how to do it with the neat magnifying glass/expanding type pix. Please advise if possible and I'll try to do so when I can get off this blackberry and on my computer when I get home later tonight.

Maniac,

Here's a link for a tutorial Doug ('Badger') put together.
Use method '2' to upload your photos to Milsurps.com and you get the 'thumbnails' in your post.

How do I upload or post images on MILSURPS.COM? - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trilux

Sounds great Maniac! Stick up a pic, sounds like our M1s are twins.

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Here's a few pix of my S'G', the handguard and stock both show milling marks that can be seen in a couple of them. I've digitally removed the last 2 digits of the serial number from the heel.
I came across this carbine at a show about a year ago. Just went to look for ammo but when I saw this and got a chance to examine it closely I couldn't resist. According to War Baby! it's got all the right parts and I cannot find any evidence that they're not all original to this Grand Rapids Saggy.
PS - nice S'G', grits! Appears to have gone through nothing more than a light rebuild. A keeper!

Charlie, you could not do better.....Frank

Very NICE

Really nice carbine Maniac!

Thanks guys, although the pix don't really do it justice. I plan on making a light box so I can take better pix in the future. It was interesting to hear that Trilux's S'G' has an inkstamp and milling marks similar to mine. Trilux, can you make out the digits on that stamp? It appears that whoever stamped the S'G' and crossed cannons on yours did so with great enthusiasm!

Since were playing the green ink stamp game here is my 1.833 bring back S'G', yes it got the O.D. hammer m2 field mod to the stock.https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif[/IMG]

Very nice, Curt but you're not going to tease us by posting just one pic, are you? What is your S'G' wearing for a barrel?

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/wfo87/SGM1/

Here is a link for a old photo album and yes I put a genuine C-tip sling on it finally, I think everyone here has seen this before. It has a 8-43 Buffalo arms barrel. All major parts S'G' all minors are IP.

Great S'G', Curt, I must have missed it the first time around. Thanks for the pix.
Mine was made toward the end of the fitst IP/S'G' serial # range, the only IP part in mine is the mag catch. All the remaining parts are S'G' except for the 'IN' marked safety. When I bought my S'G' it came with an informal data sheet which detailed the parts according to War Baby!. It there was a circle in red ink drawn around the safety stating that the 'IN' marking was incorrect. I couldn't figure why it would have that safety but the rest of the carbine looked great so I bought it. I subsequently bought an 'IP-A' marked safety from a respected forum member intending on swapping it out for the "incorrect" 'IN' marked when I noticed on page 429 in War Baby! for S'G's wartime subcontractors that a safety with unknown markings was contracted to the IBM Corp's Electro-matic Typewriters, Inc., Div.. Then on page 453 regarding NPM's subcontractors it says that the 'IN' marked safety was furnished by IBM Corp's Electric Writing Machine Division. Based on this info and the parts and condition of my S'G', I'm convinced that the "IN' marked safety is original to it. Anybody want to buy a nice original 'IP-A' marked push safety?

We meet again. Take it slowly Trilux. There's a lot to be learnt from these guys. Mike. N.Z.

Mine also had the M2 type mag catch and a 30 rd SEY mag in it when I bought it. I too bought a IP-B catch from a forum member.

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Originally Posted by Curt

Mine also had the M2 type mag catch and a 30 rd SEY mag in it when I bought it. I too bought a IP-B catch from a forum member.

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Now I'm really confused about the type III mag catch pictured on your S'G', is that the one you swapped out for the type IIa “B-IP” marked one you bought?
In my case if I'd have paid a bit more attention to War Baby! I could have avoided the hassle (i.e. whining, begging, spending $) of obtaining & now selling what I thought was the correct "IP-A" safety. I'm learning that War Baby! doesn't necessarily spell out everything that is right for a particular carbine, one sometimes has to put 2+2 together themselves.

I'll stick a pic of my safety with my others on my earlier post.

correct I swapped the catch out I am not sure the "type" it had the extra thumb on it for the 30 rd mag. I put the type II B-IP in it. I think the stock mod,catch and 30 rd mag were all part of a field mod kit. The rest of the rifle was never messed with and doesn't appear to be used much.

nevermind!

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Originally Posted by Maniac

Great S'G', Curt, I must have missed it the first time around. Thanks for the pix.
Mine was made toward the end of the fitst IP/S'G' serial # range, the only IP part in mine is the mag catch. All the remaining parts are S'G' except for the 'IN' marked safety. When I bought my S'G' it came with an informal data sheet which detailed the parts according to War Baby!. It there was a circle in red ink drawn around the safety stating that the 'IN' marking was incorrect. I couldn't figure why it would have that safety but the rest of the carbine looked great so I bought it. I subsequently bought an 'IP-A' marked safety from a respected forum member intending on swapping it out for the "incorrect" 'IN' marked when I noticed on page 429 in War Baby! for S'G's wartime subcontractors that a safety with unknown markings was contracted to the IBM Corp's Electro-matic Typewriters, Inc., Div.. Then on page 453 regarding NPM's subcontractors it says that the 'IN' marked safety was furnished by IBM Corp's Electric Writing Machine Division. Based on this info and the parts and condition of my S'G', I'm convinced that the "IN' marked safety is original to it. Anybody want to buy a nice original 'IP-A' marked push safety?

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The way I interpret War Baby on this is that the "IN" safety is known to be the one that was supplied by that sub-contractor to NPM, and that the marking on the ones they supplied to Grand Rapids is not certain. By the way, what is the marking just behind the post of your front sight? I can't make out if it's an "N" or almost looks like a "W"? Does your sight have a number stamped on the left side of the base? Very nice S'G' I must say!

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Originally Posted by USGI

The way I interpret War Baby on this is that the "IN" safety is known to be the one that was supplied by that sub-contractor to NPM, and that the marking on the ones they supplied to Grand Rapids is not certain. By the way, what is the marking just behind the post of your front sight? I can't make out if it's an "N" or almost looks like a "W"? Does your sight have a number stamped on the left side of the base? Very nice S'G' I must say!

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There are no other stampings on the front sight other than an "N" behind the post.
I interpreted War Baby the same way you did in that it's obvious that while Ruth had evidence that S'G' received some safeties from IBM Corps. Electro-matic Typewriters, Inc., Div, he didn't know what the markings were, hence his question mark in that regard. However, when I observed in War Baby! that the 'IN' marked safeties that were delivered to NPM from IBM Corps. Electric Writing Machine Division it seemed probable that the 'IN' marked safety in my S'G' was original. All the other marked parts in my S'G' are either IP or S'G'. What do you you other S'G' aficionados think of my theory? I've been procrastinating on sending the Carbine Club the data sheet for my S'G', maybe when I do I'll be able to get confirmation from them one way or the other as to whether other original S'G' carbines have been reported with 'IN' marked safeties. Here's a link I found yesterday about IBM's typewriter divisions circa WWII:
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ex...b_history.html

This is really interesting! I recently purchased what I believe to be an original S'G' that has a s/n in the 1829XXX range. It has many of the same parts markings as yours, but not all of them. My front sight has a number "7" stamped on the LH side of the base, and the "N" is upright as viewed from the back of the sight. Your "N" looks like it might be what's referred to as a "sidewards N" or Z. Most think these sights were supplied by two different manufacturers, but I think they were both made by Niedner Rifle Co. Where is the IN marking located on your safety, and is it Type 2 Var 2 plain? Warbaby! states that the IN safety is marked on the inside somehere as supplied to NPM. Mine has this same type of safety, but I can't find a mark on it anywhere. It has really rough semi-circular machine marks on both ends, and there is possilbly a light mark on one end, but I can't make out what it says. Thanks, Bob

For your consideration Gentlemen, Mike.

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Originally Posted by USGI

This is really interesting! I recently purchased what I believe to be an original S'G' that has a s/n in the 1829XXX range. It has many of the same parts markings as yours, but not all of them. My front sight has a number "7" stamped on the LH side of the base, and the "N" is upright as viewed from the back of the sight. Your "N" looks like it might be what's referred to as a "sidewards N" or Z. Most think these sights were supplied by two different manufacturers, but I think they were both made by Niedner Rifle Co. Where is the IN marking located on your safety, and is it Type 2 Var 2 plain? Warbaby! states that the IN safety is marked on the inside somewhere as supplied to NPM. Mine has this same type of safety, but I can't find a mark on it anywhere. It has really rough semi-circular machine marks on both ends, and there is possibly a light mark on one end, but I can't make out what it says. Thanks, Bob

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It's been a while since I dug my S'G' from the back of the safe but I'll do so when I get home from work tonight. Although I don't have anything about a '7' on the front sight it's possible there is one and I neglected to note it on the informal data sheet I made out when I first bought the carbine. I have the safety listed as a type II (plain face) and the 'IN' marking is on the inside.
Mikey51 - thanks for the photo of the front sight, is it on an S'G'?

S'G' experimented with different height front sight blades. These variations in height were marked with a single number on the outside.

Send in the data sheet to the Carbine Club. I think you will get confirmation on your safety. A friend of mine told me about one he had with only imporperly marked safety. I told him he should leave it alone for now. We later found one in the Carbine of the month with the same safety. Bill

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Originally Posted by Wulf

S'G' experimented with different height front sight blades. These variations in height were marked with a single number on the outside.

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I've heard the same thing and that the numbers ran from 2 to 7 - also that it was done after installation of the sight, and was to aid those those targeting the rifles in filing of the front sight blades. Does anyone know for sure if the 2 represented a sight that needed to be shorter, or was that maybe the 7? My sight, marked with a 7 on the left base is really short at around .2 inches, but I believe someone has done some more filing on it since 1943.

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Maniac

It's been a while since I dug my S'G' from the back of the safe but I'll do so when I get home from work tonight. Although I don't have anything about a '7' on the front sight it's possible there is one and I neglected to note it on the informal data sheet I made out when I first bought the carbine. I have the safety listed as a type II (plain face) and the 'IN' marking is on the inside.
Mikey51 - thanks for the photo of the front sight, is it on an S'G'?

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Do you know where on the inside they usually put the marking? I can't find anything inside on mine. I'm curious too about Mikey51's sight - another "sidewards N" variation? On an S'G' ?

Mikey51's is an IPN I believe

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Originally Posted by Wulf

S'G' experimented with different height front sight blades. These variations in height were marked with a single number on the outside.

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It was Irwin Pedersen not Saginaw Gear that initiated the front sights of varying heights. IP precut front sights down from the standard height to one of seven dimensions and stamped a corresponding number on the left side of the sight. When the carbines were targeted they were done so without a front sight. Instead they used a dummy fixture which gave them the height required for the front sight blade. After targeting the appropriate pre-sized front sight was installed. The IP pre-sized front sights ranged in size from 0 - 8, with 0 being the tallest and 8 being the shortest. The #1 sights were the standard height of .795" from bore centerline. When Saginaw Gear took over the IP facility they abandoned the practice in favor of the standard method of firing the completed carbine, then filing the front sight to the appropriate size. Saginaw Gear did use some of the left over pre-sized front sights but they were targeted in the standard fashion.

Now I know why the post on my S'G' is so short, but wonder how they knew to put on one marked "7" before targeting - maybe they were still using the sight fixture at the time? It's beginning to sound like the "N" and the "sidewards N" are both correct for the S'G' also, since mine has the leftover IP sight and Maniac's is probably the later version. - Bob

Brian is right. The PN sight has a 6 on the left side. An all IP part gun except for an RMC handguard that I can't explain. I have been trying to attach a pic but the system won't work tonight. Will try again tomorrow, Mike.

Really informative post. I will start looking over my all S'G'. Where do you get this information sheet? Enjoy your M1 I enjoyed all the M2's I used to get for $20 back in the day,'67, when I was working for MACV/SOG Kontum unpacking tons of WW2 arms. I received mine in a two gun deal from a guy who needed bail. Note to self; don't poke the old lady in the nose when high.Enjoy your toy.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...21927755-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a7cc0e32-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fa6ed886-1.jpg

Here you go guys. The side of the PN sight on a 1771XXX. Cheers. Mike.

Robert Irwin made stocks were commonly found with the green number stamps inside the stocks.
Inland did the same but their ink color was different and thought to be a dating system (Julian).
Irwins numbers were thought to be part of the production codes/ steps/ inspections... etc.

Charlie-painter777

Here are 2 Type II Hi-woods made by the Irwin Bros....

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00777-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by MJ1

Really informative post. I will start looking over my all S'G'. Where do you get this information sheet?

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MJ1,
If you're asking about the Carbine Club data sheet, it's available as a .pdf on their web site:

The Carbine Club - A CMP Affiliated Organization

There's also a .pdf application to join on the web page along with a description and rules of the club.

Below are the two .pdf's attached:

Membership Application
Attachment 18078

Data Sheet
Attachment 18079

After all the great things I've heard from very respectable members I finally decided to apply for membership.
If I'm accepted, I'm planning to buy the back issues of the newsletter for a late Christmas present to myself.

PS -
You have an outstanding S'G' Trilux! :thup:
Thanks for sharing!

~ Harlan

Cad, I'm a big fan of the Carbine Club. I bought the back issues a year ago and am still finding new info in them. Do yourself a favor; after the initial rush of looking up subjects of special interest to you, make your own index. The only area where the NL disappoints is the inadequate index. It is useful, but very incomplete. My own indexing project took maybe 6-8 hours (not counting getting distracted by articles as i went). My index is also imperfect, but it has saved much frustration in finding an article I had previously read.

Most importantly, I am impressed with the high ethical standards from Isuue #1 through today. They tell you what they know as fact, what is interpretation, and what is an educated guess. The editor has been very kind to me, always responding when I sent any little tidbit of info. My kind of people.

Don't be surprised if it takes several months to receive the back issues. It will be worh the wait.

Man...........
I'm glad you guys brought up the club. I laid the last newsletter in the desk and had forgot to send in my dues for 2011.
It's now sitting in the mail box waiting for my postgal.
Just so much going on lately...

Thx guys,
Charlie

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Originally Posted by painter777

Man...........
I'm glad you guys brought up the club. I laid the last newsletter in the desk and had forgot to send in my dues for 2011.
It's now sitting in the mail box waiting for my postgal.
Just so much going on lately...

Thx guys,
Charlie

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Charlie,
Oh boy, you missed the postmark date of 12-1-2010. :nono:
Now you have to give up 3 Super Big Gulps and send in an extra $5. What a waste of pepsi.
But it is more then worth it. :thup:

Postgal, female mail carriers are few and far between in my area.

Jim

Thanks Harlan, I just printed and am filling out to drop in the mail Monday. Sumpin I shouda done long ago. ;)