My Carbine

Hello to all,

here are some pics and a descripton of my fine and good shooting Carbine.

Barrel: Underwood 1944
Reciever: Standard Prod.
OP-Slide: Inland
Trigger Group: Inland
Rear Sight: Standard Prod.
Bolt: Underwood
Stock: V marked Maker ? SILE or SILP couldn´t read it
Magazine Catch:M marked
Magazine: Rock Ola
Oiler: International Silver

Interesting is that it has an welding point at the left side of the reciever where normaly the Selector knob of an M2 is. So i suppose it was an former M2.
Please tell me your opinions on it.

Regards

Gunner

Herr Gunner,

Bitte geben Sie Uns sehr viel Fotos Ihren Karbiner!

Vielen Danke

Hi Rangemaster,
I have bad luck with the accumolator it is empty. More pics later.

Grüsse

Gunner

The M2 conversion parts require no machine work to the reciever , ie, no difference between an M1 or M2. The selector lever has a fork that slips into two grooves in the rocker cross pin ( which replaces the triggerguard retaining pin ) , and is held forward by the "9" spring which is retained by a dimple on the back of the selector lever and a groove milled in the triggerguard's aft mag. well wall. The area of the weld should have nothing there at all , just a smooth reciever side.
Chris

Thanks Chris,
The welding does not go all the way thru it is only at the outside. The cut off for the oiler is closed to for the old German Gun laws wich allows not that a former War gun is looking like original. They must have an optical difference to the original, here the closed oiler cut and at the Mk5 they removed the Flashhider. But now it is allowed to have the oiler cut in the stock. But was the welding for such an idiotic rule?

Regards

Gunner

this is an OK carbine and I want to know how it shoots?? hey Gunner, how and where did you get this carbine? thanks duggaboy

Hi Gunner, emmigee has it right. Here's a pic to show what he describes. There is no need at all for a weld in that place to make an M2. What is worth thinking about however ... I have seen Carbines from several places (especially Germany), where an old scope/ tap/drill hole, has been welded over in that place. Cheers, Mike. N.Z.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by duggaboy

this is an OK carbine and I want to know how it shoots?? hey Gunner, how and where did you get this carbine? thanks duggaboy

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Hi duggaboy,

thanks, the Carbine shoots really great! I ve shot it several times and if i do it of an sandbag i got 10 Round shotgroups between 2" and 2.5" at 100 yards. I have it from an guy from our Gun Club who has it purchased for the PPC1500 Carbine shootings but he wasn´t a good shooter with the Carbine so i bought it with a huge amount of reloading components for an very good price.

Regards

Gunner

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikey51

Hi Gunner, emmigee has it right. Here's a pic to show what he describes. There is no need at all for a weld in that place to make an M2. What is worth thinking about however ... I have seen Carbines from several places (especially Germany), where an old scope/ tap/drill hole, has been welded over in that place. Cheers, Mike. N.Z.

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Hi Mike,

thanks for your opinion it seems that your right on it. But where should be the drill holes for the rear mount? There is only one point welded, maybe under the rear sight base?

Regards

Gunner

Here are some more pics. Now you can see the closed oiler slot and the broken rear sight and the new one too

Regards

Gunner

Sehr Schoen! 2.5 inch at 100 is awesome!

If you can show clear pics of the left, and right hand sides of the receiver, out of the wood, and a pic of the serial number and the bevel behind it, we can probably help you more. I appreciate that the rear sight may obscure some of the detail. What country has the Carbine "lived in for the last 50 years", that'd be a big clue or me. If it has been in Germany/Austria for a longtime, pics of the M1 Carbine, on receiver ring, above breech would help too !. Cheers. Mike.

Hi Mikey51,

Here are some more pics. The only German markings are the Eagle, the sign of the cologne proofhouse and the year 94. There is a pic with an yellow arrow that shows onto a place where someting been removed from the underside of the barrel.
Please let me know what you´re thinking about it.

Regards

Gunner

you did well Gunnman: I like to hear from over the pond. duggaboy

if the weld spot did indeed cover a tapped hole for a scope mount the rear anchor point for the scope mount was probably where the rear sight is.

Hi TDH,

i changed the rear sight yesterday for the reason that the old one has an crack, and there was nothing to see. Mysterious.

Regards

Gunner

Gunner, keep an open mind. We havn't got all the answers yet. Here's something I found on a very nice Carbine a few years back. Didn't buy it !. For obvious reasons. Not sure exactly where you are, but may I suggest you have a look at M1 Bavarian Carbines. Com. Try and find the "Scope Mount" part. Good Luck, Mike.

Hi Gunner, Mikey gave me a heads up on your posts. I've been researching the carbines used by Austria and West Germany during and after the American Occupation. BavarianM1Carbines.com is my website for my research.

This is an edit of my first post. I see now one of your pics shows the proof marks on the receiver. The 94 means 1994. Can't make out the proof house but I'll take your word for it that it's Cologne.

From the radiator in the background of one of your pics, I can see you are somewhere in the European Union. Then checked your profile and see you are in Bavaria. You are probably aware of the German laws that required the carbine to be altered so it wasn't a "weapon of war" under the laws. The stock slingwell being plugged was one requirement. The sights were another. Usually the front sight has the wings lopped off. I suspect that weld mark had something to do with a hole drilled and tapped for a scope mount that fit into the rear sight dovetail on the rear end. It would have also been made to shoot single shot only, operating the slide manually to chamber the rounds. That was an easy replacement back to semi-auto.

There are several possibilities for your carbine. The more likely one, those proof marks are a good clue. Take a look on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the barrel band and stock. Any markings there?

I suspect your carbine was imported into Germany in 1994, thus the reason for the proof marks. If it was a barrel swap only there would be a different proof mark for it. Franconia has been importing carbines into West Germany and the united Germany for quite some time. I'm sure there are other companies besides Franconia. They have gotten them from throughout Europe, and some from Africa.

I don't think it was a carbine used by the West German or Austrian police during and after the Occupation. But, just in case...

Take a real close look at the bottom of the trigger guard and see if there were any markings ground off, maybe partially still there. Do the same on top of the receiver to the left of the bolt. If there are striations there that run lengthwise, that's a clue. No GI carbine had lengthwise markings there.

If you could post legible closeups of the proof markings showing the proof house and date code, the bottom of the trigger guard, and the top of the receiver to the left of the bolt, it might be of assistance.

Last thing for now. Any evidence of prior markings on the top of the recoil plate?

Jim
BavarianM1Carbines dot com

Hi Jim,

many thanks to you for trying to help me!:thup: And thanks to Mikey for the heads up! Great Website Jim, very informative and impressive.
I made some pics for you and hope that they will help a bit. I found no traces for milled away owner markings but you´re the expert and you will see more in the pics. Here are three things: 1. there is a marking on the upside of the barrel that has an U shape 2" behind the front sight. 2. thre is a marking at the underside on the barrel it looks like " (IRA) and our Eagle proofmark.
3. The stock has an cut out at the place where the welding spot is but it looks professional made and there are the marking SILE in the stock und the barrel. No traces of former owner marks on the recoil plate. The Barrel band has an A in an circle. I added the pic of the proofhouse mark, it is definately Cologne. Maybe it helps a bit.

Thank you in advance:wave:

Regards Gunner

The letter on the barrel that looks like a U is a P if you look at it in the same orientation as the manufacture markings. It's the location the Ordnance P profmark was placed.

I'll take your word on it for Cologne, my eyes are not good enough to see what you can see.

The circled A indicates the barrel band was made by Apex Metal Stamping of Brooklyn, NY as a GI replacement part. The bayonet lug has been cut off.

The SILE markings on the barrel and stock, I'd like to see those and where they are located. Maybe not related but years ago we had a large importer in the USA by that name. They were also in Italy. Their USA office imported many things from Italy, firearms included.

I'm not sure, but I suspect the IRA marking or whatever it is, was the German company that imported the rifle. Franconia placed their mark in the opening on the bottom of the barrel between the band and bayonet lug where BMI also placed their marking along with "5 shots only" in German.

Your carbine doesn't appear to have been used by the German or Austrian police. Italy received 146,863 U.S. Carbines from the Military Assistance Program between 1950 and 1963.

If you ask firearms owners on your German discussion forums about the IRA marking they may know who it was or what it is. I do think it's an importer. Chances are good the importer was located in the area handled by the Bombardment office in Cologne.

Jim

Thank you Jim for the results. The only answer they will give at the moment to the IRA marking is the terrorists organisation of ireland, nuts!
For the SILE i make a pic and post it in a few minutes. It is only at the stock under the barrel not on the barrel.

Regards

Gunner

Hi Jim,

here is the pic. The SILE is located in the forestock area and weak to see.

Regards

Ulrich

Your stock was made by Sile Distributors in Italy. Or someone they contracted to make stocks. They also made M1A1 stocks. That's a nice looking stock. First one I've seen. Just heard about them.

Sile Distributors USA went out of business in the 90's, I believe. I don't know what became of the Italy end. The USA end started up in the late 60's in Brooklyn, NY. They eventually moved to Merdian, Connecticutt. They were a very large importer of all things firearms related.

The stock probably found it's way to your carbine wherever it was. Doesn't mean the carbine came from Italy.

Find the importer, you may find where it came from. But, often they don't want to share that info because of the anti-gun groups.

Jim

Rea the Irish Republican Army, they didn't mark their carbines. If they did, Mikey would know about it. ;]

The IRA had a bunch of their carbines seized over the years. The Constabulary in Northern Ireland put them to use. At least some of them were sold to an importer in the Land of the Kiwi's, where they were being sold a year or so ago.

I'm kind of into cop carbines. Been looking for one from that constabulary in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, it appears they also didn't mark them. I'm still trying to find one used by the Hong Kong Police (HKP or RHKP & a # on the trigger housing and bayonet lug).

Jim

Hi Jim,

many thanks for your help, i really appreciate it! I´m completely new on the Carbines but they seem to be very interesting to collect. If i run across such an Carbine or any information about, then i´ll let you know.

Best Regards

Ulrich