Printable View
Gentlemen, I have a carl gustav 96 mauser and was told that I should not load to the potential of the 6.5x55 round. Till now I've been using factory ammo but would like to reload for this amazing round and get about 2750 fps with a 140 grain boat tail. The factory ammo I'm using flies at just 2400 fps and seems mediocre compared to some of the scandinavian loads across the pond. Will this rifle take a non neutered load safely?
If you stick to Norma, Privi, ammo, etc., you will be just fine. They are mostly WWI era rifles and are not very hard. If you stick to the higher grade factory ammo you will be just fine.
Accross the "POND", they expect the shooter to know the limitations of his firearm. Not like here, in North America, where litigation lurks behind ever fool that "thinks" something should be OK. No offence intended Calif-Steve.
The Norma ammunition, as we see it in North America is "hot". It is made for modern commercial rifles. In Europe, they commercially load for the 96/96-38 style rifles.
The confusion comes from the commercial 96 actions, which are in calibres like 30-06, 9.3x63 and 8x57, to name a few. These cartridges are all usually loaded in the 45,000 to 48,000 psi range, even in North America. These actions seem to be suitable for this range of pressures.
The 6.5x55 cartridge can certainly give much better performance than is usually found in commercial loadings but, pressures with the long for diameter bullets, climb at an exponential rate.
I won't say that it will cause a kaboom but a steady diet of this through a 96 action may stretch it or set the lugs back a bit. After 1938, the Swedes changed the steel they used in their bolt action rifles. Supposedly it's a bit stronger. Something to do with the sulphur content.
I have also seen more than one Swede go kaboom from hand loads in the 50,000 psi + range. One was as ftred and matching, the other three were mixmasters.
I'm not knocking the M96 in any way, I really like them. There just isn't any sense in pushing the pressure limits in such a decent rifle, especially when it's a well documented fact that their limits aren't as high as modern rifles.
It's your call in your rifle, is it worth the chance of damage to you rifle?
My good buddy is a retired gunsmith. He says the M96's are very easy to drill and tap. The steel is nothing like an 03-A3. Right before WWII the Germans figured out how to harden steel for their Mausers, and all WWII German Mausers tend to be very hard. No one else in Europe did this. However, as the M96 shoots a lower pressure 6.5x55mm cartridge and they are just fine. Europeans do not shoot anything like Americans. Ammunition is expensive in Europe and ranges are limited. Americans shoot like crazy and enough shooting will wear out a barrel in no time. This will also stretch a receiver. So there you are, good luck.
Dear lamarpye, I am worried by the desire to reach 2750 fps. Why that? Because it's a nice round number? Forgive me, but you must do what the rifle can, not what you would like. You can get more than 2400 fps with the 140 gn HPBT, certainly, but chasing after maximum velocity is the wrong aim. In fact, if you want maximum accuracy up to 100 yards, then you would be better served by the 123 gn Lapua Siver Jacket.
I recommend that you purchase the Vihtavuori reloading manual and make up loads EXACTLY as they describe. Years of experimentation have confirmed again and again that, following all good practice and working up the loads gradually - I just end up with the "accuracy load" in the Vihtavuori manual. There really is no point in trying to re-invent the ballistic wheel for the M96.
You will note that the loads in the book (for 139/140gn) use fairly slow powders. That is because the case is large (for the caliber) and the barrel is very long (for the caliber). So, ballistically speaking, the load has plenty of time to push the bullet up to speed, rather than giving it an almighty whack. That is good for the action, good for your shoulder, and good for accuracy.
The only variable you will need to establish for your particular rifle is the optimum seating depth, as the M96 chambers were NOT (got that? NOT) made to SAAMI standards. So don't let any wise guy stick a modern gauge in your chamber and tell you the rifle has excessive headspace. Those rifles were made long before SAAMI or even CIP, and the Swedes had their own gauges - see this reference:
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/headspace.html
After the first firing in your rifle, make sure that you only use neck-sizing, on cases that have been formed in your rifle. That way, your rifle will perform quite happily for another shooter's lifetime. The cases will not last so long, but they will last well.
In practice, you will probably find that the magazine well limits the maximum OAL you can use.
Stick to the Vihtavuori book. It works. Excellently.
Patrick
Well said Patrick,
i´m using the VV Guide too and have to say that they are very good. I´m using a 139 grs Lapua Silver Scenar with VV N140. Good accuracy and no hot load.
http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_...deEdition8.pdf
Here is the VV Reloading Guide
Regards
Gunner
Thanks for all of your advice guys! I've used this rifle with Federal Fusion factory ammo which lists the MV at 2530 (haven't chronographed it yet) and have had no problems at all. I'm using it as my deer rifle and it's an absolute tack driver and I do NOT want a kaboom by exceeding factory velocities. I've bought a set of Lee collet dies and will neck size only to see how the sierra 140's will do at long range. I'm so very impressed with this round so far and was hoping to squeeze a bit more out of it, but it's not worth the risk.
I'm well aware that the fastest round is not necessarily the most accurate but it's human nature to sometimes push the envelope a bit.
Sierra 140gn HPBT is good to VERY long ranges.
Lapua Scenar Siver Jacket is even better. How much, probably depends on your rifle.
Patrick
A couple of years ago while load developing for an m/96, I used H4831 to push 144gr FMJBT bullets to the highest average velocity of 2672 fps. This was within published reload data and on the upper end.
So, with that in mind, you could easily push a 140gr bullet to 2700fps and probably 2750fps and still stay within published thresholds for powder weight. The key here is to use the correct bullet/powder combo.
Having said that, though, my most accurate groups were with loads hovering around 2630 to 2640 fps (small groups and very low standard deviation of velocity). This was with load data that was about mid-range of published data. So this tells me it's not the speed but the "sweet spot" to shoot for (no pun intended :) ).
I have found since that of the several other m/96 rifles I have developed for, no two are the same. So, YMMV!!! That's the fun of load development, atleast for me. Good luck with yours!!
metzgeri
Lamar,
I've been shooting swedes with reloads for a long time. I did blow one up, that was where I learned to weigh 4350 instead of throwing it off the measure. What a fiasco. Other than that I've never had problems with the '96, and that includes loads that flatten the primer.
That said, the most accurate load is not always the hottest load, and that's what the 6.5 is all about.
I have heard that the steel in the Carl Gustaf receivers had a bit of nickel in it (swedish steel) and was a little stronger than what went into the german-made rifles. I'll believe it when I see the engineering lab results.
In any case, I've had good luck with most 140 grain bullets and 44 gr of 4350. That's not a load that will hurt your rifle. I've gone to 45 gr. in my own rifles with no problem and could go higher I suppose, but why?
good luck!
jn
The Swedes provided the steel to the Germans for the first German made M96's. They are supposed to be high grade steel. The very early pre-WWI Mausers were made of very plain steel, a step above iron, but steel. The M98's gain their strength through the design and the steel is a moot point for a M98. The M93's and the M96's would benefit from high grade steel. However, most of the M96's are pre-WWI and are the best of their era. Do be aware of that.
"My good buddy is a retired gunsmith. He says the M96's are very easy to drill and tap. The steel is nothing like an 03-A3."
So did you ever hear of an M96 receiver shattering? Too hard = brittle. As Springfield found out - the hard way. A receiver needs to be tough, not super-hard. This is a topic that has been kicked to death elsewhere, particularly on the Enfield forum. The modulus of elasticity is pretty much the same for all steels used in gunmaking. Surface hardness is important for wear (i.e. bolt lugs), not for bursting strength.
Patrick
Swedes M96's do not burst. They will stretch over time. But are well worth the money. Very nicely made of early steel.
Some mis-information hereabouts...
Swedes will, too, burst.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Mauservi-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5X5501vi-1.jpg
Rifles are very particular and individual. What shoots well in one rifle may shoot terrible in another. So when fellows go from one internet forum to another asking for "good loads" it proves one thing: They don't own a loading manual or don't know how to read or won't do the homework.
I have the Hodgdon 2009 Handloading Annual in front of me. I like all the load data because it all has pressure readings and they are all below 46,000 cup and safe for the Swedish Mauser.
The one load mentioned by Jon, 44grs H4350 with a 140 gr bullet. That is one grain under the 45 grs shown in this book. Its a good load. Safe load.
All the loads for 140 gr are in the range of 2490 fps on the low side to 2700 fps on the high side. That high load is with IMR4831. An excellent powder choice for 6.5x55.
In just this Hodgdon book ($9) are loads from 85 gr Sierra HP zipping along at 3,300 fps up through the various weights, 100 gr, 107 gr Match King, 120 gr, 129 gr, 140 gr, 142 gr Sierra Match King, and the Hornady 160 gr round nose. I have one addition bullet weight: 77 gr Norma FMJ Spire point. I don't think they market it anymore and certainly don't market it in the U.S. anymore. You can touch 3,500 fps with that dude. It puts a lot more wear and tear on the barrel, too. But it's fun:).
In the 60s and 70s the Sierra 85 gr HP was made for about 2,700 fps. At 3,000+ it would sometimes/usually disintegrate about 50-75 yards out. You'd see a strange "cloud" and no bullet hit. That was the centrifugal force catching up and turning that solid object into near vapor. Sierra later thickened the jacket material.
"Commercial" m/96 actions are Husqvarna Model 46 (I think). They're identical to military actions. Not one whit of difference.
All Mausers are made from low carbon steel that is case hardened. Some of that case hardening is removed in the subsequent polishing of the receiver. The 03A3 and late 1903 Springfields used nickel steel. A whole different ballgame.
Hatcher's Notebook has some analysis of military rifle receivers including the Japanese Arisaka, Krag, Springfield, M1917, Garand and Gewehr 98 Mauser. It's worth seeking out (online PDF free!) and learning from an expert.
I preach prudence in handloading the m/1896 Mauser because most are near 100 years old. I'd like to think they'll make it to 200 yrs old if we don't destroy them trying to make them something they are not.
I have some chronograph readings from some older loadings that we clocked when I lived in Indiana. Fired from a 1902 Carl Gustaf m/96 with 29" barrel.
100 gr Hornady 49 grs H450 (now obsolete) 3,150 fps. Zippy. No pressure signs.
120 gr soft point unknown maker, 49 grs du Pont IMR3031 average 2,700 fps. This was an accurate load. For "target" ammo its hard to beat IMR3031 but the loads need to be on the low end for best accuracy, "match grade".
160 gr Hornady RN 42 grs H450 (somebody gave me a pound) 2397 fps. You can do quite a bit better than this by way of the Hodgdon Handloading Manual. About 2,520 fps is the high end velocity. Don't shy away from the 160 gr Round Nose. It's the bullet that gave the 6.5x55 its reputation for downrange penetration. It's also one of the highest BC of all small arms bullets up to .458 Magnum. I think its the 3rd highest after the .30 cal 200 gr Sierra Match King and one of the big long .45 rifle bullets.
m/41 Swedish military tracer: 2,659 fps average.
130 gr cast Lyman Loverin .266" 12 grs Unique: 1,724 fps.
140 gr Lyman Loverin .266" 10.5 grs Unique: 1,500 fps and very accurate. MOA. This is my standard load now with this bullet. Do it right and you can put 5 rds into one hole at 50 yds.
I offer all these because they're on the page in front of me and I always find exact figures to be more interesting than hearsay.
Dutch
I recall 4-5 years ago one of the ammunition manufacturers had a Swede M96 blow up in the test laboratory. I think(?) it was due to the bullet moving forward and stopping its progress in the throat area. The receiver could not hold it and blew. Not common, to say the least. A man whom I respect once told me Swedes are very easy to drill and tap. He always said they were soft steel, but I would expect stretching and not blow-ups. Very interesting photos. Thank you.
Dutch,
whose blood is it in the first picture?
jn
Using Federal Fusion ammo cronographed at 2427 fps I was able to hit a pop can at 438yds. I'm falling in love with the 6.5 swede!
I would assume the shooter's blood. I tried to get more info on that one but as with most similar situations the absolute facts were too distant.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_norstog
Dutch
OK, man - I thought it might be yours! It looks a lot like my blowup - I was picking shrap out of my face and one eye for about a month. My ears are still ringing, 15 years later.
jn
Perhaps 4-5 years back Handloader Magazine had a 2-part article on the Swede blow-up. If I recall correctly it occurred at a ammunition manufacturer's test range. They were very concerned about the blow-up and did their best to figure it out. I think they felt the bullet moved forward upon firing and stopped its progress. The load built up behind the cartridge and the receiver let go. Handloader Magazine had neat articles 5 years ago, nothing like that today, however. You have to realize these are pre-WWI '96 Mausers. Nothing like a 1970 FN '98 Mauser.
I Came across this information from Mr. Chub Eastman:
If there is a drawback to the 6.5x55, it's the fact that the first military rifles—the Swedish 93 Mauser in Sweden and the Norwegian Krag—were not necessarily strong actions. Consequently, chamber pressures established for the civilian market were set at a very modest level. This had nothing to do with the case design, which is as strong as most modern cartridges, but the strength of the original actions. The military rifles that flooded the U.S. market from Sweden after WWII were a newer Model 96 Mauser, which was considerably stronger than what the 6.5x55 was originally designed for.
On a recent moose-hunting trip to Sweden I was fortunate enough to get a tour of the Norma facility. More than 80 percent of the actions used in the company's ballistics lab were the same Model 96 Mausers that were imported into the U.S. I guess this speaks to the strength of the Model 96.
In a good, strong action such as the 96 Swede or 98 Mauser, higher chamber pressures can be handled without any problems.
My Note: I guess its safe to load it up a "Little Warmer" then the ammo that you can buy in the USA.
Ol' Mr. Chub needs to get his facts straight.
The Swedes never used the '93 model action. From day one, they used the '96 action, designed specifically for them by Wilhelm and Paul. The same action they started with then, they were using at wars end after WWII.
So, this pretty much null and voids "Chubby's" argument. :cool:
metzgeri
My close friend is a retired gunsmith. He drilled and tapped many a '96 Swede in his day. Always claimed the Swedes were butter soft. Tough exteriors but butter soft interiors. However, as long as you stayed with the 6.5x55 cartridge you were very safe. He barreled up a few .308 Swedes and didn't like the work. He always claimed the 03-A3 was the worst. Tough exterior and tough interiors.
It's generally true that we don't consider the Swedish m/1896 as a 1893 Mauser action. But......
The m/1896 is a simplified 1893. There are 3 primary differences between the 1893 and 1896 none of which deal with strength. The differences relate to the method of manufacture more than anything.
1- the square bolt face was found unnecessary and dropped from the design.
2- the guide rail in the left side wall of the 1893 action and the mating groove in the 1893 bolt were eliminated with the 1896 model. (still present in the 1895 Chilean, which is a different action than the 1893).
3- the 1896 model uses a guide rib on top of the bolt body and a corresponding groove underneath the rear receiver bridge to keep the bolt aligned.
As a result, the 1893 model Mauser offers a more stable bolt function _in_rapid_fire_ over the more wobbley 1896 Swedish action.
The real difference isn't even noticed until you fire the rifle in rapid succession using forceful bolt manipulation. This is where the straight bolt handle shines. It's faster than any bent bolt could be. But the guide rail of the 1893 is just superior to the guide rib of the 1896 in keeping the bolt aligned in rapid forceful function. You wouldn't know this unless you spent time with the 1893/1895 and 1896. The 1893 & 1895 Mauser actions were more complex to manufacture as a result of that guide rib in the left receiver bolt race.
My modest Mauser collection has:
1871
1871/84
1891 Argentine rifle
1893 South African-Chilean
1895 Chilean
1896 Swedish
1898 German Gewehr 98, Brazilian 08, Argentine 09, German K98k, Czech Persian 98/29, Czech Turkish 98/22.
But true that there was never a "1893 Swedish" rifle or action. No difference in the early ones from the late ones. They are absolutely the same in all ways.
Swedish actions are just like other Mauser actions metallurgically. There may be very minor differences in the chemical analysis but they're all low carbon steel that was case hardened. Much/some of that case hardening was subsequently removed during the finishing process, i.e. abrasive polishing. Drilling & tapping a Swede m/96 action isn't a big deal at all. I've done a couple and just did a 1940 Mauser Oberndorf K98k that was no problem. My 1916 Mauser Oberndorf Gewehr 98 has a much harder skin.
Dutch
The first Swede Mauser was the M94 carbine, for what its worth.
Based on my experience drilling and tapping Swedes, the metallurgy of the CG 96s is different from the M38s made by Husqvarna.