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So my new to me 1953 Tula, unfired since being imported, has a bad Crown :cry:
I have not shot it yet, but with the way the Crown looks, accuracy is going to suck.
It looks worse in person.
Is there a hand Tool for Crowning, I do not own a Lathe.
It has a Chrome lined bore if that matters
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture245-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture239-1.jpg
Shoot it first. If it groups 3-4 MOA at 100m (or further). w/ its favorite ammo (try several kinds!), then don't worry! That's perfectly acceptable.
If you do recrown, it might do to find a cone or ball shaped die grinding stone and SLOWLY turn it in the muzzle whilst using a cutting oil. (Maybe 100-200 RPM max in a hand held device, or if the damage is slight, use your fingers.) IF you are careful this will work fine, and won't chip the chrome. If you are ham fisted, then maybe not advisable!
If the chrome is really thin it won't chip too bad w/ a regular hand crowning tool, but it may dull the cutter a bit and then raise a burr.
Can't ever be easy....
Brownells sells a hand crowning tool. though iv never used it..for the guy with no lathe,,id bet its better then nothing..
a hunting buddy dropped his rifle during elk season one year, and dinged the muzzle pretty bad, all i had was hand case trimmer, the one that cleans the case, and primer pocket, RCBS.
i cleaned up the muzzle with that very slowly, worked like a charm..guy still hunts with the rifle as it was repaired.
Did a home Recrown tonight.
It was just to nasty to leave alone.
Used a Bastard file and draw filed it down to good Lands
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture233-1.jpg
Then hit it with Wet/Dry Emery Cloth and Honing oil.
Finished it up with a Tool made for me by a Guy on SurplusRifleForum.Com and some Lapping compound.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture235-1.jpg
Here it is finished, before I cold blued it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture240-1.jpg
And here is how it shoots :)
This is with Yugo 124gr. FMJ @ 50 yds.
I checked the Crown after shooting a few shots and the powder burn at the end of the Muzzle was nice and even.
The covered holes were with Wolf Ammo, I only had a couple of targets with me,
so I had reuse them :o
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture251-1.jpg
Attention to detail is more important than fancy tools! :thup:
awesome. ill add to this, to protect that new muzzle...take a case trimmer tool, primer pocket tool, and dress the inside edge,,first time you bump it,,,the ahhhh shoot..{cleaned up} will happen.
The crown angle (degrees) and bullet type greatly effect the accuracy of your rifle. Brownell's sells crowning kits with different size/diameter brass lapping bits that you can chuck in your drill and it comes with different grit lapping compounds.
A "case trimmer tool", or a "primer pocket tool" are NOT made for re-crowning the muzzle of any firearm and should NOT be used.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6923-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boattail-1.jpg
Edward?
did you actually read the posts???or are you just upset or trying to flame?
your right...a case trimmer isnt a crowning tool,
is a power drill and a draw file better for crowning???lol...looks like his results worked out.
not the prettiest muzzle in the world....but looks like it worked..
seems like the OP doesnt want to spend any money,, and a case trimmer would give the same set back effect as what you have pictured.
Bad advice doesn't belong in these forums, what gun smithing school teaches the case trimmer method for crowning barrels?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
What ever happened to the "I'm a cheap bastard" and the brass screw and valve grinding compound.
"upset or trying to flame"........No just wondering where people get their ideas for butchering firearms after working over 25 years as an Inspector in Quality Control at a military overhaul depot.
i went out in my shop, grabbed a crusty 17 barrel out of the pile of crusty rustys i have pulled.
dropped it on the concrete driveway a few times for good measure, and dressed the crown with a RCBS case trimmer primer pocket tool.
though this is not the correct way to dress a crown, it will work in a pinch, lack of funds, or on just a cheap rifle is in order.
i didnt go very deap, and if i were actually going to use this barrel, i would have gone a little more, and likely dressed the crown itself with sandpaper ect..but you see what i was getting at.
I have the Brownell's "Facing Cutter" set. It works like a champ. I bought the set for what I thought was going to be a "One Off" job and cried when I wrote the check. But, since then I have used the set many times and it has easily paid for itself. Initial cost seems high but, after that you just need to buy pilots to do other calibers and it's not so bad. Here is the link.
Al
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...NE_CALIBER_SET
the reamer used on my lathe, has the same conture as the RCBS case trimmer.
what differance does it make if it says...RCBS, or Spanner tool company. the end result is the same.
nobody is butchering anything...do i think the way he did the job is a little rough??yup, would i have done the same? nope..but..not everyone has deap pockets, and i understand not wanting to spend big bucks on a 200.00 rifle.
though i have the right tools for the job, i can also get the job done with basic ones as well.
The difference is your hand is not a lathe, your hand does not spin as fast as a lathe and your hand is not as rock steady as a lathe. Also a trained Gunsmiths who attended Gunsmithing school would NEVER use a RCBS deburring tool to recrown the muzzle of ANY firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
The difference is quality of workmanship..........
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Chuck always gives great advise :thup:
Chuck realizes that not all have the money to do the perfect profesional job all the time and that people like to learn to DIY.
I love do it DIY jobs, one reason is I don't have deep pockets and I like do what I can myself.
No my Crowning job doesn't look the best, but for the tools I used I think it is pretty darn good and as you can see the end results "Target" shows it shoots straight.
No I wouldn't do this to my Custom Colt 1911, but this is an SKS battle rifle and it didn't get butchered.
Edward Horton:
This is not a Flame, but I personally get very put off by people that think their way is the only way and that if it is not done that way it shouldn't be done.
Your right a Gunsmithing school probably wouldn't teach useing a case trimmer for Crowning, but this is not a Smithing school, it is a Forum where members help each other.
I have received alot of good help and advise and hope it continues.
You are right, I am a (Cheap *******) :p
Interesting how life imitates art - or should that be the other way around? The rebated boattail and the thinking behind it match the the "Gunn-Davidson" bullet presented years ago on the Long Range Muzzleloaders Forum. With cast lead bullets the "corner" of the base is weak point for consistency of form and sharpness, and the rebated provides a cleaner gas-dynamic break when the bullet exits the muzzle. It is interesting to note that Edward's source (Ed, please tell us where it comes from) also says that flat-base bullets can perform better than boattails for accuracy. The purpose of a boattail is to reduce drag and thus flatten the trajectory. Somehow the illusion has been spread that this automatically improves accuracy. It ain't necessarily so. Thank you Edward!
Patrick
common Ed...really??the OP was about repairing a crown WITHOUT A LATHE...do i have to chuck up a crap barrel in my lathe??? really???
keep with the spirit of the post...dont go over board if your not capable of keeping it simple, and having an open mind.
if someone attends a {gunsmith school} that does not make them a gunsmith...that paper on the wall doesnt matter squat,.if you dont have a basic understanding of KISS.
and by the way,,,the muzzle you have chucked up in your lathem isnt finished...it still need counter sinked....what tool would you use to do that????ONE THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE THE RCBS REAMER... how many of these guys do you think have a lathe???maybe 5%.... the OP was how to fix a muzzle WITHOUT A LATE OR FANCY TOOLS...
I believe the OP's group fired afer the recrown job indicates that no degradation of accuracy occurred, and if his sights are reasonably "centered up", then what harm was done? A collector grade weapon it wasn't.
Did he hurt the resale value? Not as a shooter. Probably not much as a collector's piece.
I think he showed initiative and some common sense, myself.
Y'all play nice, and try not to lose perspective!
Attachment 15313Attachment 15314Attachment 15315Attachment 15316Attachment 15317
did a quick target crown..counter sunk, keep in mind it took my longer to download the pics, then to cut that crown
Attachment 15318Attachment 15319Attachment 15320Attachment 15321
just for giggles, i used a RCBS case reamer to countersink...
if the OP lived in my town, id have him stop by and recut that crown the way it was supposed to look, and it might have cost him a lunch.
the crown on the left is mine, the one on the right is a standard Military 1903.Attachment 15323
[QUOTE=Edward Horton;134676]The difference is your hand is not a lathe, your hand does not spin as fast as a lathe and your hand is not as rock steady as a lathe. Also a trained Gunsmiths who attended Gunsmithing school would NEVER use a RCBS deburring tool to recrown the muzzle of ANY firearm.
The difference is quality of workmanship..........
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Actually Ed’s crown is finish, just needs to have the terminus of the lands hand lapped with a brass ball.
Fine looking crown Ed, I use one very similar but with a 11 degree taper to the bore after the guard ring. Looks like you also know to cut from the bore ( center ) to the outside.
Well I used to live in Denver, right across from the Mile High Stadium, that was in 1983Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
Later on I will probably get the crown down right, but for now I'm pleased with the results
[QUOTE=JBS;134966]I don't think that is Ed's work, that Pic is off of ar15barrels.com, they are located in Calif.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
and Ed is in PA.
Mmmm, High speed steel lathe tool bits. I remember using those way back in the pre-cable TV days. The're still good for the occaisional odd job, I reckon. Way more tool protrusion than I would like on the photo above, but if it works- whatever.
I don't even hardly use plain carbide any more, even on aluminum.
Just as an aside, w/ proper care, a flat muzzle w/ just the tiniest edge break is perfectly good for target work. Winchester used to use this method on their finest target rifles. I've had some that had such a sharp edge at the rifling that I don't think they broke the edges at all! Had a Mdl 52b that was like that and an early M70 HB .30 Gov't 06 . Both shot beautififully.
likely a staged photo..tool doesnt match the work, no matter who did the work...the ones i posted were taken, and done by me, and done in a haste, no debur or clean up was done.
i counter sink all crowns, 90% of muzzle damage is at that area,, including the one pictured in the OP.
counter sink, debur, then lap if needed.
i for one, would love to see some of Ed,s work.. with all the smack talking...its a put up or shut up time.. show us hows its done..
As a staged photo, it makes more sense.
No steel swarf to be seen, just some nasty grit or oilite debris on the chuck. (Doesn't look like he cared much for the barrel either- Dirty serrated hard jaws directly clamping the barrel- that'll leave marks!)
I wonder if it's even an adjust-tru chuck (for minimizing run-out).
As far as the squareness of the muzzle affecting accuracy, it doesn't produce degradation in group sizes until about 7 degrees (or was it 14?) off square. It WILL change POI in a predictable manner, however. Fellow did some fairly extensive testing some time back and published the results in Precision Shooting magazine. 5-10 years ago?
BTW, the manuals often don't specify HOW you do the repair, just that results are to be w/in tolerance, even in aerospace applications. All the inspector know is that the end product passes or fails. How it got to that point, well...If it passes the function check and pleases the operator, and is in compliance for safety, etc.- it's dandy.
Have you ever tried to place an SKS barrel in a lathe? Let me know all the gory details!
Have you ever tried to place an SKS barrel in a lathe? Let me know all the gory details!
well, no i havent , iv had. about 100 or so other forms of lead throwers in my lathe, and if needed, i have a buddy with a modified Lathe that has a headstock hole large enough to get a Browning BLR all the way in. is bet id have to remove the front sight assembly..and make up a few swear words...
the last AK or SKS variants that i worked on were some of the 12 gauge shotguns, on the AK type action, all were too short for US laws, i added a nice weld on brake to make them over 18" long. never had to run one through the lathe, as they had to be weld on extentions.
i used to do a lot of muzzle brakes, and did a lot of weird stuff, then sold all my stuff to a buddy..{he has the modified lathe} he took off an ran with it, thats all he does, is make and install brakes..
on the counter sink of the muzzle, the only reason i do it, is to prevent damage to the rifling at the end of the muzzle, nothing really more then that, id like to think everyone will use that rifle in the field at some point or another, and that muzzle no matter how careful you are, can get dinked...and that ahhhh Shoot comes to mind.
if you go to your favorite gunstore, look at the new rifles, all those muzzles made now have a counter sink muzzle, no matter what the shape of the end..
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
(1);)That was a rather lame attempt at humor... But....I'm guessing it'll need a lathe w/ a 3 1/2 - 4" through hole on the headstock if you don"t want to remove all the attached hardware- I think my biggest personal lathe (a Jones and Lamson turret lathe) has a 2 3/4" hole. Removing all that hardware ought to be fun and labor intensive (expensive). I've done a few AK's- in retrospect, it's probably best just to replace than repair or mod the existing unit!
(2)I shortened a Saiga 12 not long ago- and did a nice job w/ a proper crown and didn't mess up the chrome bore- all w/ hand tools. Good weapons if somewhat odd.
(3)2 friends of mine both do muzzle brakes- both charge MORE to remove them than install- mostly because folk get REALLY tired of having their ears bleed when hunting!:eek:
(4)I've crowned stuff every way from caveman to uber-precise (run-outs measured w/ a 0.0001" dial indicator) and all sorts of different configurations. Your style is one of the easier and more practical, but I'm no purist as long as it doesn't degrade accuracy or, many times, deviate from the original style.
(5)I let myself into my favorite gunstore this morning after work- the owner doesn't mind- but there's VERY few if any new weapons- which is why it's my favorite! We do build a few precision rigs along, but it's mostly M40 stuff (expensive hobby!). Not a huge M700 fan, myself (rather prefer the Model 70), but they will shoot, and it's what's in the field...
i dont do any customs anymore for customers, maybe now and then ill play with a SA 700 for my own use, i am a 700 Remington addict, pre 1999 anyway, and own more 700,s then 1903,s .
most of my work is pointed at military restorations, as shown in the round crown, i wanted to leave machine marks just as they did on the 1903,s however, i found it hard to replicate 65 years of use and handling, belive me, iv tride, im happy with how they look and so are the customers i deal with.
i like the M70 Winchesters, but lean towards the prewar variants when i get a chance at one that needs TLC.. always thought they were a classy copy of the 1903.
im not a Browning fan,,at least the new style rifles, wont even work on a BLR anymore unless i get 100.00 up front for the days loss of work, assembling the darn thing..
"its a put up or shut up time"Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
It would NOT be done by a unsteady hand that couldn't rotate 360 degrees and leaves chatter marks with a RCBS deburring tool.............
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
This is NOT the way to recrown ANY barrel........
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This is as crude as anyone should ever get with simple hand tools.............
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6923-1.jpg
The people in these forums deserve to get the best possible answers from knowledgeable people and not be shown something as crude as a cartridge case deburring tool used to recrown a barrel.
ok , lol, so, i see what this is become..no matter what,. your right im wrong.. if that makes you warm and fuzzy...then so be it...
like i said....lets see your work...... its easy to pick somebody else work apart... if you ca talk the talk,,,,,then walk the walk..
if you dont have the skills, tools or actual hands on experinace, then you advise unwarranted...anyone can just pirate pics off the net, from someone else work and experiances, and cut and paste pictures from books ect...
the picture you pirated from my post...before i did a couple passes with the deburing tool, {just to show what was done} i dropped the muzzle from about 4 feet into my concrete drive way..about 6 times, so that it would deform the muzzle..this is not something i would personally use as a real fix...however, if a muzzle is damaged in the field, or if you dont have access to the correct tools....IT WILL WORK IN A PINCH...
see, i figured this out... your the type of guy thats picked people work apart all your life.. and feel good about it....thats sad, i for one have open mind for the most part, and learn to keep things simple. and provide good safe advise, and look at other ways of doing something rather then dump a bunch of money into a low dollar project.
i took the time to show that i can , cut a muzzle crown, it actually took more time to download the pics then the time spent on my lathe... if your going to talk smack, and try and make me look bad,...step up...show us how its really done.. alot of people are watching and reading... actually had a couple calls from fellow members about this little rant...my responce?
have no idea, what started this guy off, lets just watch and see if he,s got any skill or full of hot air... so....show us...
Whilst performing the crowning operation is GENERALLY best done on the lathe (where a ham fisted non-caring operator can really ruin things quickly),I fail to see what's wrong w/ roughing out the crown w the deburring tool and then finishing w/ the lapping balls or similar, in certain situations, such as this SKS. It just depends on the person doing the work. A careful and observant craftsman can easily make a good and servicable crown w/o a lathe. In actual fact, I've had to retreat from the piloted Brownell's tool to a less "precise" cutter on more than one occasion to achieve proper results. Again if the edges are cleanly broken and the chamfer is visibly centered to the bore, the end result will be the same, unless we're trying to go sub-1/2 MOA.
The recess is for protection from dings, and the bore should end in an even manner, that's it. All the rest is more or less "eyewash".
As far as the "horror" of hand tools goes, I've bored out and recut the rifling in my family heirloom squirrel rifle completely by hand, as the initial results on the lathe were wretched. 42" of hand bored and hand cut rifling that is accurate enough to take squirrels (1 to 1 1/2lb greys, big fox squirrels are rare around here) at 50yds w/ teeny iron sights- if the nut behind the trigger does his part!
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I'm done, and I think Hylander is done except for some cosmetic enhancements, so have at it!
ETA: OK, I'm not quite done. I think Hylander should have shot the rifle before doing anything else, as noted in my first post. At least establish a baseline. I've a No.4 Mk.1 that has a factory crown which was so quickly done in '43 that it looks threaded (and DEEP too!) and it manages 3 MOA, sometimes 2- 2 1/2MOA. My first L42a1 has pits in the crown which have worried me since 1994 or 5, but it still shoots sub-MOA, sometime really sub, off the bench w/ 155 sierras. Would a pretty crown help either of those two? Not bl**&y much, I reckon!
Nice Smoke Pole :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
And done by Hand, Awsome :thup:
I didn't shoot the SKS first, 1 because it was so ugly and 2 I was bored sitting around.
I do plan on rounding the outside edge so it looks better, but I probably won't recess the Crown unless I ding it.
I have in the past Counter bored a 39 Tula Mosin 91/30 and a K-98 Mauser about .5" deep to get to good Lands. Those where done on my table top drill press with a Carbide bit and then an End Mill bit and finished with Lapping compound.
The Mosin shot about 1.5 MOA before, after it shot Sub MOA.
The Mauser already shot close to MOA, but after it did shoot MOA.
I was very happy with the results.
Here is the Mosin:
Not to worry, the Bipod is not attached.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...laSniper-1.jpg
Ach, so! So you're not new to the process...
Mr. jmoore "and" chuckindenverQuote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Mr. jmoore, I just reread your posting and the words "A careful and observant craftsman" and I apologize to chuckindenver for my heavy handed comments. So "YES" there is a difference between a average joe with hand tools and a experienced "craftsman", my problem is spending 25 years in Quality Control as a Inspector watching the "average joe" screw things up and this influences my comments.
To clarify there are some tasks the average joe should NOT do, and this is one of them.
One of my most enjoyable "firearm" days was at Williamsburg Virginia watching the "village blacksmith" (a skilled craftsman) make a flint lock rifle, watching the barrel being made was a pure joy to see. This flintlock barrel was crowned by filling it flat and crowning it with a ball bit using a hand drill while rotating the hand drill in a figure eight motion.
The problem in many forums is there are too many Primitive Pete's telling the forum members "how to fix" firearms and as a retired Inspector this drives me up the wall.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0/08/pp3-1.jpg