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There was a thread some time ago about the legal staus of sectioned / skeletonised rifles.
Here is one being sold as a 'de-act' so MAYBE that answers the questions as far as the UK is concerned.
But -
If it doesnt come with a de-act certificate is it truly (legally) a de-act ?
Rare Skeleton (Sectionalised) Lee Enfield No4 MK1 Rifle - Allied Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns
Ah, yes.............. But 'deactivated' isn't the same as 'not deemed to be a firearm under the act' which this very probably is - or an 'inert gun' which is also something akin to the last example of 'not capable of discharging a shot bullet etc etc and on and on into la-la-land.......'
The Enfield factory made several 'inert guns' in the form of SA80's which wre used as presentation pieces and demonstrators. I saw one which was engraved 'FOYER DISPLAY'.
It doesnt appear to be of the same standard as many of the 'Armourers Sectioned' rifles I've seen (ie the butt is not sectioned) so maybe just a civvy job.
If this was a firearm and then made 'inert' presumably there will be a record of it on the national firearms register and some piece of paper to say it has been 'destroyed'.
It is pretty much to the official spec AldeE. The rifles were done at List Engineering at Dagenham during the 50's to a certain spec. The butts and other bits and pieces could be and were sectioned locally to show points that were relevant locally. Butts were cut away further at recruit depots to show the correct method of packing the pullthrough and oil bottle. But generally, this was the spec. Those hundreds that I used to see regularly had SKN XXXX type serial numbers but the original number could still be seen occasionally.
Occasionally we would have to machine a new magazine for these if there wasn't one in the spares trays from a scrapped SKN rifle. They were a pig to hold because of their bloody minded shape. If I remember correctly, they were gripped from inside and out at the parallel front and back edges across the milling table, then cut. But there was something odd about the inherent strength in that if you milled the slots first, the whole thing would collapse when you milled the big hole - or vice versa!
I often used to wonder about the Mk1/2 SKN rifles. Thinking that if they were sectioned by List in the 50's, then they could hardly have been used at all as Mk1/2's! If they were converted from Mk1 to 1/2 in the early 50's, then to SKN spec in 1955/56/57 or so. List also did the vast bulk of the skeletonised Brens too.
There's a little pre-quel to that too because the skeletonisation work/contract was temptingly offered to Sterling - of Sterling SMG fame - as a bit of a sweetened over certain patent rights enjoyed by the designers and patentees of the Sterling SMG's. Sterling were busy with their early SMG's that were already selling in good numbers so Mr Redgrave side loaded the Enfield sub contract work to Bert List at List Engineering also locally at Dagenham.
The result was List was happy, Sterling were happy and not compromised. And later, took Enfield/The Government to court for breech of patent rights and Enfield got their work done cheaper by List! The Government lost the case and paid Sterling a lot of money for their cheek.
There............... all because of skeletonised guns. Another little bit of useless Enfield history!
There is no doubt however that it does not benefit from the 1988 Act in terms of De-activated Weapons. For that to be the case it MUST be deactivated to the specification laid by the Home Office AND examined and be certified as such by the Gunmakers Company or the Birmingham Proof House. This is laid down in the primary legislation and there is no way around it.
:crying:
Son = Murderer !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Son
Not wanting to highjack this thread but would be gratefull for opinions as various bodies have been unable to give a clear explanation regarding status of this item.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
Please scroll to the bottom of the page to view deac info.
These do not come with a UK proof house deac cert,nor do you have to be a re-enactor to buy.
Many thanks Kevin
P.S if mods deem this inapropriate my appologies and please delete.
In that case, it will again not benefit from the 1988 Act because the item specifically say that it does have a proof House Certificate.
Next, European Directives are not Law. That directive will have had to rolled into English Law somewhere or, in my opinion, one will be relying on the European Court of Justice. Additionally, in terms of Firearms Laws, Member States are allowed to have stricter firearms laws than the EU Directives if they so wish. For example, we are not allowed to own pistols whereas the rest of the EU is.
Finally although the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction Act specifically excludes from the definition of a “realistic imitation firearm” anything that: "is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique" it does not make it clear whether or not the "de-activated firearm" MUST be one within the meaning of the 1988 Act. In other words this could be another one for the courts.
BTW I would be interested where the ownership of a de-activated Firearm by an under 18 is prohibited by English Law.
Finally I wonder where on earth they find people with fourteen hundred quid to spend on one.
It might be deemed not to be a firearm, but you'd have to be prosecuted, convicted in the magistrates' court, and then appeal it to find out.
@Son: What were the circumstances of those deacts? I'm assuming it's due to the volume of Lithgow SMLE's in australia and the legal limits on how many a person can own?
Those ones are still in the D^D system. They are used as presentation pieces after being "stuffed and mounted".Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Thats a lovely little skeletonised rifle, unfortunately here in New Zealand it's considered a pistol (under 30 inches) and MUST be on a 'C Endorsement' (Restricted Weapons) which tends to upset the general 'Lee Enfield' collector.
Whilst I make no claims to professional expertise, it's my understanding that these exploit a legal loophole whereby if it is *made* in the factory as a deact then the regs regarding previously functional firearms rendered deactivated do not apply. I.e. it has *never* been a functional firearm in the first place. I have a vague recollection that there are a few similar 'factory deactivated' L85A1 assault rifles about that have non-welded actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
I know Rusmilitary have been selling these for a few years and I assume that if they were doing something blatantly illegal, it would have been dealt with by now.
Happy to be corrected, etc.
Mark
Here are 3 No. 4 Skeleton Actions. The ATF is ambivalent about the original short barrels. Sometimes they are ok, other times not ok. Replaced mine with full length barrels and saved the originals just to be safe.
I take it you like FALs and SLRs then! Nice No4 Skeleton.
And a Mk1/2 at the bottom too. I never saw a Mk2 skeletonised as they were all pretty new when the programme started in ernest but I suppose that there must be a couple out there. Have seen two ex T rifles skeletonised and have seen plenty of all marks DP'd including, once again, a former T rifle.
Just as a matter of academic interest Jona, would the BATF/legal situation re barrel lengths change if you simply slot milled the short barrel for its full length? I have to say, the full length skn rifle does look good
Jona, whats the name of the type of board you use to display your items on. I'm after similar but cant find a name to search for. Cheers, Chris.Quote:
Originally Posted by jona
Over here it's called pegboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
The BATFE(forgot the "E" above) seems to make its own rules as it goes along. Friend of mine has a number of the SKNs with the short barrels and the BATFE has passed all of them. The the regulation still applies about short barrels. They CAN allow for SKNs, BUT they don't HAVE too. So you can see my problem, and one of the problems we have here in the U.S.A. The same Quandary would apply with a full length cut in the barrel. The actual spec is that the gun be able to fire 1(one) round. Whether or not that would be safe or practical, has nothing to do with it. The Mk 2 skeleton was converted from a Mk 1/2. Perhaps it was considered less valuable than a true Mk 2, also the block immediately below the trigger pin is cracked, so rather than repair the block, the rifle was skeletonized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Brit plumber: Jrhead75 is spot on, here it is called pegboard. Can be acquired at any lumber yard or home supply in 4' by 6' sheets. If not called that in your area, it is masonite with holes drilled in it every inch. There are special hooks made to be used with it, or, if your are real penurious, you can make them from wire coat hangers. I use both types.
Have one L1A1 tricked out to look like a C1(managed to get a complete walnut stock set), and a collection of FAL bayonets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
Me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
Yeah I have a hankering for them :madsmile:
Do you have some bits your want to get rid of ;) :runaway:
Ohhhhhhhhh your meaning jona D'OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :banghead:
Nice TYPE A and TYPE C Bayonets jona :cheers:
Sorry about my late reply , I'm new , so much stuff to read , so little time . If I'm correct the SKN No4s will chamber a round , but all ones I've seen have a slotted barrel , so it must be a "non" gun . I remember our cadet force SKN was a No1 MkIII* with no barrel slot and some clown had tried hammering the firing pin longer , without success fortunately . (we also had a lovely SKN Bren MkI).
I have a sectioned SMLE No1 MKIII that has been deactivated with cert it has pinned chamber etc.
I would like a Skeleton No4 and would like a definitive answer if I found a skn numbered one would it be UK legal if it had not been deactivated with cert and able to except drill rounds ? as if I am going to buy one would prefer one that can still chamber if UK legal
Thanks for your time
I have attatched (hopefully) pictures of a sectioned No4 I bought some years ago, even though the chamber is completely exposed it is stil classed as a "Section 1 firearm" ie classed as a fully functioning firearm and therefore held on license as the bolt is untouched and could be used in another rifle. It still "chambers" rounds as can be seen and would fire a live round if someone was stupid enough to try it but I hate to think of the consequences The rifle came with a plaque part of which reads :-
" Presented to RSM (WO1) J Pettifar, Royal Fusiliers By the REME Armourers, with thanks"
The Skeleton action in question is almost certainly a "Section 1" item as the breech still appears intact as I suspect is the bolt. I also own both SMLE and No4 skeleton actions both of which have been deactivated to the current specification ie barrel blocked & pinned, bolt rendered unusable by grinding the bolt face and locking lugs, they have both been to the proof house and have the correct documentation. The action in question appears to be an expensive pile of potential problems....
I recently purchased a No4 SKN at auction. The auctioneer had spoken with the proof house and the pattern room and various Police Forces and all apart from Yorkshire Police Foce said it was a 'non-firearm' and was not an FAC item.
The bolt had been 'sectioned' so maybe that made the difference.
There is another thread I started - have a look :
No4 Mk1 Cutaway (Skeleton) Action
Maybe Buccaneer should skeletonise the bolt for its full length down the recess of the long locking shoulder and ask them to reconsider. 'Discharging a shot bullet or other like missile' doesn't include discharging it out of the side, totally out of control.............. That is no more a 'firearm' than my car is.................
Hi Peter, one day I will get round to deacting the bolt but the bottom line still remains that the law is what the law is and not what we want it to be, any common sense person could see that this rifle could not discharge anything but common sense disappeared years ago, it does not comply with the current regulations and we are stuck with it. :surrender:
The law defines a firearm as ............... While I'm no expert on these things, if the bolt was slotted and I was asked for an opinion............... as I have been on several/many occasions, then guess what I'd say...........?
Hi
After some days on the internet searching for a SKN No4 of the 5 I found for sale in the UK they had all been deactivated. Prices for them seem to vary from £160 too £300. I decided to take the plunge and buy this one (see pictures) It was not only the most inexpensive at £160 but also seemed to be in the best condition. I also spoke to several dealers who are all under the impression that they required deactivation to be held legally off licence. After consideration I think buying one with a deact certificate could save any uncertainty with interpretation of current laws or any future changes.
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