My New 1941 Jungle Carbine!!!????

Hey Guys!!
I just bought this gun tonight( it just showed up). I believe it is a 1941 Jungle Carbine. It is missing the rear sight and has some repairs to the tail stock. The barrel is marked " Santa Fe Jungle Carbine Mk1 MD 12011 Golden State Arms Corp Pasadena California". I assume this is the U.S. importer. The Bolt matches the gun and the rifling looks very crisp. The serial number is 95341E. The over all condition of the gun is pretty nice and does not look abused. I dont have anything like it and thought it would be a good addition to the collection. I dont know antything about these. Take a look at the photos and any info is welcome. I paid $300.00 for it.

Thanks Guys !!!!!
Scott

It is not a real jungle carbine but one "built" to look like a real one. The real one would be a No 5, the one you have is converted from another Lee Enfield.

That's a premium price for a fake.

It's an Ishapore (India) SMLE Mark III* modified by/for the importer for sale to Americans who didn't know or care that it's definitely not a genuine No.5 Mk.1.

That is interesting........so what was it? And should I try to change it back to original? Or should I just shoot the crap out of it!( that would be fun).
Thanks for the info!

I havent paid for it yet........What is it worth? Or should I just walk away? A friend of mine had traded some stuff for it today...and brought it to me ...I can still beat him up on the price but want to be fair.

IMHO (which is very humble), I probably wouldn't pay more than $100 for that rifle. It is a fake, as mentioned above, and would have maybe been worth $200-250 if it hadn't been monkeyed with. It cannot be returned to original configuration as a No.1 Mk.III*, and it will never be a No.5 Mk.1. If it were me, I'd hold onto my $300, add $100-150 to it and look for a genuine No.5.

Regarding the "missing" rear sight, they cut the charger bridge out, and stuck in a made-up flip sight. They also cut the end off of the barrel and stuck on a flash hider. I seem to remember a post on another forum (my memory is like swiss cheese these days) that mentioned a Santa Fe copy of a No.5 that ended up launching its poorly-fitting flash hider down range.

This is all my own opinion, and no offence is meant.

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Originally Posted by Headhunter

Or should I just walk away?

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That is what I'd do. The worst bit is the way that the Bridge Charger Guide has been butchered.

Not even a fake, really. It's just something make to look vaguely like a more popular (at least more costly) rifle. Sort of like a VW bug made to look like a Ferrari. It won't fool the Ferrari guys, but it's kind of sporty. If it shoots and does what you want, then maybe a $200 rifle give or take $50. Otherwise, I'm w/ Spinecracker.

The rear sight mod was apparently done by Santa Fe when they were busy cutting it up.


Here's a similar thread wherein Steve H. in NY first "'splained it" to me. If I've seen one in person, it didn't register beyond "not original-move along...".

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=19660

Thanks for your additional photos, Headhunter. The ventilated handguard DOES look sort of familiar, but still it's nothing to get all excited about.

Leave it as is...there's actually a bit of a collectors' niche for the Santa Fe conversions. They were pretty nicely done starting in the late '40s or early '50s, back when such "vandalism" wasn't quite so roundly frowned upon.

That said...$300 is too much by about half.

Thanks for all the info guys!! I will let it soak in for a day or two....It does look cool hanging on the wall...maybe not $300 bucks cool ...but still cool. I need to talk one of my buddies into shooting it first!!!!!! I dont want to be the first one! Ha HA !

Thanks again for all the help!

You pretty much got the story, that JC's came out in 44/45/46 so you have a rifle that was made /converted by a well known american company, right down to that rear sight idea which I've seen before. Its a rifle to shoot and have fun with, go hunting, beat it up use it up wear it out and keep the other original rifle at home on the wall safe from harm. $300 would get you an original one, go cruise on gunbroker.com for a good look at JC prices and conditions. if you haven't committed to the $300, either drop it by half, or you could pass on the rifle. If you like it for its character, try $125 and go shoot and enjoy it. Its not a bad deal and not a bad rifle, just in a different group than other enfields. There are other similar rifles by navy arms, go to enfield resource.com and look them up, their stuff looks similar and I liked the one or two I owned, even though the teak stain washed off in the rain, now that was a mess!

I picked up a genuine jungle carbine in great shape for just over $200 not to long ago so they are out there. I'd definitely pass on this one. But that's just my personal preference. I want something as authentic as possible and for just a shooter, there are other models of this out there to be had and still have the opportunity to bring them back to original configuration. This one's been too chopped up.

I bought one a few months ago from someone who needed the money as a shooter for a good price.
The rifle has Century Arms import marks and I believe it's from the Gibbs Rifle Co.

Historical Remakes

I wanted a bolt action 7.62*51 and I'm happy.
Now I'm interested in the whole Lee-Enfield thing, like I needed another reason to spend money on firearms. : )

Before you throw this little rifle away, be aware that you can likely buy the rifle for about $225-250. The price you quoted is a few dollars too high, but there is no way that $100 will buy the Santa Fe Jungle Carbine ANYWHERE in this country at any gunshow or shop. If someone insists on that price, let them go out and find one for that. It can't be done.

These rifles shoot decently. I have never owned one but have had occasion to fire them at the range. Ask for a price reduction to about $225 and keep this odd bit of very nice 60's "nostalgia." They really are sort of a niche rifle for collectors, very much like the Gibbs' rifles shown above.

And, keep on the lookout for a No. 5. They will start considerably higher though.

Why not turn down the deal, save your money and find a authentic No 5 and have a very nice gun. IMHO the gun you have is a truck gun, and really not worth much if anything. I have friends who have cut down Lee Enfields in their truck for when they are in the mountains just in case they run into bear problems etc.

If you really want it be sure it is a shooter otherwise it is worthless.

Just shop and wait for the right deal. I got my No.5 for under $250 a few months ago and that only took a couple of months of searching.
Why have a Yugo when you can have a Mustang for the same price?

I think this is somthing you can only answer yourself. Did you want a Orignal Rifle that you know is a standard service rifle, or did you want this because of the aesthetic pleasure you get from it? If you like the gun, buy it, but at a price you feal fair from comments made by people in the know. If your more intrested in a original rifle, decline the offer, spend a few months here getting to know what you want (After all, there a dozens of varients and all but the rarest are reasonably priced) and maybe a forum member may have a nice example of what you want for sale.

I'm no Lee Enfield expert, but there are various models to consider.

Lee Metford (Not a Enfield Barrel but a Meford rifled barrel) various Marks, versions and Various Manufaturers of different commonwealth countries.
Long Lee Enfield, As above pretty much, AKA LLE or LE
Charger Loading Lee Enfield, as above modified with a charger bridge etc. AKA CLLE
Short Magazine Lee Enfield AKA Sht Lee Enfield, SMLE or Later the Rifle No1 Mk1,3,5,6 etc, Again lots of varients including the MkV and MkVI (V is a troop trials rifle, VI is a lesser produced Trial rifle for the later No.4 Lee Enfield)
Lee Enfield No.4, the Standard WW2 British battle rifle produced after the SMLE
Lee Enfield No.5, AKA the Jungle carbine,
Lee Enfield No.6, A Lithgow Australia produced Jungle carbine built on the SMLE which is the only type of Lee Enfield they mass produced.
Lee Enfield No.7, a .22 version? Experts will explain more on this as I'm not sure.
Lee Enfield No.8, a .22 version based on the No.4 but looks like a simpler Jungle Carbine AKA Cadet Rifle
Lee Enfield No.9 Cant remember

As you can see there are a lifes time worth of varients to collect, if you buy one, guaranteed you will buy another!!!!!!

ATB, Chris.

Hey Guys I have thougt it over and I am going to keep the rifle. The money isnt really the issue. This rifle showed up unexpectedly and caught my fancy....It is cool.....I own two T's...The latest being a 1945 Long Branch....And I am sure I will buy jungle in do time...until then I am going to shoot the crap out this one! I do want to thank all of you for the advice! Sunday I new nothing of this gun and on Tuesday I am an expert! Thanks again!

Here are a couple of pics of my Long Branch!

Scott

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Originally Posted by Headhunter

Here are a couple of pics of my Long Branch!

Scott

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That's a pretty looking Long Branch .. :thup:

Regards,
Doug

Nice, nice rifle, ...
I've ever puzzled over my fascination with enfields. I mean, why them? There's oodles of other's to be had, and technically enfield's could have room for improvement. The fascination is not that they were a perfect rifle and a world beater, but more probably it's that they're not and they're a world beater. Enfield's creation of better and better rifles over time is a fascinating journey to look at and touch. When I started on guns I hadn't the faintest idea I'd end up with scientific level insights about gun engineering and ballistics.
A new phrase in our lexicon, 'steam punk', is very interesting. A good example is the Will Smith movie 'Wild Wild West'. Its full of improbable iron machinery held together with giant nuts, bolts and rivets, and hissing steam out of exposed, spinning valves, a rich blend of steam, iron and brass. I've decided, for now, that steam punk sums up a great deal of my fascination with enfields. They're from a pre radio, television, plastics era when anything made of iron and wood had the hands of craftsmen in every element and was made to endure and perform. So thats it for my love of enfields, a highly functioning work of steam punk art.

Steam punk is a term thats not widely used, but if you want to see what it encompasses, go to google images, and do a search under steam punk, try steam punk motorcycles. There's everything from1930's superhero motorcycles to things Dr Frankenstein might have used.

rant off, just enjoying tinkering with my enfields today ...

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Originally Posted by Headhunter

Hey Guys I have thougt it over and I am going to keep the rifle. The money isnt really the issue. This rifle showed up unexpectedly and caught my fancy....It is cool.....I own two T's...The latest being a 1945 Long Branch....And I am sure I will buy jungle in do time...until then I am going to shoot the crap out this one! I do want to thank all of you for the advice! Sunday I new nothing of this gun and on Tuesday I am an expert! Thanks again!

Here are a couple of pics of my Long Branch!

Scott

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Yumpin' Yiminy! A Long Branch No.4 Mk.1(T) WITH a Long Branch bracket! Is it a R.E.L. scope as well? You started near the top of "hard to find" list. Could you share some more about that beastie?

Yah, I'm guessing $100-200 isn't a huge concern.:lol:

Yes the Long Branch is a very cool piece! And yes I am sure I over paid for it( I see a pattern forming). It is a R.E.L. scope but not matching to the gun. I dont think the brachet is Long Branch( I dont know), maybe you would be able to tell. This is my first year that I was able to start collecting. I am a collecting virgin.....more money than brains. Attached are more pics. I was looking for production numbers on this rifle(how many were built?). Any info is welcome and needed.

thanks again guys!

Scott

Headhunter, having more money than brains will quickly qualify you as being a Lee Enfield collector. LOL It truly is addicting and the biggest problem is you will never get them all but will try very hard to accomplish that feat. Saw a No 4 the other day that would make EVERYONE on this site drool to the point of self destruction. Hope someday to be able to post on this gun but am SWORN to secrecy for the time being....too bad.

...and I've spent 4 years and growing on the restoration of limited production no4 that had been hunterized, one of those situations where if one has the money it won't make rare items appear from nowhere, so I got lucky and I'm honoring that luck by restoring it to her glory days, and thats just one enfield I've got, the safe is full of sisters like her. It's actually a bit better than not having a project rifle because a trip to the gun show will leave me quite satisfied with a $10 part, whereas I'd normally have to buy a whole rifle to get that retail therapy.
Welcome to the asylum ... we speak in strange codes, use measuring systems that only the pharoahs might understand and I'm sure there's a secret enfield handshake out there somewhere, its something to do with reaching for the wallet very very quickly, I 'm sure, lol

"Retail therapy"...I like that! :lol:

Therapy????????is that what they call what we need?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mack

Before you throw this little rifle away, be aware that you can likely buy the rifle for about $225-250. The price you quoted is a few dollars too high, but there is no way that $100 will buy the Santa Fe Jungle Carbine ANYWHERE in this country at any gunshow or shop. If someone insists on that price, let them go out and find one for that. It can't be done.

These rifles shoot decently. I have never owned one but have had occasion to fire them at the range. Ask for a price reduction to about $225 and keep this odd bit of very nice 60's "nostalgia." They really are sort of a niche rifle for collectors, very much like the Gibbs' rifles shown above.

And, keep on the lookout for a No. 5. They will start considerably higher though.

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I hate to burst your theory but I paid $100 two weeks ago. :dancingbanana:


http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ub...I_ju#Post47851


I was missing the sights on mine too. It was drilled and tapped for a Williams scope mount. I found one and rings on Ebay for less than $20. I want to find a vintage Weaver or Lyman scope now.

I would love to find the correct iron sights though. It's a sweet handling carbine.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d23aed_z-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by pvfd304

I hate to burst your theory but I paid $100 two weeks ago. :dancingbanana:


http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ub...I_ju#Post47851


I was missing the sights on mine too. It was drilled and tapped for a Williams scope mount. I found one and rings on Ebay for less than $20. I want to find a vintage Weaver or Lyman scope now.

I would love to find the correct iron sights though. It's a sweet handling carbine.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d23aed_z-1.jpg

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His sight wasn't missing. Plus, subtract value for added holes. So..., you're all about right! Not that a hundred dollars either way amounts to much any more.

Is there something odd about the scope mount for that Long Branch "T"? Have a close look at the rear arm of the mount... an Iron Cross stamp... is that meant to be there?

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Originally Posted by RobD

Is there something odd about the scope mount for that Long Branch "T"? Have a close look at the rear arm of the mount... an Iron Cross stamp... is that meant to be there?

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Let's say it's "no surprise". Those little crosses ought to found elsewhere as well. The Bracket LOOKS OK in regard to several features I've seen photographed on other examples. Unfortunately my hands on exposure is almost nil w/ the Canadian (T)s' scopes. I'm not willing to pronounce "goodness" on the whole thing, as I have only one Long Branch No.4 Mk.1*(T) and it's w/o scope AND bracket!

S/N 270 R.E.L. scope anyone?

I dont have the rifle in front of me....I bought it from Valmont Firearms in the U.K....We are waiting for final permits for the shipping to the U.S...( I cant wait).You guys will know more about the markings than me. If you look at the front of the bracket there is a circle and arrow that looks hand etched.....These are the things I need to verify. I was trying to find some production numbers...how rare is it? ...how many were made? And what is a real dollar value...I paid a premium for it..........Because it is cool!:cool:

Really, if you want proper attention paid to the Canadian rifle--Start a new thread! Doesn't cost much, and with the proper title, those who won't pay attention to a cobbled "No.6 rifle" (Jungle Carbine), WILL look to see what new L.B. No.4 Mk.1*(T) has emerged! There's a "few" folk on this forum who have quite a good knowledge base on this exact subject.

point well taken!

Thanks J

Please check your PM messages.

I agree with Jrhead. It's not a fake, it says what it is on the side "Sante Fe Jungle Carbine". Information about this co. is everywhere. It's no secret, and they weren't trying to hump anybody.
Some of Sante Fe's higher grade rifle conversions look OK, and I may have one someday. They had 3 grades. In this down market, $300 would be a large reach, in my world. The rear sight was copied from some factory conversions of No. 1's to shortened and lightened. There are pics in the book. Heck fire, I have a hunting rifle conversion made on a No. 4 Mk1 Trials rifle, dated 1933. I wish they hadn't done it, but then I probably wouldn't have it now, then! Shoot the rifling out of it!

Well It is bought and paid for now!! I think shooting the crap out of it is the only thing left!!!!! Thanks for all the feed back on this guys.........it was more than I expected.

Thanks Again
Scott:beerchug:

I suggest that you invest in a sissy pad.

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Originally Posted by finloq

I suggest that you invest in a sissy pad.

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or you could try doing something like this. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=591979
It makes it far more fun for fun shooting but completely reversible so no loss of originality.
Steve.

It looks like a legit Canadian scope bracket with the rifle serial number milled out. The little Maltese cross is a correct marking on a Canadian No.4T.

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Originally Posted by RJW NZ

Steam punk is a term thats not widely used,

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I reckon there are just as many people who know what 'steam punk' is as there are people who know what a charger clip is :^) Many of my friends who are in the computer / technical field are fans of steam punk and and appreciate my enfields, polished walnut, blue steel and brass. screwed and rivetted, no welding. Each one was hand fitted, then customised for the user (butt and fwd sight)
The Mk III had the fairly extraneous volley sights and cutoff. Enfields are definitely steam punk! Now if the No 1 Mk III had a Pedersen device nad a illuminated reticle scope......

"Steam Punk". That is a new one for me.

Just shows what a pedestrian life I must be living.:o

:rofl: Steam Punk...:clap:... Yep Steam Punk and Enfields do indeed go hand in hand. In fact over the past weeks I have been helping a friend build up a Steam Punk prop rifle for his Dragon Con* costume in my spare time. It is a non firing "rifle" but it has been built on a drilled SMLE DP action using worn out, DP or broken SMLE parts. It now has something akin to a Pederson Device, a Galilean telescopic sight and lots of pretty copper and brass bits. A real Steam Punk Enfield..... And no, he did not use anything that was salvageable on his "rifle". I would not allow it.

* For the uninitiated, Dragon Con is a 4 day long costume party/Pop-culture convention of epic levels of nerd and geekdom in Atlanta GA that is the largest on the east coast and only surpassed in size by Comic-Con in San Diego. You can see everyone from the Myth Busters and T.A.P.S. crews to the bands Cruxshadows and Bella Morte to authors like Charlaine Harris or Jonathan Mayberry and actors like William Shatner and Elvira. If you have not been and have the opportunity to go, don't pass it up. It is a lot of fun.

Cool, i'd love to see a pic of that. I built a custom NERF gun last during winter 2009-10 mainly Enfield inspired, indeed the sling swivels were from a SMLE, and for a steam punk sling a home made patt 14 leather one looks great. The project helped keep me out out the pub while the yacht I work on was wintering in England.

As mentioned, back in the late 1950s and early 1960s there were a lot of surplus firearms available. Companies like Santa Fe bought many of them and modified some to produce a handier rifle in line with American hunters expectations. Importers like Klein in Chicago, Century Arms, Ye Olde Hunter, Hunter's Lodge, and others sporterized them because you could buy a SMLE for $9.95 but a Sporterized SMLE was $14.95. Doesn't sound like much now, but that is 50% more for a bit of work, and more chance of selling them. There were not the collectors and enthusiasts then that we have now.

I made a trip to Alexandria, Virginia with a friend back in the late 50s, and bought FIVE cased No.4 Mark 1 T rifles, complete with scope, tins, wooden case, etc, but the funny part was the British kept the Observation Telescopes. The cost was $49.95 each.

Maybe I missed it, but I am surprised that no one seems to have mentioned the one really distinguishing feature of the Santa Fe Jungle Carbines. The four air cooling slots routed across the fore-end. Almost an immediate identification.
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