New Garand Day!! 12-1941 - Lend lease?

Hey guys, my new garand just arrived. Serial is 426956. it has a 12-1941 barrel with Brit Proof markings.

It looks original, except the rear sight pinion may be a later type 2. i cannot take off the lockbar to check it. it seems too tight and would need a wrench to turn it all the way off.

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8204.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8205.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8207.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8208.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8209.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8210.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8211.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8212.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8213.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8215.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8216.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8217.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8220.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8221.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8223.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8224.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8225.jpg
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...K/IMG_8227.jpg

Nice looking metal on your rifle, the most expensive items were removed such as the short pinion/flush nut and cartouched stock. Some collectors perfer to have the British proof marks located at the rear of the barrel (example in photo). Are you going to look for a short pinion/flush nut and SA GHS stock ?Attachment 16833

I think it is still a long channel GHS stock, the CC is there, but the box really isnt visible. it looks to have been sanded all over

I have been thinking about finding a legit rear sight. At least it has the checkered knob, i just need the pinion and nut. any suggestions?

The stock looks like the correct one but the GHS is not visible. I see what looks to be the ordnance wheel but not sure. The stock does appear to have been sanded somewhat.
The throat looks to be the long one and there is a code in the channel and the front ferrule has the dimple.
It does need the flush nut lock with the short pinion rear sight.

Could you tell me what the receiver heat lot is? It looks like B5 or B6?

the heat lot is B6.

The stock is a long channel with slanted clip latch cut and i think it is a "4" in the channel.

You still have your front sight seal, lots of them were removed. Looks good. To bad they stamped it on the front of the barrel, mine's under the op rod handle.

thank you. does anyone know if the lend leases show up in the SRS index?

When i was waiting for it, i was told the brit marks were on the left side. i hoped that meant behind the op rod, so on the left side if facing the rifle. but not so much. With the gauging of the barrel, i am still quite more than pleased with it. Now i have to decide what other one to let go. Then again, i dont really NEED to let one go.

I would rather have the BNP's not obscuring SA's markings on the side of the barrel..under the op rod, it is what it is, from the UK.
Mine is marked on the very top too, 2/42 with short pinion type 1 lockbar, sanded, but for the "P". Its nice to find nice 41-43 M1's.

Was this a private sale? If not where could I look to purchase a M1 of this caliber( I couldn't resist) I presently deal only with CMP. Considering opening my options.

There are different places to go, other forums, classified ads, GCA ads, gun shows. you just have to keep your eyes open, and willing to put in the time.

Sometimes I have taken a gamble and not had it pay off. This time it did.

Overall, i have been looking for a reasonably priced Brit proofed, hopefully lend lease garand. I am happy with this one, the date(12-1941), the condition of the barrel is great, there are still a few pieces in the white. and the color, and history make it a nice keeper for me.

This one is the closest i have to an original rifle, not counting my CMP correct grade HRA, and my personally restored 10-43 SA.

It is the real thing except for the lock bar sight. Mine has the same test marks on the receiver ring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by davfink

thank you. does anyone know if the lend leases show up in the SRS index? .

---

I have Vol. 1 (1983) and Vol. 2 1986 of the SRS "Serial Numbers of Martial Arms", just based on where the information relating to M1 ser. numbers came from, I would say no, at least not in my books. Vol. 1 indicates the main sources of information on M1 rifles were the post WW2 records of SA and records of the DCM, which show mostly NM rifles. In Vol. 2 the main source of data is from pre WW2 records of the USMC. My Vol. 1 only lists six rifles in the 400,000 range and they are all records from the 1950s.

I would guess the reason some have indicated they would rather the British Proof markings be at the rear of the barrel, behind Op-Rod is because those rifles are the only ones you can be sure are, in fact, lend lease. Those marked in the front between rings of gas cylinder may or may not be lend lease. While yours certainly is within the correct range, you just can't tell for sure.

As far as the lock bar sights, they were a upgrade from the short-pinion/flush nut. My guess is that the original sights w/ flush nut on your rifle were not removed by a collector looking to make a few dollars, but were changed back in the 1940's.

Are you aware that you can tell the year your rifle was proofed for export at Birmingham by examining the "date code" in the left angle of the "crossed swords". They started with the letter A for 1950 and progressed (omitting the letter I ), to the letter Z for 1974.

In any case, you have a beautiful rifle and I would think long and hard before spending the money that is being asked for short pinion/flush nut sights and ligit SA/GHS stock. And before I bought a stock I would want the opinion of an expert. Just to many fakes floating around.

As someone else said, it is what it is, and anyone would be happy to own it.
By the way, the rifle in my AVATAR is 422881. From what I can see of your parts, they are the same, except the heat lot on my -2 bolt is RE4A

OK, you are a few little parts shy that you get to groan about, but what is there is absolutely magnificent - congratulations on a veryu nice find. Seriously, the condition is absolutely impecable. Look to the leading edge of the bolton top - one of the neat things that I got to do was go thru a few racks of flat new collector grade rifles at the North store when they had them a few years ago and this seemed to be one of the first areas to show signs of wear and firing (it is where the bolt passes under the receiver bridge) - yours is showing only the slightest signs of wear and looks to be nearly perfect!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_8207-1.jpg

Also cool is in this picture you can see the little BNP proof mark that they placed on the barrel ring of the receiver and bolt (see the smudge and if you look close you can see the little BNP to the right in this picture) - the hardened steel of these parts was very hard on the steel of the stamp which slowly got pounded into what ends up being more of a blob than anything else - the result is that they look like (and many people mistake them for) a small imperfection in the metal, but isn't it odd that roughly the same shape and size imperfection is in two different parts at the same time (grin).

Yours actually appear to be almost discernable and quite nice - some are really just blobs that look like an imperfection. (As an aside, it is this kind of information that, while neat can also be a tidbit of information that is quite useful by pointing to something tht you might not be seeing - let me explain; if in your gunshow travels you happen to trip across a near mint early Garand that is NOT Brit marked on the barrel it would be quite a find. But, as such a rifle tended to get a premium in years past, back in the day when early barrels might still be found in excellent condion, there were fellas who sould swap out a barrerl for a non-Brit marked one and there was little or nothing they could do about, even had they noticed, those little Brit BNP marks ... and because you know that they are part of the British proving marks you would be able to spot such an altered item ...).

Also in that picture is something I can't say that I have seen - on the bolt to the far right of the markings is another 'B'. It doesn't appear to be a skip on the 'RE4B' but it sure looks to be the same 'B'. There are wayward marks on bolts and several other parts and that 'B' is not an uncommon one. Kinda neat and I can't say I have ever seen that before.

Other than that, boy I have to say that I am impressed with the general condition of the rifle. The stock sure appears to be a correct long channel but finding one with a cartouche AND in that condition is going to be ... well, you will have to buy a whole LL rifle to get that. I am not saying it wouldn't be worth it to buy someone's restoration and part it out, just that loose wood is impossible and unreasonably expensive (I actually think someone has a restoration of one up on gunbroker right now with a very nice stock - he even said he could make more money but couldn't bear to part it out). Me? I'd be happy with that one - it sure looks to be the right one already ...

But again, condition of the metal is in my experience, far above average - that is a gorgeous rifle, ... really gorgeous.

Congrats again - very nice find.

(PS; on the short pinion flushnut rear sight, you can either put an ad in the back of the GCA Journal or, at the end of one of your posts on this string I would put your email up and just mention that you are in the market for one - I know there is one fella reading here with a few REAL ones left yet from years past and that he has been slowly selling them off. It won't be a give-away but it will be fair, just put it out there and see what happens)

Thank you for all the compiments and observations on this rifle. I noticed the extra B on the bolt, and if you look above it, there is also a cut off 4 visible too.

I probably wont replace the stock, just a coat of RLO on it( correct period for RLO use?) I am debating on the flush, since a flush would be cool, and different, but not necessary. it was also odd that the checkered elevation was kept when switching out the pinion and bar.

I will have to check the date on the proof when i get home since my picture is not clear enough to tell
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ritproof-1.jpg

Looks like it may be an "F" which would indicate it was proofed in 1955. I believe it was in 1955 that Sam Cummings of "Interarms," importd the first group of LL rifles from Great Britain. This first batch, according to Bob Seijas, were the rifles that were proofed in the date area behind the op-rod. Bob also said " maybe InterArms didn't get them all the first time around, and the second lot got marked in front." Your rifle, if proofed in 1955, would tend to support that therory.
I agree with you that it would be nice to be able to put a short pinion/flush nut on it, if you can find one at a fair price. That rifle is so nice it really deserves one. As the Bodyman said, put an ad in the GCA Journal and see what may turn up.

I kow of a really nice lend lease for sale. I was so tempted, but am going to stay strong and not buy.

I looked at it, and it really looks like a B. the mark on the right side of the "x" looks like a B, so that would be 1951?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by davfink

I looked at it, and it really looks like a B. the mark on the right side of the "x" looks like a B, so that would be 1951?

---

The year code is the letter in the "left Angle" of what is crossed swords. The right angle always contains a "B" which indicates "Birmingham". The digit on the bottom, in your case, a "4", is the seniority of the inspector. This number will be 1 to 8. If you compare the "B" on the right to the letter on the left, I believe you will find they are not the same. Also, I don't believe any L.L. rifles were released by Great Britian until those purchased by Sam Cummings in about 1955.

The Birmingham Proof House did not start proof marking Garands at the muzzle end of the barrel until about the 1960s. The date code in the View Mark looks like an L to me which would make the proof date 1960.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

The Birmingham Proof House did not start proof marking Garands at the muzzle end of the barrel until about the 1960s. The date code in the View Mark looks like an L to me which would make the proof date 1960.

---

Tom, Where did you get that information ?? As far as I know, based on Scott Duff's article "Garands in the Kings Service", Apr. 2002 American Rifleman, and comunications with Bob Seijas, both London and Birmingham proofed L.L. Garands. That only the first group of rifles purchased by Sam Cummings are proofed in the date area behind the op-rod. No other M1 rifles, other than that first group, are proofed in that area. An article in the GCA Journal, summer 1995, page 22) indicates that, based on the book "Deadly Business, Sam Cummings, InterArms and the Arms Trade" by Patrick Brogan and Albert Zarca, published in 1983, that it was in 1954 that Sam Cummings (Interarmco (InterArms), aquired a "consignment" of Lend Lease rifles from Great Britain through an agent in England, Cogswell and Harrison. On the other hand, Scott Duff states that it was in 1957 that Cummings was able to purchase the rifles and 1958 when they were first imported. As I am more inclined to go along with Duff, what I am saying is that Birmingham must have proofed rifles at the "muzzle end", at least as early as 1958.
As far as the "date code' on the rifle belonging to "davfink", I can only make out a straight line which appears to be seriffed on bottom and maybe the top, I can only guess what it might be. I said maybe an "F: (1955) as in Scott Duffs article, he uses an example of a "Private View Mark" showing the "date code" of "F" and and inspectors code of "1", but it may well be an "L" as you say. I would like to see a better picture of the mark.

I would appreciate any information you might have which might offer proof that Birmingham did not proof mark M1s in the muzzle area until the 1960s. I am always looking to learn more on this subject. Thanks

I'm going to look at all my rifles for all these marks I might have missed. I love this sight so much I sent a check so badger look in the po box soon and hope all will consider a contribution. no pressure!

Joe, I can't recall seeing a Garand with a Birmingham View Mark at the muzzle end of the barrel with a date code earlier than 1960. Maybe there are some, and if so I would love to see them.

Years ago I asked the Birmingham Proof House historian why some rifles were marked near the muzzle instead of under the op rod, and he told me they started doing that in the 60s because it was "easier" than marking them under the op rod.

Did Sam Cummings request that the first batch of Lend Lease Garands be marked under the op rod? I don't know if we will ever know for sure. But I can't recall seeing any of the mid 1950s released Garands with proof marks other than under the op rod, not at the muzzle end.

Like I said, if someone has a rifle with late 50s or early 60s proofs under the op rod, I would love to see them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

Joe, I can't recall seeing a Garand with a Birmingham View Mark at the muzzle end of the barrel with a date code earlier than 1960. Maybe there are some, and if so I would love to see them.

Years ago I asked the Birmingham Proof House historian why some rifles were marked near the muzzle instead of under the op rod, and he told me they started doing that in the 60s because it was "easier" than marking them under the op rod.

Did Sam Cummings request that the first batch of Lend Lease Garands be marked under the op rod? I don't know if we will ever know for sure. But I can't recall seeing any of the mid 1950s released Garands with proof marks other than under the op rod, not at the muzzle end.

Like I said, if someone has a rifle with late 50s or early 60s proofs under the op rod, I would love to see them.

---

Tom, I agree that most likely late 50s, early 60s M1 garands will not be found with the proof mark under the op-rod.

Tom, I agree that it is highly unlikely that any late 50s or early 60s M1 Garands will be found proofed under the op-rod. I had always thought that the first deal with the British for the L.L. Garands took place in 1955. I based that on various articles I had read, such as, in the Apr. 1959 issue of Guns Magizine, there is an ad by Winfield Arms selling M1 Garands "proof tested & proofed marked in Great Britain" at $ 97.50. In another article in the Oct. 1959 issue of Guns Magizine, there is an article "Arsenal on the Potomac", about Sam Cummings and "Interarmco. It states in this article, " It took four years of negotiations with the Departments of Commerce, Defense and State before a small lot of M1 rifles were released recently for public sale. The rifles spent the 48 month wait snug in blankets of cosmoline at a New York warehouse." My thought is that these were the rifles that were sold by Winfield Arms and that they would have been proofed in 1955 (prior to the four years they spent in the N.Y. warehouse).
But as I said earlier, the article in the GCA Journal indicated 1954 and Scott Duff said it was in 1957 that that Interarmsco purchased the rifles. Scott Duff says that these rifles were imported in 1958 and first sold in Feb. 1959, through Ye Old Hunter, a company owned by Cummings. Scott Duff also states in his article that Winfield Arms was a "competitor of Interarms" and had "also purchased rifles from overseas during the same time period as they advertised them for $ 97.50". Scott did not mention that the rifles sold by Winfield Arms were British Proofed. I wonder if Winfield Arms really purchased these rifles "overseas" ? As Cummings and A.C. Jackson, Vice President of Winfield Arms, had been involved in business transactions as far back as 1948, my guess would be that the rifles being sold by Winfield were obtained from Cummings.
The above is just an assumptions on my part. Seems that everything I have read is either contridictory or vague in regard to the actual date of Sam Cummings first deal for the L.L. rifles. Alot of articles I have read simply state "mid to late 50S", I never really read anything that firmly locks down the date.
You say that you were told by a "Birmingham proof house historian" that they started marking the rifles near the muzzle instead of behind the op-rod, in the 60s, because it was easier. I am surprised that it took Birmingham over 5 years to figure that out.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure you have seen alot more British proofed rifles than I have, it's just I am inclined to agree with the theory put forth by Bob Seijas, that Cummings requested the proofs be marked in the date area so they were not visible on the exterior of the rifle. As Bob further said, "they are hard to mark there and hard to see, I don't think the British would choose that location on there own." But, then again, who knows.

I notice that your gun, like my slightly earlier one, also has the brit proofs on top of the receiver ring and on the bolt. My gun is also proofed between the GC rings, like many of them.
Your bolt also has that second punch mark, toward the receiver ring end.
Lend Lease? The "Duck" adage may apply, like mine. Close enough for me!

i pulled out the magnifier and flashlight, and tried to get a good look at it. it really looks like a straight line.

I can see the detail of the "4" for inspector, and the "B" for birmingham, as well as the little marks off the cross X but i cant see any other marks other than the straight line.

Wow. I thought I knew a few things about Garands before this thread. I am blown away--both by the condition of that rifle and by the complexity of British LL rifles. Before this all I knew of the LL rifles was that 1.) many were in original configuration 2.) their time at the CMP pre-dated mine by a good bit and 3.) they are way beyond my means. :D The only ones that I have ever seen for sale run around $2.5k--without rudely asking specifics of this very nice example, is that about the going rate?

Lend Lease rifles with the British proofs at the rear of the barrel, with red paint on the front handguard and nice SA GHS cartouches, have sold in the $4500-$4800 price range.

The rifles with the British proofs on the front of the barrel are not valued as much, example you can find incomplete Winchesters and H&R's or late post WW2 SA rifles with the British proof marks at the front of the barrel. Years ago these British proof marks stamped at the front of the barrel, were often removed to add value to a restoration - especially on Winchester barrels.

Nice LL! Back to the bolt photo, you will notice a partial 2 above the B on the very right edge, cool!
FWIW my LL is also proofed between the Gas Cylinder rings.

Thanks for the compliments and history, it is pretty interesting, and i am glad i picked this one up, and at a fraction of the price of the pristine ones RCS mentioned.

Note: removed pictures, they just were not good enough to further the ID, back to the camera later

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaveTail

Wow. I thought I knew a few things about Garands before this thread. I am blown away--both by the condition of that rifle and by the complexity of British LL rifles. Before this all I knew of the LL rifles was that 1.) many were in original configuration 2.) their time at the CMP pre-dated mine by a good bit and 3.) they are way beyond my means. :D The only ones that I have ever seen for sale run around $2.5k--without rudely asking specifics of this very nice example, is that about the going rate?

---

Check out the 3rd page, 4th rifle down in this list. Click on Rifle

Did anyone else notice that the Lend Lease rifle for sale at Ohio Ord. has a grooved elevation knob instead of a checkered one? Several of the Lend Lease Garands in this serial number range have grooved elevation knobs. Now I know that some collectors believe the Lend Lease rifles were broken down for cleaning and the knobs replaced w/o regard to the type (grooved vs. checkered). But others believe that the use of the grooved elevation knob may have started earlier than had been thought. What do you guys think?

Mine is 328219, and I thought that either the part had been changed without regard or just the small difference in the serial of the one pictured (463972)was the change to grooves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

Did anyone else notice that the Lend Lease rifle for sale at Ohio Ord. has a grooved elevation knob instead of a checkered one? Several of the Lend Lease Garands in this serial number range have grooved elevation knobs. Now I know that some collectors believe the Lend Lease rifles were broken down for cleaning and the knobs replaced w/o regard to the type (grooved vs. checkered). But others believe that the use of the grooved elevation knob may have started earlier than had been thought. What do you guys think?

---

The straight knurled (grooved) begins to appear in the ~8 - 9-41 serial range but since a few books don't have them "carved in stone" that early, why dispute the written word? Perhaps some discrepancy occurs in the descriptions of "knurling" to the layman:

1. "Fine" checkered vs "coarse" checkered.

2. Straight grooved vs. straight knurl to me means the same thing. The machining principal is still the same whether the knurl is a a 45 degree diamond pattern, straight pattern (grooved), or a parallel 90 degree diamond pattern. Regardless, the grooved (straight line) pattern appears randomly in the 8 to 9-41 range and continues with increasing regularity after that.

Thanks for the learning experience.