New Garand Day!! 12-1941 - Lend lease?

[Tom Doniphon]

The Birmingham Proof House did not start proof marking Garands at the muzzle end of the barrel until about the 1960s. The date code in the View Mark looks like an L to me which would make the proof date 1960.

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[Joe W]

The Birmingham Proof House did not start proof marking Garands at the muzzle end of the barrel until about the 1960s. The date code in the View Mark looks like an L to me which would make the proof date 1960.

Tom, Where did you get that information ?? As far as I know, based on Scott Duff's article "Garands in the Kings Service", Apr. 2002 American Rifleman, and comunications with Bob Seijas, both London and Birmingham proofed L.L. Garands. That only the first group of rifles purchased by Sam Cummings are proofed in the date area behind the op-rod. No other M1 rifles, other than that first group, are proofed in that area. An article in the GCA Journal, summer 1995, page 22) indicates that, based on the book "Deadly Business, Sam Cummings, InterArms and the Arms Trade" by Patrick Brogan and Albert Zarca, published in 1983, that it was in 1954 that Sam Cummings (Interarmco (InterArms), aquired a "consignment" of Lend Lease rifles from Great Britain through an agent in England, Cogswell and Harrison. On the other hand, Scott Duff states that it was in 1957 that Cummings was able to purchase the rifles and 1958 when they were first imported. As I am more inclined to go along with Duff, what I am saying is that Birmingham must have proofed rifles at the "muzzle end", at least as early as 1958.
As far as the "date code' on the rifle belonging to "davfink", I can only make out a straight line which appears to be seriffed on bottom and maybe the top, I can only guess what it might be. I said maybe an "F: (1955) as in Scott Duffs article, he uses an example of a "Private View Mark" showing the "date code" of "F" and and inspectors code of "1", but it may well be an "L" as you say. I would like to see a better picture of the mark.

I would appreciate any information you might have which might offer proof that Birmingham did not proof mark M1s in the muzzle area until the 1960s. I am always looking to learn more on this subject. Thanks

[DaveN]

I'm going to look at all my rifles for all these marks I might have missed. I love this sight so much I sent a check so badger look in the po box soon and hope all will consider a contribution. no pressure!

[Tom Doniphon]

Joe, I can't recall seeing a Garand with a Birmingham View Mark at the muzzle end of the barrel with a date code earlier than 1960. Maybe there are some, and if so I would love to see them.

Years ago I asked the Birmingham Proof House historian why some rifles were marked near the muzzle instead of under the op rod, and he told me they started doing that in the 60s because it was "easier" than marking them under the op rod.

Did Sam Cummings request that the first batch of Lend Lease Garands be marked under the op rod? I don't know if we will ever know for sure. But I can't recall seeing any of the mid 1950s released Garands with proof marks other than under the op rod, not at the muzzle end.

Like I said, if someone has a rifle with late 50s or early 60s proofs under the op rod, I would love to see them.

[Joe W]

Joe, I can't recall seeing a Garand with a Birmingham View Mark at the muzzle end of the barrel with a date code earlier than 1960. Maybe there are some, and if so I would love to see them.

Years ago I asked the Birmingham Proof House historian why some rifles were marked near the muzzle instead of under the op rod, and he told me they started doing that in the 60s because it was "easier" than marking them under the op rod.

Did Sam Cummings request that the first batch of Lend Lease Garands be marked under the op rod? I don't know if we will ever know for sure. But I can't recall seeing any of the mid 1950s released Garands with proof marks other than under the op rod, not at the muzzle end.

Like I said, if someone has a rifle with late 50s or early 60s proofs under the op rod, I would love to see them.

Tom, I agree that most likely late 50s, early 60s M1 garands will not be found with the proof mark under the op-rod.

[Joe W]

Tom, I agree that it is highly unlikely that any late 50s or early 60s M1 Garands will be found proofed under the op-rod. I had always thought that the first deal with the British for the L.L. Garands took place in 1955. I based that on various articles I had read, such as, in the Apr. 1959 issue of Guns Magizine, there is an ad by Winfield Arms selling M1 Garands "proof tested & proofed marked in Great Britain" at $ 97.50. In another article in the Oct. 1959 issue of Guns Magizine, there is an article "Arsenal on the Potomac", about Sam Cummings and "Interarmco. It states in this article, " It took four years of negotiations with the Departments of Commerce, Defense and State before a small lot of M1 rifles were released recently for public sale. The rifles spent the 48 month wait snug in blankets of cosmoline at a New York warehouse." My thought is that these were the rifles that were sold by Winfield Arms and that they would have been proofed in 1955 (prior to the four years they spent in the N.Y. warehouse).
But as I said earlier, the article in the GCA Journal indicated 1954 and Scott Duff said it was in 1957 that that Interarmsco purchased the rifles. Scott Duff says that these rifles were imported in 1958 and first sold in Feb. 1959, through Ye Old Hunter, a company owned by Cummings. Scott Duff also states in his article that Winfield Arms was a "competitor of Interarms" and had "also purchased rifles from overseas during the same time period as they advertised them for $ 97.50". Scott did not mention that the rifles sold by Winfield Arms were British Proofed. I wonder if Winfield Arms really purchased these rifles "overseas" ? As Cummings and A.C. Jackson, Vice President of Winfield Arms, had been involved in business transactions as far back as 1948, my guess would be that the rifles being sold by Winfield were obtained from Cummings.
The above is just an assumptions on my part. Seems that everything I have read is either contridictory or vague in regard to the actual date of Sam Cummings first deal for the L.L. rifles. Alot of articles I have read simply state "mid to late 50S", I never really read anything that firmly locks down the date.
You say that you were told by a "Birmingham proof house historian" that they started marking the rifles near the muzzle instead of behind the op-rod, in the 60s, because it was easier. I am surprised that it took Birmingham over 5 years to figure that out.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure you have seen alot more British proofed rifles than I have, it's just I am inclined to agree with the theory put forth by Bob Seijas, that Cummings requested the proofs be marked in the date area so they were not visible on the exterior of the rifle. As Bob further said, "they are hard to mark there and hard to see, I don't think the British would choose that location on there own." But, then again, who knows.