No wonder we are losing the battle....

No matter how hard the regular contributors here and indeed on other forums work to dispel all manor of false information that is getting about on the topic of Lee Enfield rifles, every now and again someone drops a real clanger!

I don't know if this particular person has an axe to grind, or if he is just plain ignorant, ... well, I was gobsmacked.

Please feel free to comment on this posting or add any more comments by "Enfield assassins" for discussion....

The topic? -Why does Headspace Vary?

On a Enfield?

Headspace varies because of a almost total lack of quality control during building.

Only reason.

Good guns but.......

You dont see any other built to a spec rifle need different bolt heads to head space.
Heck even the Russians could stay in spec. Anyone ever found a Mosin nagant out of head space?
I have never seen or even heard of it.

A Enfield?

I have seen 3 that actually had proper head space with out work.





:bash::slap::banghead::yikes::sos::runaway::bitch: :help::thdown::mad:

It would be nice to get some old soldiers on the forum and see which rifle they would have rather had during the service years, I'd hazard a guess at the Lee Enfield 99% of the time. I also expect many other rifles that went out of CHS were DPd or scrapped, at least a well maintained LE could last a hundred years plus.

I'm an old soldier sailor and I strongly prefer the FAL. If I was issued an SKS, I'd say thank you. I engaged in no close combat. Just like efficient rifles. Gary

Everytime I see another concern about headspace and the Lee Enfield, I try to point people towards this excellent explanation of headspace in the Lee Enfield, so that people have an understanding of their concern. It's listed here in Knowledge Library:

Headspace 101 for .303's

I saw that thread, read that response and was quite angry. It also perpetuates some people's ideas that these rifles are old, useless, junk. As for making the comparison to the Mosin Nagant.... I will just say this... I have never once had an Enfield with a bolt that was hard to open after firing but I have had several Mosin Nagants and Mausers that took a rubber mallet to open the bolt due to fouling after firing a few rounds. The looser tolerances on an Enfield are there for a reason.

Didn't even need a link...just read Son's post and knew exactly where to look.

Some things never change.

Huh? Seems like a well versed individual would understand. I'm just glad I am able to change headspace with a new bolthead and not have to spend a wallet full of money to have the barrel set back.

It's all right guys, another poster has come along and said this.... (BTW, the sticky he referenced tells all about how the Lee Enfield chambers are all machined out of round- :madsmile:)



The fallacy of just changing the bolt head is just that, a Fairy Tale. While sometimes it may work, most of the time it wont.* The reason being is each armorer had their idea just what is to be set on their rifles under their control. I have a manual written in 1924 for the Armorers serving for Great Britten. These men had to be experts on just about every fire arm you could think of. Experts, not handy men.
In the margin of this manual ,written in pencil, as if it was verbatim as the instructor recited it, is " The head spacing on the Enfield rifle shall be such that the soldier may store a dry pair of socks!"
Many,many of the bolt bodies have been shortened.(You think of the Armorer have boxes of spare bolt heads just lying around. In real life they must not have had them. Or were out of the ones needed. )
Grab your calipers and measure what you have. If you have more than one rifle, you will see what I mean. Bolt bodies vary in length from rifle to rifle.
Many of the members here from a few years ago jumped onto the band wagon when the rifles came into the USA by the thousands. Members were having cases fail at the web more often than not.
I started to do inspections on the rifles in my collection and in gun stores. I found excessive head spacing on about 98% of the rifles checked.(read sticky) Measurements were from "normal" to way out of spects.
Britt military brass can and will stand this "slop". Our brass will not. Many cases will look as the photos show, or will have insipid case head separation on the first reloading.
I have one NoIV MkI barreled receiver that is so bad, it cannot be made safe to shoot. The head spacing was so "loose" that the bolt pounded the locking lugs until the excessive head spacing is more than 17 thousands of an inch.
The rest of my rifles have had the bolt bodies replaced to like new length, and with a "0" or number "1" bolt head. While the head spacing is now back to safe specifications, the shape of the chamber, shoulder position, roundness of the chamber, centering of the bore to the center of the chamber and condition of the chambers throat due to the corrosive effects of thousands of Cordite rounds fired are still major factors.
The size of the bore can cause pressure indicators of the fired primers that will mislead you to the wrong conclusions. Many of the old rifles will have bores larger than .314. Only an over-sized cast lead bullet would obdurate properly.
There is a very good chance you can safely shoot your rifle/s. Read the sticky, try the "repairs" listed. You may be pleasantly surprised how well you can get your rifle to shoot.
* many of the bolt heads have been filed or machined down from what they are stamped or the Number assigned to them. If your trying to head space the SMLE, the bolt head has to be "miked" as to its real size.
Do the masking tape test. Its easy, is accurate, and will save you time and money in the long run.


Attachment 18422 Attachment 18422 Attachment 18422




Just a quick comment about one glaringly obvious point... Where this person says "many many of the bolt bodies have been shortened..." lets just think about this... If you shorten the bolt body, the bolt head will no longer come against the shoulder of the bolt body at the point of bolt closing (the spec is maximum of 15deg overturn to contact the face of the bolt body IIRC)- It will, however still be in exactly the same place with regards to length (it is held here by the thread) until you fire it a few times with the threads being the only thing transfering the chamber pressure (recoil) onto the bolt body to the locking lugs. I haven't tried it, but I'd imagine the headspace would go out of spec quite quickly, stuffing the threads!

PLEASE If anyone hears or sees or reads or gets told something that doesn't quite seem right- come here and ask. It's been said before... "The only stupid question is one that you don't ask"

"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!"

I tried, O' I tried.
Others have jumped in now.

"..or will have insipid case head separation on the first reloading."

These illiterate wonks write as badly as they think.
-----krinko

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I tried, O' I tried.
Others have jumped in now.

That fast moving guy has a lot to answer for.

---

You fought well against blindly defended "high ground"... I'd have lost it by then- congrats on your tactful fighting withdrawal, Alan :cheers:

Meanwhile, in related Enfield news........:move eek:

"I have been gather beat and DP No, 1 actions for these."

link here . . . . Interest in .45 DeLisle replicas? - Enfield-Rifles.com

It would seem that all the information in the world regarding DP rifles is still not enough.

Or you could try the masking tape test!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murray

Or you could try the masking tape test!

---

I thought it was duct tape...:lol:

One thing I hate is when people compare rifles like recently imported used and abused Enfields to the fresh from storage after refurb Mosin Nagants and such. Of course the refurbed rifles headspace within spec.... THEY ARE REFURBISHED... and fresh from 50 years of storage!!! Many of the Enfields we see have had a long Commonwealth service life followed up by who knows what kind of service life to being in our hands. Ever wonder when the last time our Enfields have seen an armourer or how many rounds they have fired since their last trip to an armourer? Kind of puts things in perspective.

There really is no point in answering the idiot.

He thinks he is right based on his own incorrect and twisted view of the the Lee-Enfield architecture. His level of real knowledge is exhibited by his not making a distinction between the SMLE and No4/5 head spacing techniques.

The only fix for this guy is for him to to take Lee-Enfield 101 but he won't because he thinks that already know it all.

I think my soul vomited when I read that thread. I tried to be gentle, but there's no point.

Cheers,
Matt

The problem is that if we dont try there will be a next generation of followers who think that its the 'done thing' to headspace with razor blades and masking tape, and to bed with coke cans & credit cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

The problem is that if we dont try there will be a next generation of followers who think that its the 'done thing' to headspace with razor blades and masking tape, and to bed with coke cans & credit cards.

---

I just registered over there and added my 2c worth (probably more like about 40 or 50 cents) but we need to help the ones who don't know so much that they cannot learn any more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cruisey

Meanwhile, in related Enfield news........:move eek:

"I have been gather beat and DP No, 1 actions for these."

link here . . . . Interest in .45 DeLisle replicas? - Enfield-Rifles.com

It would seem that all the information in the world regarding DP rifles is still not enough.

---

I knew he was working on the DeLisle replica, but I didn't know he was using DP'ed actions. If I had known, then perhaps I would not have given him such a positive review....

As an experiment I went to the source of all knowledge - Google, and typed in "303 headspace".

After 6 pages of references I couldn't find one to the forum in question.

There were however several references to sites with more knowledgable contributors, i.e. milsurps.com, amongst a couple of others.

IMHO the only thing you will achieve by jumping in on this sort of thing is increasing traffic to the site in question, which will in turn guide the ill informed googler to the only slightly more informed keyboard expert.

I posted this link over on GB and I reckon it pretty well sums up the situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ziavo...layer_embedded

It's obvious he's been using the WRONG headspace gauge. Typical here in the USA.

Hi All,

I've read this thread and the other thread in it's entirety. I cannot offer anything to the technical base that is here but I CAN add to the discussion based on me being a NEW enfield 'collector' shooter.

I have searched the 'net' for anything I can find enfield.... Most of it when taken as a whole compared to what is encompassed here appears to be trash and opinion. I believe there is a saying/idiom you must; 'seperate the wheat from the chaffe.'.

I think that applies to most things related to firearms and the net as a whole. I for one would run as fast as I can if I ever saw a gunsmith measuring something with tape....dunno maybe it's me.

My trade requires me to do hard testing and measurements of devices we install, these measurements are based on factory guidelines and independent testing agencies etc to truly say what is spec and what is not for the material we install at commercial properties etc.

That is done with calibrated tools, calculators and such............I have seen it done in other non-standard ways that, well for one are shoddy and totally inaccurate. So seeing this on a professional level I am not shocked what I saw 'over there'

Given the above, please allow me to say that THIS forum has been invaluable to me in utilizing as much of collective knowledge here to apply to my new found love. ENFIELDS..... It is DIRECT, CONCISE and based on hard specifications...! What more can you ask?

No OPINION, NO HYPERBOLE, no talking out of the proverbial derrier !

So if you find you cannot educate, or, attempt to direct others to educate themselves, based on hard data (ie don't believe what I say, go read it for yourself and draw your own conclusion), don't give yourself so much grief......' you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink ' hold true in this situation......

Happy new year to all, I'm heading to the range with my Lithgow no4 and a 56 Faz no 4...time to punch paper..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spinecracker

I knew he was working on the DeLisle replica, but I didn't know he was using DP'ed actions.

---

But that's OK according to him because he "test fires" every one. He displays all the attributes of a moron.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beerhunter

But that's OK according to him because he "test fires" every one. He displays all the attributes of a moron.

---

It seems the link I originally posted has caused a bit of a stir over there, but right or wrong, the more people that see it, the better IMO.

Quote from a reply on that forum:

"I wonder what kind of handloads it can handle. 30,000 PSI in 45 caliber could be pretty potent.":move eek:

Get out your CIP/SAAMI data and check that out for plausibility!:eek:

You guys will have your own opinions, but if that is the attitude of people on that forum, I wish to have nothing to do with them. If someone wants to make up a fake gun using condemned parts and then use a load that generates a pressure way above the proof pressure for that type of cartridge, then I am happy to live in a country where such an unproofed monstrosity would be illegal.

Other people's freedom to do as they wish with their property stops when they thereby endanger not only themselves. but anyone else who is unlucky enough to be in the vicinity when that pipe-bomb goes bang.

:wave:

Notice:

This thread has some important content that discusses the danger of internet information and advice. Clearly, you can't believe everything you read on every site. However, milsurps.com does not promote the criticism of other web sites nor the individual posters on them. I have edited several posts on this thread to remove content that directly identifies the web site and individuals while leaving the discussion intact. Please don't take offense to the editing as it is not intended to single any individual out.

Amatikulu

Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

I've just been directed to another one. A complete discussion thread were the out of round chamber destroys everyone's Winchester brass. The old Lee Enfields couldn't even pass a SAAMI test gauge when they were new.
This time the offending rifle (No4) actually suffered a case split longitudinally which blew the bolt head to pieces- but nobody on the firing line got a scratch.... There was no obstruction in the barrel, no damage to the bolt body. The firer screwed a new bolthead on and went back to using the rifle.

Well- This sounds awfully like the same story that got around a while back. In the end there was a pic of a failed case provided- claiming to be the one that destroyed (vapourised????) the bolthead. There isn't any pics with the 2011 version, but I did save the pic last time. As soon as I find it I'll add it here and talk about what was worked out and finally admitted to be the truth befind the story....

I'll get back to you shortly....

How to manufacture an "out of round" chamber??? A two flute "reamer" may produce a tri-lobal hole, A single point tool can possibly produce an elliptical hole. (Basically, the number of lobes is equal to the number of cutting edges plus one.) The typical reamer hes anywhere from 6 to 8 cutting edges, so making a measurably out of round chamber is HUGELY unlikely! The same for "banana shaped" chambers- reamers don't bend- they either break or make an enlarged entry zone...

Crazy stuff!

The principles no doubt remain the same but maybe the machinery has moved forward.

Taken from "Machining The Lee-Enfield Barrel (May 25th 1916) - "Screwing & Chambering"

Sorry - you might have to turn your monitor onto its side !!!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mbers001-1.jpg

That's a good point to ponder JM............. Just HOW do you get an out of round chamber. Never thought of it before. A case of sometimes you don't see the obvious - or the wood for the trees! But you do see eccentric bores and I showed a photo of a sectioned Bren barrel on here some time ago that was noticeably eccentric.

Good point JM

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...94414926-1.jpg

This Remington .303 case has the typical one-sided bulge and misaligned case of the SAAMI spec case/Enfield spec chamber miscegenation. (Hope it shows up in the photo.)
Studies of the Homomoronus Northamericanii show that this kind of strong visual cue will short out synaptic receptors and render the subject incapable of even the simplest mental activity---such as sit-com viewing.
At the same time typing skills fall as opinionation rises, leading to a state of mind best explained by a Geologist.
Education, at this point, is impossible.
-----krinko

PS. This lopsided beauty was actually fired in a Martini Enfield, which proves it isn't the extractor pushing the case to one side that makes the one sided bulge.
-----k.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krinko

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL165.../394414926.jpg

This Remington .303 case has the typical one-sided bulge and misaligned case of the SAAMI spec case/Enfield spec chamber miscegenation. (Hope it shows up in the photo.)
Studies of the Homomoronus Northamericanii show that this kind of strong visual cue will short out synaptic receptors and render the subject incapable of even the simplest mental activity---such as sit-com viewing.
At the same time typing skills fall as opinionation rises, leading to a state of mind best explained by a Geologist.
Education, at this point, is impossible.
-----krinko

PS. This lopsided beauty was actually fired in a Martini Enfield, which proves it isn't the extractor pushing the case to one side that makes the one sided bulge.
-----k.

---

Mmmm, Large diameter chamber, non uniform case wall thickness, and in this case, possible breech block misalignment or off square breech face...Mean old mister gravity will keep a cartridge off center in a large chamber as well as extractor pressure!

Sorry, but I thought everyone knew about the spec differences, like these---

Royal Laboratories, 1944 Typical
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...94415389-1.jpg

Remington-Peters Typical
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...94415388-1.jpg

Winchester-Western Typical
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...94415387-1.jpg

There is nothing wrong with my M-E, which is a very nice 1899 conversion, formerly the property of the ACG and very well maintained----Norma, PPU, PMP and HXP do not deform in this rifle.
For further fun with calipers, try US made 7x57 against European 7x57.
-----krinko

PS. The caliper measures .455" when run at the bulge in the fired Remington case, so the poor brass ie trying to conform to Brit standard. I don't feel like starting the camera again so no photo.
-----k.

Thanks for the reminder! I was just putting down the first things that popped into the tiny brainpan, and in a hurry! I got used to Mr Horton handling the ammo stuff...in his own gentle way.

I think the o-ring trick solves most of these problems, but refresher courses seem to be required all too often.

This explains my funny looking cases. I even cut one up to see if it was about to separate but internally looked okay. S&B cases loaded about 5 times... given everyone else's experience I don't expect much more from them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

I got used to Mr Horton handling the ammo stuff...in his own gentle way.

---

Is Ed still with us ???


Danny

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danhar1960

Is Ed still with us ???


Danny

---

No, but he is happy and well pursuing similar interests at the range.

Brad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danhar1960

Is Ed still with us ???
Danny

---

Yes, he's here every day viewing and enjoying the excellent forum content posted by so many of you, except he no longer has to endure the resultant stresses from posting ....

I do miss his more productive posts, but, I think it has worked out well for Ed and the moderation staff here, as compared to the alternatives employed by the ownership of many other sites. :thup:

Regards,
Doug

I MISS ED!!!! Can he not come in from the cold now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shottist

I MISS ED!!!! Can he not come in from the cold now?

---

I miss his input as well, however, his intense manner created many dramas for the host. Stickies or "digests" of some of his better material would add considerable value, esp. in discussions relating to Enfield chamberings and ammo. Save plenty of rehash by just being able to link to the pertinent material...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shottist

I MISS ED!!!! Can he not come in from the cold now?

---

Oh dear, Eddy boy been up to his old stunts again ?? What a shame, when he stuck to the subject (and didn't try to be a comedian) the guy new his cookies.

Danny

Yes, he certainly did. |In fact I still use his schematics and diagrammes in some lessons. He really had/has a way with simple explanations. He reminded me of my best physics teacher, Mr Percy, who could make his lessons take over the whole class - and more. But he could rub some people up the wrong way...... Ed that is, not Mr Percy. Give him my regards when you next speak JM

I also miss Eds input and humour being a wild colonial some people need to lighten up and laugh at themselves more it makes the world a better place. Cheers ED:cheers:

I'm writing this correction replacing the original post. I thought the picture was associated to the earlier posting about destroying a bolthead but I have been shown to be mistaken- my apologies to all.
I received a message from Mr Horton correcting me about the picture I posted. (Thankyou, Ed :cheers:)

The correct story about this pic

Attachment 18719


This case was a hang fire that was just starting to be ejected and then it
went off. The width of the case rupture is how far the bolt was open at
the time the case fired. The front of the case collapsed inward due to
all the pressure being vented at the rear of the case.

This photo was originally posted by someone who stated the inherently
weak Enfield receiver stretched and flexed during firing????? What a
brilliant statement, 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of receiver stretching and
flexing.

So, it was another urban myth altogether!

It would make a good safety example vis. hangfires and patience. Too bad it was used for a different agenda. I can see how that would put "un-natural" loads on a bolt head (and the shooter's hand!) as the bolt assembly slammed rearward.

That thread on the "other forum" is very disheartening.

I sense an attitude similar to the "if its not boeing, its not going" garbage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Give him my regards when you next speak JM

---

I'm not the "good guy" here! Sorry to say I haven't interacted w/ Mr. Horton in quite some time. Credit goes to Son, Badger, et al.

Ed couldn't ignore the intentional idiots and let them go away.:(

I miss him too.:o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

It would make a good safety example vis. hangfires and patience. Too bad it was used for a different agenda. I can see how that would put "un-natural" loads on a bolt head (and the shooter's hand!) as the bolt assembly slammed rearward.

---

Yes, I was wondering how much the firer suffered too, but it may have been minimal as there would be no resistance to the escaping gasses with the side blown out of the case and the amount of blowby around the outside. It might have made an impressive flash, possible burns to the hand and face.... speculation, I know- any opinions?

I was looking through a folder on my computer and came across these three photos of a DP P14 that was fired with a 303 round. IIRC, this was done as an experiment by a shooter who remote fired the rifle. The bullet was recovered from where it had just entered the rifling.

Attachment 18727Attachment 18728Attachment 18729

Added in case it helped the discussion :)

It's certainly helped me with an ongoing discussion at work Amitikulu! Without photos such as this, it's extremely difficult to work out mathematically then amply illustrate to a not-as-technical-as-he-thinks-he-is idiot what will happen in relation to compressed gas, heat and shear strengths.

The distance the bullet travelled was interesting too at the CofR. This is where the friction starts to bite - literally- and once it does, like all things(?) mechanical, nature takes over, things revert to nature and take the line of least resistance

I'll be ramming the photos down someones throat first thing on Tuesday morning! Thanks Amat, fantastic..................!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lithy

Ed couldn't ignore the intentional idiots and let them go away.:(

I miss him too.:o

---

Nicely put...I have to agree (although his inter-service envy can be tough to deal with at times ;)).

That is hilarious. Reminds me of an Abbot and Costello skit. I went on and watched the one about the SFC becausse, well, I WAS an SFC for many years. Again, I can relate:). EDIT: I see this posted away from the link I was referring to on page 3. About the little animated figures on you tube doing the monotone exchange ref. reloading on the cheap. Sarge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badger

Yes, he's here every day viewing and enjoying the excellent forum content posted by so many of you, except he no longer has to endure the resultant stresses from posting ....

I do miss his more productive posts, but, I think it has worked out well for Ed and the moderation staff here, as compared to the alternatives employed by the ownership of many other sites. :thup:

Regards,
Doug

---

I have had the opportunity to communicate with him privately and he has nothing but nice things to say OMIT THIS about the site and OMIT THIS SOME OF the folks here.

He actually does not live that far from me considering the expanse of the forum....I gotta free up some time to buy him a cup of coffee.

He has given me some help that has been invaluable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

How to manufacture an "out of round" chamber??? A two flute "reamer" may produce a tri-lobal hole, A single point tool can possibly produce an elliptical hole. (Basically, the number of lobes is equal to the number of cutting edges plus one.) The typical reamer hes anywhere from 6 to 8 cutting edges, so making a measurably out of round chamber is HUGELY unlikely! The same for "banana shaped" chambers- reamers don't bend- they either break or make an enlarged entry zone...

Crazy stuff!

---

How do these eggspurts know their chambers are "out of round"? They look at their fired cases and they see uneven expansion at the base. :rolleyes:

They haven't figured out that cartridges do not self-center in chambers that are slightly oversize - and oversize for a reason: to allow the rifle to operate with war-time quality ammo and dirty, often wet ammo at that.

I blame it all on the invention of headspace gauges and SAAMI.:lol:
The only ex-service rifle I have had in my hands that was so seriously out on headspace that you could consider it to be hazardous, was just before Christmas. It was, of course, an...

(guess which one, I'll tell you all tomorrow!)
:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I blame it all on the invention of headspace gauges and SAAMI.:lol:
The only ex-service rifle I have had in my hands that was so seriously out on headspace that you could consider it to be hazardous, was just before Christmas. It was, of course, an...

(guess which one, I'll tell you all tomorrow!)
:wave:

---

You can't just make a statement like that and leave us hanging!!!!!!!

To say there is something wrong with a surplusrifle is one thing, but to imply it has a REAL headspace problem.....? :yikes::yikes::yikes:


Just adding another clanger to the quotes dept.

"Only experts should even attempt to resurrect a DP rifle depending on it's condition. We have numerous threads on the subject."

OK, Son, I'll give you a clue:

The case was stretched about 1.3 mm compared with the reference.

:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surpmil

to allow the rifle to operate with war-time quality ammo and dirty, often wet ammo at that.

---

I always imagined that a service rifle should function even when the GI/tommy/poilu or whoever got nervous, dropped his ammo in the muck, picked it up, wiped it on his trousers, stuck it in the magazine, and fired. SMLEs coped with that in the trenches, Ross rifles did not, and had a short career. But SMLEs lasted so long that they ended up as Ishy 2A1s (tried one out yesterday).

Someone should explain to the headspace gauge freaks that no-one ever fought a battle with headspace gauges.
Sorry, I must correct myself- it's been tried, and it's a hopeless task (sigh!).

:wave:[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------


Well I am disappointed. Not a single guess so far!

Try turning 1.3mm into inches

:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Try turning 1.3mm into inches

---

0.051181

Now round it off and think about it;)

:wave:

<p>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Now round it off and think about it<img src="https://www.milsurps.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="4" class="inlineimg" /></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><img src="images/smilies/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wave" smilieid="25" class="inlineimg" />

---

</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

0.050"?, 0.051" That's about 20tpi...Phooey!

Well done jmoore - you are on the right lines,!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

The only ex-service rifle I have had in my hands that was so seriously out on headspace that you could consider it to be hazardous, was just before Christmas. It was, of course, an...

---

... example of a Springfield 1903A3:move eek:

I never had the chance to closely examine the rifle, which has now been disposed of, so I shall never know the truth, but I was able to measure the fired cases. Either Bubba charged in with the reamer without looking where he was going, or (my theory) he completely FUBARed cutting the extractor groove or fitting the barrel, and ended up with it 1/2 turn out of register - hence the 1/20" as half of a 10 tpi turn.

From memory, the Bubba clues were: the number indicated a 1903A1 Springfield system, but fitted ("fudged"?) with a 2-groove barrel - surely WWII - and a totally unnumbered/unmarked "C" stock with no arsenal rebuild stamp. Add to this the fact that the backsight assembly was loose on the receiver, and it all looked like a D-I-Y A3. If the owner had simply applied my threaded rod method (see the Argentine Rolling Block thread) before purchase, he could have saved the ammo, and his money.

It was another case of: at that price it was to good to be true, and so indeed it was.

The really surprising result was: 20 cases had been stretched by 1/20 inch - and NONE of them had separated, although 18 of 20 showed the ominous bright line of incipient separation. 2 cases did not even show the bright line. On reloading (neck sizing only), one case survived intact and the second separated. End of experiment.

Now: a general question for all the excessive headspace worriers.
If 20/20 cases did NOT separate when stretched 50 thou, why all the neurotic fuss about rifles that have a few thou excess headspace? Who fires gauges anyway?

Someone will surely shoot me down for writing this, but it seems to me that the principal cause of head separation in cartridge cases is full-length resizing of cases fired in military chambers that were never built to SAAMI or CIP standards. I have not yet had a case separation in any of my service rifles, which get an exclusive diet of new or neck-sized cases. The rifles themselves are not bothered by head clearances up to levels that the gauge neurotics would consider downright dangerous.

Don't bin the rifles - bin the cases!

BTW, the rifle shot very accurately in practice! An old development engineer's quip goes:
Theory is when it should work, but doesn't.
Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how.

Patrick:wave:

Well, I was excused from that quiz. You could record my knowledge of Springfields in size 14 bold type on the edge of a postage stamp. :surrender:

Great info, Patrick. Good to see some headspace worries put to bed on rimless ammo/ chambers too. :cheers:
Got any more?

I like the quote...
"Theory is when it should work, but doesn't.
Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how."


The first thing to remember with milsurp rifles when talking about headspace, chamber clearances or head gap, is the grunts didn't pick up and reload cases. If it didn't destroy a case so it wouldn't extract, it was fine to use until an armourer told you it wasn't.

Just a reminder, this thread is open to input on any calibre or make of milsurps- not only the L.E. The topic (loosely) is the bad info that's out there for the unsuspecting browser... stuff you've seen done that might ring the alarm bells

I never did finish my "maximum safe radial expansion" series of experiments on that old thread, but the next set of rounds are loaded, including some of the previously abused cases. (Nor the 300WM experiment!-but it could be brought back to life yet- horrors!) Just a warning!!!

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Originally Posted by Bear43

I saw that thread, read that response and was quite angry. It also perpetuates some people's ideas that these rifles are old, useless, junk. As for making the comparison to the Mosin Nagant.... I will just say this... I have never once had an Enfield with a bolt that was hard to open after firing but I have had several Mosin Nagants and Mausers that took a rubber mallet to open the bolt due to fouling after firing a few rounds. The looser tolerances on an Enfield are there for a reason.

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Ive never owned an Enfield, but I do own a Mosin. I will say(from experience) that if you dont get all of the cosmoline off the bolt, or if your bolt is "dirty" (ie- NOT polished at the metal to metal contact points of the sear pin to bolt) it will (especially with cosmoline residue) stick almost every time you fire a round. But, as soon as you get all the cosmoline off the bolt and bolt contact points or, if that fails, you polish the bolt, you will never again have a sticky bolt. If you do, i suggest you look into cleaning the bolt(and bolt to receiver contact points) with brake parts cleaner (a little harsh, but will work just fine if you properly oil afterwards and dont let it sit for long) and polish the bolt till it shines. Just be careful not to remove too much material, or only polish those areas that contact the sear pin. Also, the polishing serves a dual purpose, it makes that notoriously horrible trigger pull absolutely perfect and smooth.
As far as the original entry. It infuriates me that people can be so naive as to think that the Enfield was not made to particularly high specs, or at least consistent specs. They are great firearms. I have met a few and fell in love with most all of them.

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Originally Posted by Son

Got any more? I like the quote... "Theory is when it should work, but doesn't. Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how."

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"If cursing and hitting it with a hammer doesn't work, you can always - as a last resort - try reading the instructions."

:wave: