No wonder we are losing the battle....

[Patrick Chadwick]

to allow the rifle to operate with war-time quality ammo and dirty, often wet ammo at that.

I always imagined that a service rifle should function even when the GI/tommy/poilu or whoever got nervous, dropped his ammo in the muck, picked it up, wiped it on his trousers, stuck it in the magazine, and fired. SMLEs coped with that in the trenches, Ross rifles did not, and had a short career. But SMLEs lasted so long that they ended up as Ishy 2A1s (tried one out yesterday).

Someone should explain to the headspace gauge freaks that no-one ever fought a battle with headspace gauges.
Sorry, I must correct myself- it's been tried, and it's a hopeless task (sigh!).

[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------


Well I am disappointed. Not a single guess so far!

Try turning 1.3mm into inches

[5thBatt]

Try turning 1.3mm into inches

0.051181

[Patrick Chadwick]

Now round it off and think about it

[jmoore]

<p>

Now round it off and think about it<img src="https://www.milsurps.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="4" class="inlineimg" /></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><img src="images/smilies/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wave" smilieid="25" class="inlineimg" />

</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

0.050"?, 0.051" That's about 20tpi...Phooey!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Well done jmoore - you are on the right lines,!

The only ex-service rifle I have had in my hands that was so seriously out on headspace that you could consider it to be hazardous, was just before Christmas. It was, of course, an...

... example of a Springfield 1903A3

I never had the chance to closely examine the rifle, which has now been disposed of, so I shall never know the truth, but I was able to measure the fired cases. Either Bubba charged in with the reamer without looking where he was going, or (my theory) he completely FUBARed cutting the extractor groove or fitting the barrel, and ended up with it 1/2 turn out of register - hence the 1/20" as half of a 10 tpi turn.

From memory, the Bubba clues were: the number indicated a 1903A1 Springfield system, but fitted ("fudged"?) with a 2-groove barrel - surely WWII - and a totally unnumbered/unmarked "C" stock with no arsenal rebuild stamp. Add to this the fact that the backsight assembly was loose on the receiver, and it all looked like a D-I-Y A3. If the owner had simply applied my threaded rod method (see the Argentine Rolling Block thread) before purchase, he could have saved the ammo, and his money.

It was another case of: at that price it was to good to be true, and so indeed it was.

The really surprising result was: 20 cases had been stretched by 1/20 inch - and NONE of them had separated, although 18 of 20 showed the ominous bright line of incipient separation. 2 cases did not even show the bright line. On reloading (neck sizing only), one case survived intact and the second separated. End of experiment.

Now: a general question for all the excessive headspace worriers.
If 20/20 cases did NOT separate when stretched 50 thou, why all the neurotic fuss about rifles that have a few thou excess headspace? Who fires gauges anyway?

Someone will surely shoot me down for writing this, but it seems to me that the principal cause of head separation in cartridge cases is full-length resizing of cases fired in military chambers that were never built to SAAMI or CIP standards. I have not yet had a case separation in any of my service rifles, which get an exclusive diet of new or neck-sized cases. The rifles themselves are not bothered by head clearances up to levels that the gauge neurotics would consider downright dangerous.

Don't bin the rifles - bin the cases!

BTW, the rifle shot very accurately in practice! An old development engineer's quip goes:
Theory is when it should work, but doesn't.
Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how.

Patrick

[Son]

Well, I was excused from that quiz. You could record my knowledge of Springfields in size 14 bold type on the edge of a postage stamp.

Great info, Patrick. Good to see some headspace worries put to bed on rimless ammo/ chambers too.
Got any more?

I like the quote...
"Theory is when it should work, but doesn't.
Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how."


The first thing to remember with milsurp rifles when talking about headspace, chamber clearances or head gap, is the grunts didn't pick up and reload cases. If it didn't destroy a case so it wouldn't extract, it was fine to use until an armourer told you it wasn't.

Just a reminder, this thread is open to input on any calibre or make of milsurps- not only the L.E. The topic (loosely) is the bad info that's out there for the unsuspecting browser... stuff you've seen done that might ring the alarm bells

[jmoore]

I never did finish my "maximum safe radial expansion" series of experiments on that old thread, but the next set of rounds are loaded, including some of the previously abused cases. (Nor the 300WM experiment!-but it could be brought back to life yet- horrors!) Just a warning!!!

[mbost]

I saw that thread, read that response and was quite angry. It also perpetuates some people's ideas that these rifles are old, useless, junk. As for making the comparison to the Mosin Nagant.... I will just say this... I have never once had an Enfield with a bolt that was hard to open after firing but I have had several Mosin Nagants and Mausers that took a rubber mallet to open the bolt due to fouling after firing a few rounds. The looser tolerances on an Enfield are there for a reason.

Ive never owned an Enfield, but I do own a Mosin. I will say(from experience) that if you dont get all of the cosmoline off the bolt, or if your bolt is "dirty" (ie- NOT polished at the metal to metal contact points of the sear pin to bolt) it will (especially with cosmoline residue) stick almost every time you fire a round. But, as soon as you get all the cosmoline off the bolt and bolt contact points or, if that fails, you polish the bolt, you will never again have a sticky bolt. If you do, i suggest you look into cleaning the bolt(and bolt to receiver contact points) with brake parts cleaner (a little harsh, but will work just fine if you properly oil afterwards and dont let it sit for long) and polish the bolt till it shines. Just be careful not to remove too much material, or only polish those areas that contact the sear pin. Also, the polishing serves a dual purpose, it makes that notoriously horrible trigger pull absolutely perfect and smooth.
As far as the original entry. It infuriates me that people can be so naive as to think that the Enfield was not made to particularly high specs, or at least consistent specs. They are great firearms. I have met a few and fell in love with most all of them.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Got any more? I like the quote... "Theory is when it should work, but doesn't. Practice is when it works, but nobody knows how."

"If cursing and hitting it with a hammer doesn't work, you can always - as a last resort - try reading the instructions."