Why there aren't Japanese rifles among "favorite WWII rifles"?

Hello!
Just asked my question in another Forum (someone knows it) and people gave some interesting answers. Anyway I wanna know a little bit more about it and I’m here to repeat my question: why asking about favorite WWII rifle(s) almost nobody answers me any Japanese rifle?
Aren't accurate fireguns? I don’t belive it. Or is it only because -today- ammo for Japanese fireguns are expensive and no so many people fire any (i.e.) Arisaka ? Why many people answer Mauser K98 or Mosins or Enfields or Garand and (almost) never Arisaka?
All the opinions are welcome, as always. Thanks.

No romance to them just as the Italian and French. Armies defeated without military mystic. Who wants to use a "losers" rifle. gary

It may have something to do with the fact that there aren't as many of them out there in shooters' hands. How can you like something you don't know? Also, many of them that I've seen have either been in terrible shape or sporterized.

In addition, as you mentioned, ammo isn't very easy to come by.

Just a couple of thoughts. ;)

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Originally Posted by arado

No romance to them just as the Italian and French. Armies defeated without military mystic. Who wants to use a "losers" rifle. gary

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Hi gary,
at first many thanks for your answer. Me want shoot a "losers" rifle, my buddy more than me. He is collecting 1 rifle per Army: he has 1 Mosin , 1 Enfield , 1 Mauser , since last October he is waiting for 1 Garand and now he is interested in a Carcano Mod.91 and in an Arisaka - about the first one there are some troubles with ammo, but asking in the Forums he received enough infos, about the Japanese fireguns... we are looking to know more.
I belive is always interesting collect a gun which have a history in its background and have the opportunity to shoot it. If it coulda be called romance... well! it is so!
Again many thanks for your post :cheers:

attilio

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Originally Posted by whkento

It may have something to do with the fact that there aren't as many of them out there in shooters' hands. How can you like something you don't know? Also, many of them that I've seen have either been in terrible shape or sporterized.

In addition, as you mentioned, ammo isn't very easy to come by.

Just a couple of thoughts. ;)

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Good points of view! Both coulda be the right answer, especially the first one.
Many thanks to you too for the answer :cheers:

attilio

I think after the war they were the most common surplus rifle. We had no love for the japanese and we even threw the American japanese in prison. Now after 6.5 decades many rifles were used up and bubba-a-rized. The ww2 vets are dying off and son,s ,grandson,s are starting to collect them with renewed interest. But the hate and shunned japanese stuff is just starting to go up in value and interest. Its a story we must not forget. A 1940 Life magazine story said,"The typical Jap betrays his aboriginal antecedents in a squat,long-torosed build, a broader more massivey boned head and face,flat,often pugged nose,yellow-ocher skin ,and a heavier beard." They thought these little brown -yellow men were no match for us and were not like the Germans who made good weapons and could fight. The common thought back then was the Japanese could not see at night and made junky copies of our weapons. The suprise came in Dec. -7 when they brought there fleet in and sank most of the battle wagons and yes there torpedoes worked and ours were not reliable!

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Originally Posted by jeep

I think after the war they were the most common surplus rifle. We had no love for the japanese and we even threw the American japanese in prison. Now after 6.5 decades many rifles were used up and bubba-a-rized. The ww2 vets are dying off and son,s ,grandson,s are starting to collect them with renewed interest. !

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Interesting. I was unaware that they were so common. I WAS told that they were quite often sporterized due to their reputation as a very solidly built rifle. I have a Type 38 which was sporterized very nicely (if I may use that phrase here), in addition to unaltered Type 38s and a Type 99. My interest in the Japanese weapons is an offshoot from my father's collection of WW2 rifles, coupled with the fact that I live in Japan.

I like the Type 99's light weight, good cartridge, and good utilitarian design, BUT there's several things that keep it from being the "favorite".

1) no provision for a "close in" (i.e. 100-200m) sight setting.
2) No easy scope adjustments on the sniper varients. Zeroing is a gigantic pain!
3) not visually attractive, esp. the trigger guard
4) ammo
5) not a huge issue, but the safety is harder than some to work quietly and unobtrusively when hunting.

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Oh, as someone from a "loser's country" I don't think it has much to do with anything! We'uns just lost a little further back in time...Besides, I don't recall Italy or France losing WWI, or Japan losing a war from 1905 until 1945, quite the opposite, in fact!

I have Hunted with, and taken many deer with a 2nd series Kokura. They are great shooters. The Hornady ammo is second to none, and I can reload easily with the same .311 projectiles that I reload My .303 with. The Arisaka has gotten a bum rap in the past. If You look up Col. Whelen's WW2 rifle test, that he did in the 1950's, You will see that the Arisaka had an even stronger action that the 98K. Even though the barrel blew off the Type 99, the receiver was still good to go...So to all the nay sayers out there, don't judge a book by its cover. It may just be a good read....JMHO

I like the T-99 mid-war substandard types 6-7 series nogoya without monopods and AA sites. They just look cleaner with nice racy lines. The M38 is very smooth and well made compared to the war time 99. A lot of Japanese collecters are called cheap and tight wads,because they still want $25-$100 rifles of a decade or two ago. Well those days are over and we all wish we could buy M-1 carbines for $150 and 303 enfields for $75-100. Those days are over and will never be back. Rifles made 65 to 80 years ago are no longer made and drying up in nice shape. Buckle up butter cup and good luck hunting for that super buy.

I never found anything appealing about French, Italian or Japanese firearms. Plain and simple.

My father, uncle and father in law all served in the WWII US Navy, Pacific Fleet. The J@@@ didn't fight in an honorable fashion, starting with the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor, followed on by the Bataan Death March, torpedoing of hospital ships, and the countless atrocities in the Philippines and mainland China. They fought with no quarter, and we learned to give none. As these raw memories fade with the passing of that generation, I suppose new collector interest will rise. I, for one, won't have any of it in my house.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Oh, as someone from a "loser's country" I don't think it has much to do with anything! We'uns just lost a little further back in time...Besides, I don't recall Italy or France losing WWI, or Japan losing a war from 1905 until 1945, quite the opposite, in fact!

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I agree with your words, jmoore

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Originally Posted by limpetmine

My father, uncle and father in law all served in the WWII US Navy, Pacific Fleet. The J@@@ didn't fight in an honorable fashion, starting with the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor, followed on by the Bataan Death March, torpedoing of hospital ships, and the countless atrocities in the Philippines and mainland China. They fought with no quarter, and we learned to give none. As these raw memories fade with the passing of that generation, I suppose new collector interest will rise. I, for one, won't have any of it in my house.

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That also coulda be a reason 'cause people "don't like" Japanese rifles. Anyway I belive we mustn't follow this thought line. Who in Europe would collect (have at home) any Mauser K98...? We must collect fireguns 'cause they have a history on thir background and compare their accuracy.
Many thanks for your opinion :cheers:

I am patiently trying to find a nice Japanese rifle to add to my collection but I doubt I would ever call one my "favorite". I don't believe they belong in the category of the French or Italian rifles by any means. With the exception of the last ditch rifles, the one's I've handled have been well built and they do not function so differently from other rifles that they stand apart from them.

I would surmise that the general lack of popularity has something to do with the prejudices of WWII lingering on after all these years. While anything German is looked upon almost automatically as being extremely well built, anything Japanese is looked upon as being a weak copy of something better that they couldn't come up with on their own. The US in general felt the same way about their aircraft and other weapons and were rather shocked when they kicked our collective butts the first year of the war.

I have a couple of issues with Italian and French rifles, the Italians being rather "toy like" to me except the earlier WWI vintages. The metal looks solid but the sights, stocks and magazine assemblies just really turn me off. The French guns are another matter altogether. I rarely see them for one thing and with each one I see, there is something more to dislike about them. No safety is a huge problem and the one sitting over at the local gun shop right now has a barrel so thin I'm amazed they don't blow up. The walls are about a thick as a shotgun barrel.

So while I eagerly look forward to adding a Japanese rifle to my collection, I'm really holding out for a WWI vintage Italian and whatever French rifle I end up with will probably just be there to look at, doubt I'd feel comfortable actually shooting one. And yes, I know they fought through one war and part of another with them but for me, that's not enough.

I was always told that Jap is "junk". My Dad peed his pants when I bought one (Type 38). Nice shooting rifle! Some of my friends were/ are prejudiced against them... but no big deal. I have added some to my collection over the years... and yes... probably my most cherished and pretty "favorite" rifle is my wall hanger! Type 99 that was a Battle Field pickup from Okinawa. I won't shoot it due to the battle damage... but I am in awe of it! It was clearly used against our guys! Obviously we were in ferocious pitched battles with these guys!!!

On occasion I do shoot my 38's and 99's, and have never found issue with them! Won't shoot my last ditch rifle... just oggle the crudeness of it....

Another reason why I started collecting them, was due to the cost. At the time K98's were running big $$ (before all the recent RC's). The Japs were historical weapons of War, that were inexpensive, and due to start going up in price... and fine shooters!

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Originally Posted by limpetmine

My father, uncle and father in law all served in the WWII US Navy, Pacific Fleet. The J@@@ didn't fight in an honorable fashion, starting with the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor, followed on by the Bataan Death March, torpedoing of hospital ships, and the countless atrocities in the Philippines and mainland China. They fought with no quarter, and we learned to give none. As these raw memories fade with the passing of that generation, I suppose new collector interest will rise. I, for one, won't have any of it in my house.

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I think this, at least in my experience.

Anyone who knows their history cannot hold one of those rifles or bayonets without wondering how many civilians were shot by it or spitted on it. They're FUGLY for the most part, but yes, they are damn well built as P.O. Ackley established. Same goes for the swords. You have to know the context.

A lot of superficial Western Walter Mitty's are quite taken with the aura of the swords, "bushido" and all that. Just as the same type are often quite taken with german uniforms etc. One can admire the workmanship, but let's not kid ourselves, the samurai were trained to total unquestioning obedience and a capacity for savage cruelty that would curl your ears; before they were sliced off. Their code bore no resemblance to the western code of chivalry. A lot of people have trouble encompassing the contradiction of their admiration for the workmanship and the diligence, and the reality of the behaviour and the racist, supremacist mentality that underlays it. Asian societies operate on "face" and shame basically. You didn't surrender because if you did, you could never return home, and if you were known to have surrendered or even been captured alive, the shame would probably force your family to kill themselves or disappear by moving somewhere where they were unknown. Those Japanese who did surrender or were captured were often quite happy to tell everything they knew to their captors once they had escaped the vise of Japanese society, but they often said that they could never return to Japan. Takes a little thinking about, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Anyone who knows their history cannot hold one of those rifles or bayonets without wondering how many civilians were shot by it or spitted on it. They're FUGLY for the most part, but yes, they are damn well built as P.O. Ackley established. Same goes for the swords. You have to know the context.

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Many thanks for your opinion. BTW, I agree with your words.

There were only about 1.2 million Japanese rifle brought to the US by returning Vets. The rest were thrown in the ocean. There never were stock piles in warehouse like the German and other military rifles. There fore they are getting scarcer and scarcer. However with the vets dying they are showing up.They are very well made rifle and did an excellent job for a bolt action rifle. The simplicity of the rifles make them ideal for combat. I have been collecting them for 60 years and still am. They have gotten quite expensive. I dickering with a guy now for a rifle that will cost at least $4k if I get it. The nice and rare ones are expensive. To me they were the best battle rifle of the bolt action clan.

riceone

They are important to study if you have an interest in Allied arms of the period. Just part of "know your enemy", if nothing else.

A serious underestimation of the Germans and esp. the Japanese by the the Allies were part of the problem prior to WWII. Japan had more LMGs per capita than just about any other WWII army. Zero fighters. Far superior torpedos to the US. Hard training and years of combat experience in China. You don't have to like 'em, but...!

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Originally Posted by riceone

There were only about 1.2 million Japanese rifle brought to the US by returning Vets. The rest were thrown in the ocean. There never were stock piles in warehouse like the German and other military rifles. There fore they are getting scarcer and scarcer. However with the vets dying they are showing up.They are very well made rifle and did an excellent job for a bolt action rifle. The simplicity of the rifles make them ideal for combat. I have been collecting them for 60 years and still am. They have gotten quite expensive. I dickering with a guy now for a rifle that will cost at least $4k if I get it. The nice and rare ones are expensive. To me they were the best battle rifle of the bolt action clan.

riceone

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Hollo riceone !
Very interesting to understand more about why is not easy find out a Japanese rifle; meanwhile many thanks for your opinion about how they were/are made. Many thanks! :cheers:

I don't think they are all that hard to find in the US. I see them all the time. Most have the mums ground off which reduces my interest in them. Other than that, they are often still in their original configuration. I've also found them to be inexpensive, less than $200 and often closer to $100 but again, ground mums. Sporterized versions are also around but these for the military collector are almost worthless and I've seen these sell for less than $100 as recently as this past fall.

Collectability and value is determined by condition, number made and how many are avaliable now or known to exist. For instance a Nagoya series 12 was made at the end of the war and has rough machinging and wood work but its value is close to $2000 because just a few were made and survived. Pictured below are two series 4 T99's, top rifle was made by Nagoya and bottom one was subcontracted out by Nagoya arsenal to Izawa Arsenal. Both look alike but the Izawa is worth about $1000 and the Nagoya around $500.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...RIMG0395-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...RIMG0396-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I don't think they are all that hard to find in the US. I see them all the time. Most have the mums ground off which reduces my interest in them. Other than that, they are often still in their original configuration. I've also found them to be inexpensive, less than $200 and often closer to $100 but again, ground mums. Sporterized versions are also around but these for the military collector are almost worthless and I've seen these sell for less than $100 as recently as this past fall.

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Hi Aragorn ! Many thanks for your opinion.
I only desire to say that: when I saw the first time (now) my Mosin M91/30 it had a lot of mud on the wood. I washed it, I oiled it and now I got a nice rifle (BTW it shoots pretty good!!!). Don't look at the paper, look at the candy... ;) .

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Originally Posted by riceone

Collectability and value is determined by condition, number made and how many are avaliable now or known to exist. For instance a Nagoya series 12 was made at the end of the war and has rough machinging and wood work but its value is close to $2000 because just a few were made and survived. Pictured below are two series 4 T99's, top rifle was made by Nagoya and bottom one was subcontracted out by Nagoya arsenal to Izawa Arsenal. Both look alike but the Izawa is worth about $1000 and the Nagoya around $500.

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That's the main rule here also.
In Italy, i.e., a "business game" make Garand price to be over Euro 900.00. Why? Because here the arsenals are full up of Garands but Garands are not on sale......... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Nice rifles Riceone! Your are the man when it comes to japanese rifles and facts.

Most of the Japanese rifles that I've seen for sale are not in as good condition as other milsurps. It seems that so many of them were kept in the garage or wherever and not regularily cleaned, etc, and have rusted, frosted metal and bores. In the last year I've collected four rifles, however the one with the least "patina" is the one that was sporterized. This is another reason they aren't among the "favorite WWII rifles". So far I've abstained from loosing bigger money to get that more pristine rifle.

The T38 I recently purchased had so much hardened oil/grime that it was difficult to operate the bolt. It had not been cleaned since WWII! The bore is very dark, etc. It was difficult to clean - the hardened gunk appeared to be some sort of sealant at first glance. Also, so many of the rifles do not have matching bolts - its like they were thrown in a barrel when transported, and then randomly installed in the rifles.

It's time for the old negative attitudes that existed after the war to be torn down, and this is happening. I think the current growing interest in collecting Japanese rifles is symbolic of changing attitudes as well as wanting at least "one from every country". As different cultures communicate with each other many of the old extreme negative "ways" gradually change. If you follow post WWII history, you will find that many of the vets from both sides became friends.

One thing I can say about the T38 and T99 rifles - the bolts are a dream to disassemble and put back together! I think that the safety is OK.

The rifles show attention to detail. Probably the biggest negative is the extra "catch" or "hump" or whatever you call it in closing the bolt. Here the enfield is definitely more smooth. I did notice that the old worn T38 mentioned above has a relatively smooth closure compared to others.

Japanese rifles are pretty hard to find here, in Western Canada. If you do find one, they are either outrageously expensive or dirt cheap. (because the seller has no knowledge of the rifles, or think they are junk). I walked away from gunshows with a battle scarred Tokyo Arsenal Type 38 for $160 and a minty Toyo Kogo Series 33 T 99 for only $100!:D
I'm an avid collector of MilSurp weapons, and I feel very fortunate to have scored these rifles.

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Originally Posted by PRWM1

Most of the Japanese rifles that I've seen for sale are not in as good condition as other milsurps. It seems that so many of them were kept in the garage or wherever and not regularily cleaned, etc, and have rusted, frosted metal and bores. In the last year I've collected four rifles, however the one with the least "patina" is the one that was sporterized. This is another reason they aren't among the "favorite WWII rifles". So far I've abstained from loosing bigger money to get that more pristine rifle.

The T38 I recently purchased had so much hardened oil/grime that it was difficult to operate the bolt. It had not been cleaned since WWII! The bore is very dark, etc. It was difficult to clean - the hardened gunk appeared to be some sort of sealant at first glance. Also, so many of the rifles do not have matching bolts - its like they were thrown in a barrel when transported, and then randomly installed in the rifles.

It's time for the old negative attitudes that existed after the war to be torn down, and this is happening. I think the current growing interest in collecting Japanese rifles is symbolic of changing attitudes as well as wanting at least "one from every country". As different cultures communicate with each other many of the old extreme negative "ways" gradually change. If you follow post WWII history, you will find that many of the vets from both sides became friends.

One thing I can say about the T38 and T99 rifles - the bolts are a dream to disassemble and put back together! I think that the safety is OK.

The rifles show attention to detail. Probably the biggest negative is the extra "catch" or "hump" or whatever you call it in closing the bolt. Here the enfield is definitely more smooth. I did notice that the old worn T38 mentioned above has a relatively smooth closure compared to others.

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Many thanks for your post :thup:
About what marked in red: I agree. I know about something happened here and it is not "the only" case.
I like the idea "one for every Country".... but I haven't so much money! :lol:

In July 2006 I bought an Arisaka Type 99 series 4 Nagoya [short] with all the early features, AA sights, monopod, chrome barrel, clean Mum, the works. I paid $365.00 with 110 rd. of ammo and dies. The rifle is mint except for one small dent in the forewood lower. It shoots flawlessly. Excellent bluing and furniture. I hate the Japs as much as anybody. For what they did to prisoners alone deserves literally sinking all their islands with whatever means is available!!. It was the first Mil-Surp rifle I ever bought. It created a landslide of WWII Mil-Surp purchases which has not ended to this day! I cherish the type for what it is and represents. WWII was global and this rifle took part in it. The Mum is intact so it still [technically] belongs to the Emperor. Sorry Hirohito, I have it and you don't. It is part of my collection, and I am the caretaker for now. In a way I love all these firearms as they all represent man's struggle for what they think is right, even if they are morally wrong!! That's my two cents.

Why I love the Type 38 Japanese rifle:

a) The Jap 6.5 mm cartridge is one of the most pleasant rounds you will ever squeeze off down range. Truly minimal recoil and a nice flat trajectory just make for a pleasant range experience.

b) Firing the 6.5 Jap is a great excuse to reload. Not only is reloading enjoyable but the time I spend in the cellar doing it away from my family is priceless.

c) A Jap Rifle is like a pricey lottery ticket. The varied armory markings and series, not to forget the Mum or scrapped Mum scenario, make them a bit more interesting to pick up and or research.

d) I can usually spend 150 bucks for a Jap rifle and blab knowingly about it at gun shows pretending to have far more useful knowledge than I actually have.

e) There are a lot of beautiful Japanese Sporters out there that gunsmiths have put a lot of work on in the 50's and 60's and are in some unique calibers. I consider these the Americana influence in my type 38 collection and you just cannot beat the price on them.

Of course the Japs were savages, fighting in the jungle sucked, and the rifle can be found in varying quality and workmanship. If you shoot what you collect you would probably have a incentive to grab one if you had the chance to fire a nice one before hand.

Old Joe

If you are interested in collecting Japanese rifle you would do well to purchase Fred Honeycutts book "Military Rifles of Japan" cost less than $50 shipped to you. Next join Banzia, a Japanese collector group and then get aquainted with anad make friends with a knowledged collector and he will help you find nice rifles and sometimes good deals. A $150 gun will be a $150 gun 20 years from now, but a nice matching with nice original finish on stock and metal will double in price about ever 10 years. I have paid too much at the time for some rifles but they have increased in value to over come that now. Its not an overnight project. roy

My Father brought home a type 99 with bayonet after the war. Sat at my grandfathers house for years and At age 12 or 13 I became interested in reloading.(the only rifle we had was my Dads 22 rimfire) After studying My parents bought me a Lyman starter set, this was in the mid 60's. Well the only rifle I had access to that I could reload for was the type 99, formed cases from 30-06 milsurp, trimmed and loaded.
Well when all of my family found out that I had worked up reloads and was shooting that "Jap" rifle here they came with the ones they had brought home or had bought or traded for and gave them to me. They couldn't afford the shells,(was not going to pay that kind of price for Jap shells when Sears and Roebuck 00 buck was cheaper). Have 3 or 4 each of the type 99 and the 38. haven't shot them in decades.

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Originally Posted by arado

No romance to them just as the Italian and French. Armies defeated without military mystic. Who wants to use a "losers" rifle. gary

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I do beieve the Germans lost...Twice.

Their rifles are often considered to be the best. In my opinion this idea is completely irrelavent. Also I seem to remember a pretty damn good shot being made with and old Italian rifle in Dallas TX in November 0f '63, if that is the theroy you do believe...

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Originally Posted by mdrim13

I do beieve the Germans lost...Twice.

Their rifles are often considered to be the best. In my opinion this idea is completely irrelavent. Also I seem to remember a pretty damn good shot being made with and old Italian rifle in Dallas TX in November 0f '63, if that is the theroy you do believe...

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As I wrote in one of my posts here, I agree with your words.

BTW, it's odd how the Italians are "always" remembered 'cause any shooting.... :eek: :D

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Originally Posted by 195Pilot

Have 3 or 4 each of the type 99 and the 38. haven't shot them in decades.

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If they are in good shooting condition - hang onto them.

Over here, the Arisaka prices have risen considerably in the last year. I believe it is largely because all the good-shooting Mausers, Enfields, Springfields etc. are in the hands of serious shooters, like myself, and all the good-looking Mausers, Enfields, Springfields etc. are in the hands (or rather the gun cabinets) of collectors. So what is available on the open market, especially on the unmentionable auction sites, is often pretty dire, being neither pretty nor a good shooter. As a result, people are starting to look more soberly at what were previously considered the "also-rans".

You may (or maybe not?) be surprised to learn that I also have an Arisaka - a very fine Type 38, with an intact deep-lustre wood finish that looks like the lacquer on an old Japanese or Chinese casket. This is one rifle where I have done nothing to the stock other than just clean it, carefully. And the joint in the butt is perfect, i.e. invisible.

Up to now, I have only been able to test fire it with some Norma ammo, with moderate results. The second firing, with fire-formed and neck-sized cases, should be much better. I shall report on this in due course.

:wave:

Type 38 chambers do seem to run onn the large side, Can't be good for accuracy, as it's easy to imagine all sorts of evil things happening to those long bullets as they enter the throat at an angle.

I wonder if the minimum range settings on the sights of these rifles also has had an influence on their popularity. The average Joe shoots mostly at 100yds/m when evaluating a new rifle, so his new Japanese rifle may very well shoot over the top of his target-if it's not tall enough.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Type 38 chambers do seem to run on the large side,

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Most delicately put. My T38 chamber is ENORMOUS! The Norma cases develop a real fat-cheeked look. Full resizing would be a disaster.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

The average Joe shoots mostly at 100yds/m when evaluating a new rifle, so his new Japanese rifle may very well shoot over the top of his target-if it's not tall enough.

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Once again, dead on target (or rather, over the top)!

- Jmoore, you are very familiar with Arisaka idiosyncracies, as demonstrated by your solution of the locked-bolt puzzle. I do not always want to reinvent the wheel, so have you got your Arisaka shooting straight, and if so, how? Please!

Patrick
:wave:

Nothing spectacular in 6,5mm, even the sniper. Not horrible, either, though. Sorry, I've just haven't done a ton of load development. The .220 Swift Winchester M70 (1940's era) barreled T38 does 1 MOA or a bit better, so there's nothing wrong w/ the action design! That kind of accuracy is pretty hard to get in most vintage Swift calibered rifles.

The T99 4x sniper, however decided it likes the factory Hornady 150gr ammo. Better than anything I've loaded, but it's all been 174 gr.

I just stumbled into an original type 38 Kokura and must say the quality of workmanship has put to rest the stories I have always heard about the "inferiority" of these weapons. Obviously antiquated vs. am M1
and that amoung many other factors not the least of which is the bravery and sacrifice of our fathers,mothers,grandfathers and grandmothers is why we are not speeking Japanese or German. Thanks to all of you who preserve the relics of this important time in history. Winners, loosers or even the Swiss.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

I just stumbled into an original type 38 Kokura and must say the quality of workmanship has put to rest the stories I have always heard about the "inferiority" of these weapons. Obviously antiquated vs. am M1
and that amoung many other factors not the least of which is the bravery and sacrifice of our fathers,mothers,grandfathers and grandmothers is why we are not speeking Japanese or German. Thanks to all of you who preserve the relics of this important time in history. Winners, loosers or even the Swiss.

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I agree with you! :thup:

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Originally Posted by blackcat_attilio

I agree with you! :thup:

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A thumbs up fron Italy! I just added a Carcano to my to do list.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

A thumbs up fron Italy! I just added a Carcano to my to do list.
Thanks!

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Which, in actual fact, can be extremely precise when fed the right ammo. However, they are very quirky rifles...

Re. the Japanese rifles, I'm thinking that eventually they'll become a collector's delight, given the multitude of manufacturers and small variations. And they're less apt to have gone through rebuild(s), thus making it more likely to find "as manufactured" examples- IF one can get past the defaced "mum" and/or mismatched bolts.

I've got a couple of T99's that have never had the action out of the stock, as the screws are still staked in place! (I think both have mums, but mismatched bolts, or versy-vicey!)

"Perfect" examples are pretty scarce, and will probably be priced accordingly- maybe sooner than later.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

A thumbs up fron Italy! I just added a Carcano to my to do list.
Thanks!

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:thup: :thup: ...what else...? ;)

My advice to all: get yourself an Arisaka, a Carcano, and a Schmidt-Rubin NOW.

OK, so what do I know?

If you think: nothing much - then ignore this advice, print out this post, stick it in a draw, take it out in 5 years time, and then kick yourself.

As I mentioned somewhere else on these forums, for each of my rifles I have a folder with purchase/registration details, chambering standards, loading information, test targets - and prices actually achieved in recent auctions for examples in a comparable condition. And from this I can see that over 2 years the prices have doubled-trebled for comparable Arisakas, nearly doubled for Carcanos, and are just beginning to show a noticeable rise for Schmidt-Rubins.

I keep these folders up-to-date for the benefit of whoever inherits my rifles. Like many others, having looked through truckloads of wall-hanger quality to find a good-shooting example of a type in original configuration, I am not going to part with it as long as I can still shoot. This attitude, multiplied by the number of serious shooters and collectors around the world, means that if you want to get a 1st class shooting example of "the big 5", you will find that as a collector, you have to be rich - and as a competition shooter, you have to be rich and wait for someone to give up shooting.

So, slowly but increasingly, those looking for the nearly impossible, such as a match-grade 1903-A3, are beginning to look at the possible - hitherto neglected rifles in a moderate price range, usually in original configuration, not frequently falsified with fake markings (because it doesn't pay) and, in short, still very good value for the money.

Like I say, look again in 5 years, and see if I'm right! But please don't then start writing moaning posts on the lines of "I can remember seeing Arisakas/ Carcanos/ Schmidt-Rubins for a 100 or so, and wish I'd bought one". Rather look in your gun cabinet and be pleased that you did!

Patrick
:wave:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

My advice to all: get yourself an Arisaka, a Carcano, and a Schmidt-Rubin NOW.

OK, so what do I know?

If you think: nothing much - then ignore this advice, print out this post, stick it in a draw, take it out in 5 years time, and then kick yourself.

As I mentioned somewhere else on these forums, for each of my rifles I have a folder with purchase/registration details, chambering standards, loading information, test targets - and prices actually achieved in recent auctions for examples in a comparable condition. And from this I can see that over 2 years the prices have doubled-trebled for comparable Arisakas, nearly doubled for Carcanos, and are just beginning to show a noticeable rise for Schmidt-Rubins.

I keep these folders up-to-date for the benefit of whoever inherits my rifles. Like many others, having looked through truckloads of wall-hanger quality to find a good-shooting example of a type in original configuration, I am not going to part with it as long as I can still shoot. This attitude, multiplied by the number of serious shooters and collectors around the world, means that if you want to get a 1st class shooting example of "the big 5", you will find that as a collector, you have to be rich - and as a competition shooter, you have to be rich and wait for someone to give up shooting.

So, slowly but increasingly, those looking for the nearly impossible, such as a match-grade 1903-A3, are beginning to look at the possible - hitherto neglected rifles in a moderate price range, usually in original configuration, not frequently falsified with fake markings (because it doesn't pay) and, in short, still very good value for the money.

Like I say, look again in 5 years, and see if I'm right! But please don't then start writing moaning posts on the lines of "I can remember seeing Arisakas/ Carcanos/ Schmidt-Rubins for a 100 or so, and wish I'd bought one". Rather look in your gun cabinet and be pleased that you did!

Patrick

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Had a Finn M91 stumbled across Arisaka ,M44 Nagant . 1918 SMLE no1 MK 3 in a four for one sale.Thanks to Blackcat I now have to find a Carcano. Plan to get a CMP Garand soon. Dont know much about a Schmit-Rubin (will research) a Mauser would be nice. I have little interest in appreciation in value as anything I obtain will be passed on with all the history I can collect to my nephews in the hopes they will appreciate them and the history they represent. My new way of rationalizing a purchase, does not look like our money is going to be worth much soon due to inflation, buy old guns!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

anything I obtain will be passed on with all the history I can collect to my nephews in the hopes they will appreciate them

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Which is a good reason to have those folders. So they can appreciate the stuff - or at least sell it for a fair price!

:wave:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Had a Finn M91 stumbled across Arisaka ,M44 Nagant . 1918 SMLE no1 MK 3 in a four for one sale.Thanks to Blackcat I now have to find a Carcano. Plan to get a CMP Garand soon. Dont know much about a Schmit-Rubin (will research) a Mauser would be nice. I have little interest in appreciation in value as anything I obtain will be passed on with all the history I can collect to my nephews in the hopes they will appreciate them and the history they represent. My new way of rationalizing a purchase, does not look like our money is going to be worth much soon due to inflation, buy old guns!

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...always I'm guilty... :lol: :lol: :lol: Anyway it's a good choise! ;)

What a good matter to have a collection! :thup:

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Which is a good reason to have those folders. So they can appreciate the stuff - or at least sell it for a fair price!

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Ooooh yessss! ...for love or for business. I wish they'll choose the first one ;)

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Originally Posted by blackcat_attilio

Ooooh yessss! ...for love or for business. I wish they'll choose the first one

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It is my mission to instill as much apprecianion for history in each of them as I can in hopes that my collection will stay in the family. My most treasured possetions are the few items photos,discharge papers,gear etc..from WW1 and WW2 that belonged to my grandfathers and father. They remind me of their determination along with others of that era to pass on to me a safer/ better world than the one which they inhabited. I only wish more people felt this way and perhaps we would not be in the mess we find ourselves in now. Here we have someone in Germany,Italy and USA discussing a shared intrest. Reminds me of a segment from Band of Brothers were one of the 101st vets was interviewed and spoke of how in other circumstances he and the Germans he was fighting agains might have a shared intrest in hunting or fishing an be good friends. Very touching. Very true.

I picked up an Arisaka T-99 [short] back in 2006. I collect mil-surps and study WWII. To me, they arn't just firearms but artifacts of WWII history. Many mil-surp rifles are rather inexpensive to collect. I was quite lucky I thought in acquiring this T-99 battle rifle. Nagoya, series 4, Ack Ack sights, Mono, Numbers matching, perfect mum, excellent blue, almost perfect stock. It shoots straight at 100 yds. Paid $365.00 with 110 rounds + dies. I truly love this hobby for many reasons. It is a collector item from the Japanese Army used in WWII from 1939 until their defeat in 1945. Mine still has a perfect Mum, so I guess it still belongs to the Japanese Emperor, sorry bout' that, I intend to keep it!!!

[]Mine still has a perfect Mum, so I guess it still belongs to the Japanese Emperor, sorry bout' that, I intend to keep it!!![/quote]
He is not going to get mine either. It amazes me to hold my type 38 with the bayonet attached imagine a 5' 110 lb Japanese soldier toting the load. I think folks were tougher then.

IMHO, the main reason Japanese rifles don't have the charisma other milsurps have is because of the bad press they received, during and after WWII. I've seen hundreds of them piled on tables in poor to very good condition. The price on them was all the same, $5. We did all sorts of nasty things to them in our experiments. Almost all of them, had the crests ground off the receivers in haphazard manners. This made them "not pretty." They also weren't so marvelously smooth to operate, like European and North American bolt actions. Carcano, Lebels, etc, mostly suffered the same problems.
I don't thing anyone cared one way or another if the country or origin was on the losing side or not. Another example of fine rifles that didn't get any respect, until recently, were the various Mosin Nagants. Lets face it, they are finished in the rough for the most part, the bolts are complicated and they just aint pretty. With the arrival of millions of them and boat loads of ammunition to go into them, they are starting to gain a following. That happened once before with Mosins. The ammunition ran out and the rifles became almost worthless.

Japanese milsurp ammo has always been scarce. There were the very odd lots but that was it. That's one of the reasons Mauser 98s were converted to sporters. Ammunition became scarce and people started to tinker with them. It started a a boom, that led to all sorts of cottage industries.

Japanese rifles just couldn't overcome the bad rep the "media experts" gave it. That along with its rough action didn't help matters. PO Ackley, tried to dispell the "media myths" to no avail. Funny thing is, polish the rails, ways, lug recesses, bolt lugs etc and the action smooths right up. It is also very precise and well fitted. The finishes, especiall on some T38s, rivals factory sporters of the time. During the war years, Japan allowed their factories to cut corners, just like the axis powers and other war torn nations did. This was quite understandable. Like the rifles of every other nation, they may have been lacking lustre but they were just fine where it really counted.

Those ground receiver rings really do put a lot of people off, including me. I just don't like them. Another rifle that doesn't get a lot of respect, are the Siamese Mausers. The finishes on those are very nice. Just can't find any ammunition. It was only recently that brass and bullets became available.

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Who wants to use a "losers" rifle.

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So you don't 'believe' in collecting Mausers or Carcanos or Lugers etc? What about Mosins, as Russia lost the war of independence with Finland? I don't think this comment has anything really to do with whether we collect something or not. I think we collect simply based on our interest in the history of the firearm or the period it came from, or even more guttural, we simply like the looks of it - or both!

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I, for one, won't have any of it in my house.

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This kind of comment as well has the ring of associating political ideology to a firearm. If someone were to tell me they wouldn't collect a Jap rifle because of the Dec 7 sneak attack, I'd have to ask them if they would refuse a k98 because of the Battle of the Bulge? It simply is attaching evil to the firearm, an inanimate object. The gun is not evil. The person pulling the trigger may be. I don't blame a T-99 for the Bataan Death March any more than I do a 1940 Mauser Luger for the deaths of Jews in concentration camps.

As to the quality of japanese rifles, I don't own one yet, but am actively pursuing information as I wish to add one to my WW2 collection. But from what I've read their quality is fine - and as to 'last ditch', no more shoddy than a last ditch Mauser. The last ditch rifles should be approached from an historical view, rather than one of pure quality. Of course it's not as nice as a pre-war example - and one shouldn't expect it to be so, nor use it as a point to argue against the firearm, unless the quality was such that the firearm was unable to perform, which from what I've read isn't the case. The last ditch efforts merely reduced the weapon to doing only what it was intended without all the pretty features and quality of finish.

No, I think the real reasons these have not attained any real status is that they have never been mass imported and the odd caliber is not one readily obtained in sizable quantities unlike 7.62x54, .303 or 8x57, etc. Naturally one of the big allures of military surplus is the stores of surplus ammunition that goes along with it.

I just recently discovered a source for these and all were advertised as 'not import marked'. Where this company got so many of them I don't know - but that just goes to show that these have never really been imported in any numbers, or these would have all been import marked.

Another reason many people may shy away from them is that most examples you stumble on have been utterly butchered by back wood gunsmiths. Our country has a deep love to convert anything military into a 'good deer gun' to the point that it's possibly utterly amazing we have any milsurps left that have not had the stocks cut, barrels cut, bayonet lugs removed, etc. I saved a nice Finnish M91/30 from being cut and hacked on a couple of years ago - guy wanted to convert it into a hunting rifle. I asked him - 'Why don't you simply go to a gun shop and buy a durn hunting rifle then?' They end up with these things on trades and for $50 and don't want to just go spend the money is all it is.

jap rifles got a bad rep after the war...when i was a kid (1960s) you could find them at yard sales for $25 .i know i bought my 38th year 6.5 with mum (bring back captured)at one of them.these are very good guns..i see prices on them climbing because they are drying up.i like that there is not alot of collectors compared to other rifles.good for us that do.(have two mod 99s also).

I bought my first Japanese rifle in the fall of 1950. I wanted to hunt deer and could not afford a commercial rifle but could afford $7.50 for a 7.7. Naturally I modified the stock and alot of others did the same thing for the same reason.