Question about 30 round clips and bayonet lugs on Carbines in WW2

Simple question? Does anyone have any vintage WW2 images showing any soldier carrying a late issue M1 Carbine with a 30 round magaze or a weapon having the bayonet lug? Most all the books refer to these modifications as being from late 1944 to early 1945, but I've yet to see any verified footage or still images showing a soldier with either. Hard to find the guns without them in the Korean conflict, but incredibly hard to find images of them in WW2. I'd love some images if they can be supplied. Thanks much! Perry

Yes bayonet lugs new sites and 30 shot magazines were after ww2. Refits did not make it back to the WW2 battlefields. No bayonets and L-shaped flip sites were the standard with 15 shot mags. The M-3 trench knife was comman for those that did not have bayonets like smg,carbine,morter crews,paratroopers,mg crews. The M3 trench knife design was used for the Carbine bayonet.

It has been debated a long time if any carbines with the type 3 barrel band made it into the war before it ended. It seems they did not appear in Europe till after the war ended there. There are a couple of photos reported as being taken on Okinawa during the battle there where a carbine with a type 3 band was spotted. But that is hotly debated too as some say the photos are mislabeled and were taken after the war ended in the Pacific. The type 2 and 3 adjustable rear sight did make it into combat as they were being installed in the spring of 1944. The type 3 barrel band didn't come into use till about October 1944. The 30 round magazines really didn't appear till around the time Inland went into full production of the M2 carbine in April 1945.

Bayo lugs and adjustable sights made it to the Pacific. See picture from the battle for Iwo Jima. This carbine has the bayo lug and appears to have the flip sight.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yonetlug-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by jeep

Yes bayonet lugs new sites and 30 shot magazines were after ww2. Refits did not make it back to the WW2 battlefields. No bayonets and L-shaped flip sites were the standard with 15 shot mags. The M-3 trench knife was comman for those that did not have bayonets like smg,carbine,morter crews,paratroopers,mg crews. The M3 trench knife design was used for the Carbine bayonet.

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Thank you for your response Jeep. The original images I've seen do support what you say with the exception of the adjustable rear sight. It's a bit odd that pretty much "all" the collector books show these modifications to Carbine production being implemented in later 1944. Many months before the war's end. I suppose it's possible the modifications were made but never really made it to the field in time to see actual war time. I have seen the wider type two barrel bands in WW2 images, but not the 30 round clips and bayo lugs. Seems I've seen some adjustable sights in WW2 images as well. Note in Tom Laemlien's excellent book, "The M1 Carbine" which is a highly recommended book for WW2 and Korean War vintage imagery, shows on page 44. left image #68, an image of s soldier shoulering a Carbine with an adjustable rear sight and type two barrel band. A study of the image appears to be from WW2, and not later. The claims the photo is from 1944.

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Bayo lugs and adjustable sights made it to the Pacific. See picture from the battle for Iwo Jima. This carbine has the bayo lug and appears to have the flip sight.
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...bayonetlug.jpg

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Thaks Inland44.... I appreciate it!! I have what I feel to be a completely correct 4-45 Inland with Bayo lug and adjustable rear sight. (Ser 71xxxxx). Love that image!

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Bayo lugs and adjustable sights made it to the Pacific. See picture from the battle for Iwo Jima. This carbine has the bayo lug and appears to have the flip sight.
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...bayonetlug.jpg

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Thanks so much! That's a great image! You don't see many for sure.. but since pretty much all the books mention these late changes were implented from about mid 44 til early 45, it makes sense that at least some of them would've made it to the field.

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Thanks Bruce M and Inland44.. Great commentary and very helpful.

Bayonet Lugs were delivered from Mid 44 thru Mid 45, I have the contracts. That does not mean they got in the assembly line that early. As you know only Inland and Winchester made carbines with Bayonet Lugs attached.

Lots of Carbines were rebuilt during WWII, some with Bayonet Lugs. I have a document showing the loss of 165,885 small arms, (not including machine guns nor sub machine guns) in Europe from June 4 thru Dec 31, 1944.

Just add on the rest of the war time, the other theaters, the Navy and Marine Corps, and you will find lots of guns lost. That means many, many, many were restored back after battles.

As already stated above, production of 30 Round Magazines did not start until April of 1945.

This photo is reported to be in Italy

Us Fifth Army In Italy
Amer. infantrymen chatting as they assemble & try out rifles they have chosen at hillside ammunition & supply station overlooking valley & the hills beyond on the Italian front in the Appennine Mountains.
Location: Italy
Date taken: April 1945
Photographer: Margaret Bourke-White
Attachment 20538
Now, a simple search of the photographer Margaret Bourke-White will tell you that she only photographed during WWII so you be the judge!

I don't have a clue as to the date of the picture below.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...arbineT4-1.jpg

Sgt Westhoven has a very scarce pattern of bayonet lug there. I wonder if he has it as a vet bring back? Now, to find him...

That looks like a HOWA bayo lug (type two band). Could be a post war Jaspanese rebuild. He also looks like he has a 1945 pack on.
My FIL served in the ocupation force in Japan. We have some staged photos that are simular. One almost identical, except he is holding a Garand. So I wonder if the photo is post war. JMT.....Frank

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

That looks like a HOWA bayo lug (type two band).

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Rear sight looks funny as well, as well as the sling attachment--it doesn't seem to go into the sling well on the correct side of the stock.

My $0.02

I agree that the sling doesn't seem to even be fixed in the proper place, but stranger things. He also doesn't have a mag on and being a tech type those photos were more for fun on their part then anything. BUT...if you go to War Baby, in pic 185 on page 225 you see Larry Ruth holding a carbine stated to be model 4, M1 E3 (M1A3) with that exact bayonet lug. In the Springfield Armory. If I am correct, Howa made them for the J.D.F. ? And they also were a cross pinned barrel mounted lug? Then in pic 272 on page 286, type C band the T2 has a short lug but it's on an extended band and this isn't it. In any case the book states work order for Jul 7 1945 directed bands be replaced with completion date of 1 Jan 46. The lug we know today was approved on 10 May 1944.

Roy Dunlop, the famous gunsmith, served in the Ordnance Department throughout the Second World War. He served in North Africa and the Phillipine Island campaigns and spent time in Occupied Japan at the war's conclusion. I consider him to be the last word on the M-1 carbine update matters as he was repairing damaged weapons coming in from the battlefield. He notes in his excellent WWII memoir "Ordnance Went Up Front" that he first saw the 30 round carbine magazines on a few M-1 and M-2 carbines coming back for repairs during the Phillipine campaign of Oct. 1944-April 1945.

So, the long and the short of things---both the M-2 carbine and the 30 round magazine were in service by early 1945 as verified by this unimpeachable primary reference sort of guy who was not only in proximity to the battlefield but was in a position to know what he saw. By extension, this would also mean that the bayonet lugged barrel band and the adjustable rear sight were also in use at least on a limited basis before the war ended.

Bill, nice bayo photo from Italy. Can you tell from the original whether that carbine has an adjustable rear sight too?

I would bet none made it by the time the ink was dry and war over and were in combat by the end of WW2. Yes it is a ongoing battle by collecters to make there not correct WW2 be correct. Show me the dates on the photo,s. Most books were made after ww2 and put together with undated photo,s. Some still try try to make a silk purse out of pig.

My dad carried an Inland on Iwo from D-Day +6 on that had a Type II rear sight, but no bayonet lug. The M2 carbine training video I had Badger post was from early 1945 (pre-Okinawa) and compared it to Jap weapons.

The fighting in the Philippine's didn't end till the war ended in August 1945. That was the only front that M2 carbines and type 3 barrel bands were used. The picture of the troops in Italy do not have type 3 bands on their carbines. Look close and you will see that they have grenade launches on their carbines not bayonets. Many of the pictures from the war were often mislabeled by the magazines they appeared in as to date and location many times by accident and sometimes at the request of the military so as not to pass on information to the enemy.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Look close and you will see that they have grenade launches on their carbines not bayonets.

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Boy, it sure looks like the guy in the top center (with the helmet, firing toward the left) has a bayonet. There is what looks like the handled under the barrel, and the part projecting beyond the muzzle appears to be below the barrel and kind of pointy, as compared with the soldier immediately to his right (rifle pointing up, clearly a grenade launcher installed).

Granted, the photo gets pretty pixelated when zoomed-in,but that is sure what it looks like on this frosty morning.............

The whole pic doesn't make sence. There's this group on the left looking like they're in action, about four bottom right with weapons down and Thompson unloaded. There's four top right with hands in pockets disinterested and one lone guy eating. What I remember about enemy contact is everyone is interested and in some way involved. But the guy pointing his carbine? It DOES LOOK like a bayonet from here. But to me, the pic look like Korea too.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The whole pic doesn't make sence. There's this group on the left looking like they're in action, about four bottom right with weapons down and Thompson unloaded. There's four top right with hands in pockets disinterested and one lone guy eating. What I remember about enemy contact is everyone is interested and in some way involved. But the guy pointing his carbine? It DOES LOOK like a bayonet from here. But to me, the pic look like Korea too.

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According to the caption on the photo:

American infantrymen chatting as they assemble & try out rifles they have chosen at hillside ammunition & supply station overlooking valley & the hills beyond on the Italian front in the Appennine Mountains.

To me, it looks like the guy aiming up the hill is holding a larger rifle - maybe it's not a carbine?

Bruce, I'm sorry but that is a bayonet. The photo is dated by who took it and the fact that she was NOT anywhere taking photos but during WWII and in the ETO.

I can't see if the rear sight is adjustable.

I magged up the Bourke-White (Italy) photo again. Yes that is a bayonet on the carbine (you can see the magazine). The first G.I. with his back to us and the carbine over his right sholder sure looks like an adjustable sight to me, also looks like a low wood stock. That's what I see.....Frank:cheers:

Jim, I wonder if the pic is miss labled. Does any other equipment in the photo look like Korean era to you?

I originally thought Korea also but it can't be because the 88th was not in Korea. Look at the helmet with the 88th insignia on it. The distinctive 88th Division marking on one soldier's helmet confirms that it's ETO... I suppose we could further speculate that the M-4 bayonet, confirmed to have been issued to at least the 17th Abn Div. preparing to cross the Rhine (March, 1945), may have been attached to this soldier's carbine with cloth electrical tape, right?

Frank, I don't know enough about US field equipment to give a good reason for thinking it's Korea exept the terrain and the snow. If Margret Bourke -White hand labeled the pic then I guess that's it.

I agree that the carbine on the soldier's back in the lower right of the picture appears to have a low wood stock and has an adjustable rear sight on it. What kind of rifle is the soldier on the left taking aim with? It appears to have a large box magazine. The rifle that has the bayonet appears to have some sort of rear sight that is located right above the man's left hand and ahead of the magazine - that magazine looks big too, but it might be just because it's partially hidden from view. Anyway, the rear sight seems to be located in front of the magazine, and not where it should be on a carbine.

- Bob

Bob, I think that you are seeing his fingers of his left hand coming up on the right side of the stock.
There certainly is a mix of infantry weapons in the picture for sure.....Frank

I agree it is WWII. Of the six carbines in the picture, only one has bayonet and lug, and one other has adjustable rear sight. If it was Korea, chances are most, if not all, would have been upgraded after the war. The Korea pics I pulled up had upgraded carbines.

Good point RM.
Bill you might be right about the taped on bayonet. G.I.'s certainly adapted things.....Frank

Italy was removed from ETO in February 1943. A new command, the North Africa Theater of Operations (NATO), was created to allow ETO to concentrate on Overlord. NATO became the Meditteranean Theater of Operations (MTO) in November 1944, a few months before the photo was published.

I zoomed with photoshop and tried to get close enough to see some of the details -

It looks to me like there is a bayonet lug holding the bayonet, and an adjustable sight on the carbine that's slung behind the soldier's back in the foreground (?)
You can also see a 'stock pouch' in the first photo.

I agree completely. Maybe he came from the states the day before and was issued the carbine a month ago. First of the new ones.

utube Combat bulletin 58 21.15 minutes in you can clearly see the soldier in back of a jeep carrying a carbine with a bayonet lug. The footage was taken on Okinawa.

Combat Bulletin No. 58 (1945) - YouTube here is a link to the video

Welcome to Milsurps Buzz j,
Nice find, I can clearly see a Bayonet band starting @ 21:10 minutes in.
And I see a Adj Rear Sight !!
Late here, I'll look closer at the whole video tomorrow.
Good Job adding the linked Video.
Wish you would have started a new thread for it, but it should be fine in this likewise topic.

Cheers,
Charlie-P777