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My IHC Garand is serial # 5159XXX indicating 1954 manufacture with a LMR 8 53 barrel.
I'm not sure if the stock is IHC or HRA. the stock barrel groove has no numbers. All of the technical publications on the Garand still leave me with doubts on stock manufacturer. Is there a simple, foolproof to tell the difference ?
There are certain hallmarks, telltale signs that can point you to the original manufacturer. The easiest thing for you to do is to post nice clear pictures of the stock, particularly the pistol grip, any cartouches, a side view showing the stock from mid-receiver to mid-butt stock and one of the empty stock from above. The experts can then see the contours and weigh in with their opinions. I'm not one of those guys ;)
The IHC stocks should have the same DOD cartouche as the SA's, 1/2" box. As far as I know the IHC stocks all had a four digit number and an OR in the barrel channel on the early ones and just the four numbers on the later ones. If the DOD cartouche is 3/8" it is probably an HRA stock. Either way it is a beautiful rifle.
To me, it looks HRA..large back porch, non-serified P & the thick right rear side of receiver cut are the signs of an HRA stock. Looks like a sweet piece of wood.
I say HRA. It has the typical large HRA "porch" to the rear of the receiver heel. An IHC stock will have the 4 digit julian date in the barrel channel plus a "scallop" or relieved area on the right side of the stock to the rear and below the windage knob.
HRA , not IHC
Wrong cartouche, wrong contour, wrong finish marks, lacks julian date all indicate non IHC
Nice stock though
An exceptionally nice HRA stock but keep the following in mind. Original IHC rifles in the in the 5.0 to 5.2 serial number range have been found equipped with HRA stocks. According to Scott Duff, "the heaviest concentration of HRA stock usage appears to be in the 5.15 to 5.17 million serial number range." Your rifle fits right in this range. You can find an article by Scott Duff, with a data sheet of rifle 5169890 with HRA stock in the Spring 2005 edition of the Garand Collectors Journal.
Even if this stock is not original to this rifle it will sure save you a ton of money that you would have to pay for a IHC stock. This stock works just fine on your rifle. SEMPER FI
Thank all of you for your time and knowledge. I really appreciate the information.
That is clearly Overton stock {see partial v-notch} and the arched star DAS that matches the late 5.6 million to end Sprinfield. Rick B
---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------
Overton most proabbly roughed in the blanks and HRA finished it out if it is a HRA but the DAS is very confusing. Rick B
I believe you are correct Sir, the angle is steeper than the angle on an SA Stock, and we know it's not a Winchester. I never enlarged that picture untill you pointed it out. I have an Overton stock on one of my Garands, but it's birch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick B
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../image04-1.jpg
It is clearly finished by HRA when I see the back porch with the back porch. HRA was famous for a lopsided rear to one side or the other. They did have some pretty rounded and even but most of the time it was lopsided to one side or the other. This stock lops to the left. The DAS is what confuses me. The only time HRA used a Arched star configuration was on the 3/8th DAS so I do not understand the arched stars on this one like IHC used and late Springfield. The dimensions match the SA stamp but I would need a better amount of the eagle to tell the lines in it to whose stamp it was. Maybe in the end when SA had a stamp made HRA also ordered one and this type of DAS belongs on late HRA'S?????? Rick B
Rick, I believe you posted some photos of the various DAS styles but not sure where I had seen them. In comparing the DAS on the OP's rifle and the DAS on my IHC (Overton) dated "2084", I really see no difference. Both are "arched star". As the DAS would have been stamped by inspector at IHC upon acceptance I don't see the DAS as "confusing", if in fact the stock was used by IHC. But then again, I may well be missing something. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick B
Lets see if this will show proper size. The HRA here has a step on the wing and IHC has smooth undersides. The stars appear a bit smaller on a IHC. The Arrows are closer to the bottom of the box on the IHC. There are enough differences here that it is strange. By the way I in no way say this is fake at all. I just know that I have seen a ton of after war rebuild period Overtons that were in Birch and Walnut with large back porches. I also know for a fact that Winchester was still making Stocks after WWII after talking to a worker who remember being there after WWII. Their is no reason HRA may not have contracted this also and Overton roughed in the stocks for them. All possibilities but most probably HRA had Overton make rough them in and they finished them. Clearly with the Overton V-notch they made this stock initially. It very well could have been a rebuild that SA used. The door is open way to much to say anything positive at this time. I know that Scott DUff had something going a few years back on this as someone seen them at CMP. The problem was I think they said HRA made them for Overton but that is not possible. Overton would not make them, send them to HRA then send them to IHC. I am just thinking off the top of my head here so take all of this at face value for now. . I need a clearer picture of the DAS on this stock and I can do a all around comparison. This pic may be enough that I am way off base also because depth of the stamp can cause differences along with a blurred picture like we have when blown up. Rick B
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IHC1112-1.jpg
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Ok, here are the three together and I am starting to wonder if HRA later had a different DAS. I never really put much thought into this until now. All of the heads look differnet. Rick B
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mparejpg-1.jpg
The above quote is what I don't understand. If some HRA stocks were used on 5.0 to 5.2 IHC rifles why do you feel that HRA would not send them to IHC ? Unless you are saying that the DAS on the OPs stock is clearly not IHC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick B
Thanks for the pictures of the DAS. They are interesting. I am sure if you could see the OPs stock you would come up with the right answer.
Why would Overton make a stock blank {We see the V-Notch} and send it to HRA for them to finish it for IHC when Overton dealt directly with IHC? Also there are no barrel channel numbers. Now I can see Overton making stocks for HRA and they final fit them. This is not a HRA made stock and Overton did not make stocks normally for HRA but may very well have helped out when they had a problem with the cutters possibly. But for HRA to then send them over to IHC is to far fetched. Rick B
I think you may be referring to the article by Scott Duff "Featured Rifle IHC s/n 5169890" found in the Spring 2005 edition of the Garand Collectors Journal. In this article Scott states "Some years ago I noticed that the CMP was finding a lot of apparently original IHC M1 rifles in the 5-million serial number range that were equipped with HRA stocks." Scott goes on to say " The database includes information on slightly over 1000 original IHC rifles in this 5 million s/n range. To date, the lowest observed rifle with an H&R stock is 5032040 and the highest is s/n 5205413, which is a "gap letter" variant. The heaviest concentration of H&R stock usage appears to be in the 5.15 to 5.17 mil. s/n range. Approximately 970 rifles are listed in the database between s/n 5032040 and 5205413. Of these, 199, or slightly over 20 %, are equipped with H&R stocks."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick B
There is no mention in this article of HRA making stocks for Overton.
As these stocks most likely were manufactured by HRA not Overton the OPs stock is not original to his rifle. Guess it is possible that a prior owner put that stock on the rifle figuring, do to the s/n of the rifle, it would be a less costly alternative than a IHC stock. This is what I was telling the OP to do, but I did not realize the stock was Overton.
I guess as far as the OPs stock we are back to the original question, if not HRA, what is it ? We know it is not IHC or Winchester, so what is left ? A replacement stock ?? And still need to figure out the "P" proof and the DAS. Guess it's things like this that keep our interest.
I have a feeling no one ever looked at the V-notch on those rifles from the late IHC's and can bet in the end they may have deleted the number system and enlarged there stock sizes like plenty of the rebuilt fatties as I call them I have seen. The V-notch may have just been a oversight and I still to this day cannot understand why one of the largest stock makers in the world would have HRA do some of their work? It just doesn't make sense and is the worst thing about not being there back then to see what really happened. This is something I brought up on the boards well before the article and I think Bodyman was talking about this find but I cannot remember now. I interjected about the Overton body style and no one wanted to answer. maybe because it ruined their Idea about these stocks but not sure.
I would like to see these late model HRA stocks built for IHC's and if they have the V-notch this whole theory is incorrect. I know for a fact that Overton built stocks for HRA when they fell behind and built hand guards for them also.
Hasn't anyone figured out a time machine yet??? Rick B
A quick note, I am not saying IHC didn't receive some HRA stocks and possibly left overs at the end but I am saying if the reported HRAs on IHCs have the V-notch then the theory has to be rethought. I didn't want anyone think I was saying Scott Duffs article was incorrect. Rick B
So what's the consensus as to if this is the correct stock for the rifle, or is it too arguable to know ?
I wouldn't call it too arguable, its more like misunderstood at this point. There are to many things different than the norm and I wouldn't change a thing if this is the way it was received. If you feel the need to get a Barrel Channel marked IHC make sure you keep this stock until more is figured out. This stock is clearly an Overton but someone like Wayne Bradford may have more information on this stock and why it was used if it was. Rick BQuote:
Originally Posted by broomhandle
Rick, Thanks again for your insight. I think you have said just about all there is to say. Makes sense to me but hope someone figures this all out in time. The answer is out there someplace. Joe