VICTORY MODEL? 45 and R on barrel

I am having a hard time identifying this. It seems to have alot of stampings and I didn't even see the stamp under the cylinder on the left side that reads notenglishmake I was thinking victory model. https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/007-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/012-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/017-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/019-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/020-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/021-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/022-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/02/023-1.jpgThe R on the barrel is hard to see and sorry the pics of the barrel aren't good.

That is not a Victory model. It was probably bought prior to the U.S. entry into WWII by the British Purchasing Commission. The British were desperate for weapons during the early days of WWII and raided the shelves of virtually U.S. pistol maker. They even bought Colt Single Action Army pistols. The pistol shown is a S&W .38/44 Heavy Duty.
The local gun shop had a S&W M&P with British proofs which was also a British Purchasing Commission pistol.

Johnny, you say .38/44 but it has a 45 and some space and then a A and partial R on the barrel so it reads 45 A R and I know it is a big caliber for sure my 45acp gauges it perfect the cylinder is about 3/8 inch longer then the acp round and of course it falls right through the cylinder. the top part of the R is showing ,I don't think it's a P cause there seems to be microscopic parts of the R that these eyes barley make out. But I've been wrong before. Can you give me any info on all the proof marks and what they mean.BV BP NP in circles with crown above and I looked closer and the ones on the cylinder are alternated using all three. A U4 no circle and a crown with what I describe as a propeller on a stick above it. and an X with a D and a 3 in left and lower 90 of the X. and of course the NOTENGILSHMAKE. If some one can enlighten me on this it would be cool.

I did have a feeling cause the grips seemed civilian in nature. I will be going to the gun shop for other reason but will take it along to see if its shootable and a caliber check, as I know the Brits used .455.

I just looked at the SW .44 Hand Ejector 1st model and it seems to be the one. In comparison its identical with the heavier ejector shroud that the 2nd edition does not have. Made 1908-1915. this one has a 3 or 4 didget ser#.

You didn't show a caliber marking unless it was the shot that was too blurry to see. You called it a Victory model and all Victory models were .38 caliber. Could you show a picture of the caliber marking?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...or014JPG-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...or015JPG-1.jpg
the 5 in 45 looks to be double struck. and the top writing at front site is missing some of the first letters and i wonder if the barrel was shortened. it measures 5 3/8 from end to end but is 5inch if from frame to end. not sure where the measurement is taken. the book said they came in 5 and 6.5 lengths and rare 4inch.

BV - Birmingham View mark , passed visual inspection , BP- Birmingham Definitive Proof , passed low preassure firing , NP- Birmingham Nitro Proof , passed smokeless powder proof. Crossed pennants , military proof . Broad arrow , military ownership mark. Curved barbs dates to WW1 era , other marks post 1925 to pre 1955 era. I would guess this was made in .455 , due to the broad arrow mark , then perhaps rechambered to .45 Auto-rim when shipped here ( hence the crude 45 AR stamp) , due to the lack of .455 here and the higher cost of it. Just a guess , though. It could have been made in .45 ACP orig.
Chris

Thank U, Thank U, at first I was considering buying it myself cause the victory pistols were cheap in the book. but in Identifying it as a .44 Hand ejector mod 1 the price for a poor condition is $500 fair 750 good 1300 vg 2000 exc 4000. I think this is poor to fair. The trick is to get some one who wants to buy it and for the honest price. Good news for my friend that its worth more than 1st thought. Is 45 AR the same as 45 colt. The gun shop thought it was 45 long colt and put a round in it and seemed to fit.

The original caliber markings have been removed, and the .45 A R is undoubtedly for .45 Auto, and was crudely hand stamped. The pistol has lost all it's collector value, so proceed as if it is a shooter. .44 Special caliber used a .429 bullet where the .45 ACP/AR used a .451 bullet.
The pistol shows the British broad-arrow property mark, and then the British commercial proofs when it was sold out of military stores.

I can assure you it is not 45 acp as the cylinder is too long and an acp round when inserted into cylinder goes through and falls to the floor. it is 45 colt. I do however think the barrel was replaced or at least monkeyed about with (like you saidpossibly for the American market) or at least shortened as the S and part of the M in smith is missing indicating that something is a miss. It also could be that the brits crudely marked the barrel 45 AR so they would not put the .455 in the wrong gun over their and the barrel work was done cause they just needed a shorter gun or it was shortened some time after but at a time when collectors weren't in mind such as to meet their needs you know what with the WAR and what not.

Apparently during the war, early on, there was a drive for guns for the English. They were donated from households all over North America. Everything came out to play. These guns used a half moon clip for the 45 ammo so it would be held in place. Now we use a full moon clip for all six instead of three each. Back here in North America the clips cost too much. It was common to run a 45 long Colt chamber ream into a 45 auto cylinder because the clips were not needed then. Yes, the barrel has been shortened and the sight reattached. Just about everything about this gun has been altered. I would be hard pressed to pay $300 for it. It's a neat old gun but just a shooter.

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Originally Posted by DaveN

I can assure you it is not 45 acp as the cylinder is too long and an acp round when inserted into cylinder goes through and falls to the floor. it is 45 colt. I do however think the barrel was replaced or at least monkeyed about with (like you saidpossibly for the American market) or at least shortened as the S and part of the M in smith is missing indicating that something is a miss. It also could be that the brits crudely marked the barrel 45 AR so they would not put the .455 in the wrong gun over their and the barrel work was done cause they just needed a shorter gun or it was shortened some time after but at a time when collectors weren't in mind such as to meet their needs you know what with the WAR and what not.

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The first Colt Model 1917 revolvers did not have a shoulder in the cylinder, and the .45ACP they were made for would fall down into the cylinder. They were intended to be used with the half moon clips. After WWI the .45 Auto Rim cartridge was developed so that the pistol could be fired without the clips.
You can bet your paycheck that the British didn't alter the pistol. Some of the Colt SAA's they bought were 7 1/2 in barrel, and they were not altered. All they wanted was pistols, and customizing them was the last thing on their mind. The cutting, drilling, and stamping was done after it was sold by the British government.
What are the markings under the crown which is under the broad-arrow property mark?

H under U4

U4
H


D X
3

the x is bigger and D and 3 are with in the X D to the left 3 in lower of X.



Johnny so your saying the 45 AR is 45 ACP and some kind of clips are needed to fire this pistol. like the clips you can use to speed load revolvers in competition. I thought the extractor to unload the brass was the half moon (built in clip they were referring to).

.45 Auto Rim was the cartridge developed so that revolvers chambered for .45 ACP could be fired without having to use the clips.
The U4 identifies the inspector doing the proofing, and the H identifies the facility where it was proofed.
The picture shows the .45 ACP in the half moon clips.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2lcocn5-1.jpg

Dang, it looks like a "first model" .455 that was later converted to .45ACP by facing off the rear of the cylinder. Think "triple lock" but in .455- pretty scarce and some folk think they're worth a bit, regardless- IF they are in good shooting condition.

However: (this is just the "ten second photo perusal" evaluation)- The barrel at the front of the frame looks odd, though. Perhaps it has been shortened at the back end and the extractor rod shortened as well. That would throw it right out of collector status!

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Yup, it's a triple lock. And the barrel still seems short on the back end. Too bad.

Robbed this image off the internets:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../02/tlk2-1.jpg
Ignore the caliber, the nickel plating, and the overall shorter barrel- the .44 Spl cartridges do give scale, though- maybe 3/8-7/16" was removed from the rear end of the barrel -at least- on DaveN's example.

Photo courtesy some fellow called "tipoc"

Note the swelling of the barrel where it butts up against the frame- DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why? :dunno:

BTW, I seem to recall something like 5000 "triple lock" .455s mfg, but don't hold me to that.

DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why?

Maybe there were rings to contend with.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why?

Maybe there were rings to contend with.

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Maybe, but it's an odd place. Usually a bulged barrel there means a distressed frame as well.

And, depending on S/N, it's most likely a .455 weapon bought during WWI by the British gov't in the first of two runs- the second was much larger, but was all 2nd model. The grips are correct, regardless, but that's about all that's good. Even if it's functionally sound, the cylinder throats on these are typically huge- 0.457-8". Maybe even 0.460". Poor little .45 ACP/AR bullets just wallow around for a while until they MIGHT catch a bit of rifling after entering the barrel, which is only about 0.003-4" too big...Accuracy, as you might expect on one of these conversions is typically not stellar.

I will be going to the gun show on the 19th and I have some contacts there that can give it the live look see. I know the ones i can trust. Just looking to help a friend clean out his closet, and if he can make a few dollars then great. I do think it is a 1st model and ser# is 4xx or 4xx x so either 400 or 4000 as was stated only 5000 made might give evidence of that. As you said the barrel seems messed with. If I find alot of messed with guns it would seem I might find a truly rare and expensive one eventually. This web site has been a great help, thanks to all.

I reckon you've got to weed out about 95% of the stuff you see to find "good" items. Probably 99.7% to find outstanding. Educating the eyeball to quickly weed out the duds is a great help, but I've found gunshows to be too much to process properly, unless you accept that you're going to miss stuff. I just can't stand the sensory overload much anymore.

BTW, there were about 6000 1st Model .455s, and they were in their own serial number block starting with S/N 1 apparently. Several hundred 1st model frames were in the 2nd model S/N block, but I don't know if they were mfg. w/ the shrouded extractor rod type barrel. The 1st Models also generally didn't originally have a caliber marking on the barrel, so, that might explain the odd "45 AR" marks.

(Info from Supica and Naha's book, 3rd Ed. but I don't have it with me right now, so details are a little fuzzy.)

---------- Post added at 02:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------

Your finds to date have been quite good, BTW! They're odd enough to make them worth saving. I think your musket qualifies as rare, but don't worry about expensive- those end up either being transitory or annoying more often than not. Just decide what YOU like.

Thanks. I don't know if I find them or if they find me. It's all been fun though and doing the research is a good endeavor as well. I do agree the shows do a little overload but feel bad when I miss one( the local ones) which add up to 4-5 a year. if I traveled say 100 miles in any direction (except east of course) I could go to one every other week) no thanks.

I'm thinking it might be a 2nd model hand ejector frame, originally in .455, with a more modern .45ACP barrel added? I could be mistaken, but the bbl looks a little too short to be a real .455 first model barrel - no?

Claven; The BBl was shortened at both ends.

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Originally Posted by Claven2

I'm thinking it might be a 2nd model hand ejector frame

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The 2nd didn't have the heavy ejector shroud that this one has per the pictures I'm looking at(2010 Standard catalog of FIREARMS), and the triple lock is only on the 1st as the 2nd and 3rd did not have the triple lock but the heavy ej/shroud was reinstated with the 3rd model. Just an obsevation and a rare display of reading comprehension.

The clue that solves the barrel riddle is the oblong ejector rod lock the prtotudes from the front of the shroud. It's unique to triple locks.

AR Stands for .45 auto rimmed. I can post a pic of one if You need. It was a rimmed .45 ACP that was used in lieu of the half moon clips. Sells for about $100 a box, If You can find it.....

AR in this case also stands for "Ain't Real"- original to the gun as manufactured, that is. Post-conversion marking done after the cylinder rear was faced off.

So even though a 45 colt fits the cylinder it can't be fired in this gun, only the 45 AR that's $100 and hard to find and most likely made by elves or Elvis, or 45 ACP and the 1/2 moon clips. I just want to be able to inform a buyer of the situation if it ever arises.

Correct assesment, DaveN.

If the .45 ACP with 1/2 moons or full moons will fit and close , the back of the cylinder has been cut forward and the 45 Long Colt would have excessive headspace . If it will not close , then it may have been converted to 45LC. The 45 Autorim is rare and expensive because EVERYONE uses the full moon clips now , fastest reloads on the planet , cheep reloaders , and your brass stays in one easy to find and pick up clump . It's not really bad news unless he HAS to have 45LC.
Chris

.45 Colt and .45 Auto Rim. .45 Colt is one of the calibers that went through a name change. It was simply .45 Colt as there was never a .45 Short Colt, but over the years it became know as .45 Long Colt. Same for the Super .38, as over the years it was turned around and became .38 Super.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3144dft-1.jpg

No , there was a short colt , kinda sorta. Back in the wild west days the army adopted a break open revolver called the Schofield which used a round that was basicly a 45LC , but shorter. Because of this , the army issued it in place of 45LC because the Colt SA would take both. It was slightly less powerful than the old 45 Colt , and some perfered to have the more powerful loading. Anyway , because of Schofield being a mouthful , and needing a way to tell the two apart , the terms short and long were used. Not correct or official , but done. The Schofield was soon dropped and preaty much faded into history , but the " Long" tag remained. This might have been helped to continue being used because of the later use of the M1909 45LC and the M1911 45ACP during the same time period and both being connected to Colt.
Oh , and as an aside , did you know the 45 Colt , aka 45 Long Colt , and the 45 M1909 round are not the same ? The M1909 had a rim larger in diam. to make sure it wouldn't slip under the extractor star.
Chris

I've a box of M1909 ammo, somewhere, now that we've drifted off subject! (And a Colt to go with the rounds...) Worth a thread?

Show us a pic and get us started.

Gotta find 'em, first. They're not where I am. Give me a few days. I don't enjoy shooting it. New Service revolvers whack me right in the lower thumb joint at the palm due to my short fingers.

haven't even thought about it in several months!

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

No , there was a short colt , kinda sorta. Back in the wild west days the army adopted a break open revolver called the Schofield which used a round that was basicly a 45LC , but shorter. Because of this , the army issued it in place of 45LC because the Colt SA would take both. It was slightly less powerful than the old 45 Colt , and some perfered to have the more powerful loading. Anyway , because of Schofield being a mouthful , and needing a way to tell the two apart , the terms short and long were used. Not correct or official , but done. The Schofield was soon dropped and preaty much faded into history , but the " Long" tag remained. This might have been helped to continue being used because of the later use of the M1909 45LC and the M1911 45ACP during the same time period and both being connected to Colt.
Oh , and as an aside , did you know the 45 Colt , aka 45 Long Colt , and the 45 M1909 round are not the same ? The M1909 had a rim larger in diam. to make sure it wouldn't slip under the extractor star.
Chris

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No. The S&W cylinder was too short for the .45 cartridge used in the Colt SAA, which was known as the "Colt's Revolver, Cal. 45" A new cartridge was developed that would fire in both the Colt and Smith & Wesson, and was designated "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Cal. .45". From that time on, only the shortened version was manufactured by the military. The shortened version was also commercially marketed as the .45 Smith & Wesson, but not .45 Short Colt.
The Model of 1909 cartridge has a larger diameter rim for more positive ejection from the Model 1909 Cylinder. Did I know the .45 Colt and Model 1909 Cartridge are not the same?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../143kdvc-1.jpg

Johnny , you are correct. However , a few years ago someone posted copies of letters confirming how the name "Long Colt" came about , which information in a nutshell is what I posted. Years ago , when the other post was made , the term was thought to have come about because of the intro of the 45 ACP. His letters proved the term predated that and we ( or at least me ) were wrong.
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

Johnny , you are correct. However , a few years ago someone posted copies of letters confirming how the name "Long Colt" came about , which information in a nutshell is what I posted. Years ago , when the other post was made , the term was thought to have come about because of the intro of the 45 ACP. His letters proved the term predated that and we ( or at least me ) were wrong.
Chris

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The .45 ACP was introduced in 1905, and the box of Remington .45 Colt dates to the 1930's and the box of Western to the 1950's. Apparently there had been no confusion up to that time. I don't put a lot of stock into someone's opinion of something without some type of evidence to back it up, and it sounds like someone's opinion of there being a .45 Long Colt and a .45 Short Colt. If you ever get the chance to pick up "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Phil Sharpe be sure and get it. It has a lot of cartridges that have been obsolete for years. He has information on the .45 S&W and the .45 Colt, and their use by the military.
There was a .32 Long and .32 Short Colt, .38 Long and .38 Short Colt, and .41 Long and .41 Short Colt, but never a .45 Short Colt.
Any manufacturer is quick to jump on anything that will help them sell their product. The use of ".45 Long Colt" had become so prevalent that they seized the opportunity and renamed their product.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2yowf88-1.jpg

Not everybody has renamed the round. Last I looked, Remington still marks their boxes "45 Colt". I find "45 LC" used in conversation quite the annoyance, still, but folk just look confused when the gaffe is explained. So I quit trying!

so really unless you all look at this in person we don't know what it will send down range safely? Or could It be fired with 45ACP and full clips ,if I under stand as long as the cylinder closes correctly? Or should I look for the half moons at the gun show tomorrow? Or should I just sell it for a couple hundred to someone who knows what it is, not perfect, but historical, though in poor shape.

My honest assessment is to let it go. I have never seen a revolver that seriously modified. There had to be a really bad problem to set the barrel back, and who knows what all else has been done or why. Really nothing to gain by keeping it.

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Originally Posted by DaveN

so really unless you all look at this in person we don't know what it will send down range safely? Or could It be fired with 45ACP and full clips ,if I under stand as long as the cylinder closes correctly? Or should I look for the half moons at the gun show tomorrow? Or should I just sell it for a couple hundred to someone who knows what it is, not perfect, but historical, though in poor shape.

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Half or full moon clips will work w/ 45 ACP. Unless y'all want just a shooter grade triple lock, move it along. If it is functional, it might go for more than you might think! Triple locks make some folk weak at the knees. I don't have one, but one of these days...Heck, for 2 beans... Mpf! Don't tempt me!

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

Dang, Where would one find a barrel? Phooey! I'm a Smith junkie, and there's no cure!

Oh, BTW, found the 1909 Colt and ammo.

And... Here's some auto-rim.
How often do you see vintage component boxes?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0011-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0021-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0033-1.jpg
Someone loaded them before I found 'em, unfortunately.

Struck out at the gun show. Everyone wants something for nothing. Some thought I should keep it(it's not mine) for the history and all. It probably fought in two world wars for pete sake. But it is what it is, and I appreciate all and everyone's input on this pistol. With owners permission, could this be sold on this site(WTS) to someone who would give it a good home and what is a reasonable price considering the condition. I'm not desperate as I will just return it and it will just sit in a closet and who knows what.

I'm sure some of the men that posted here will PM you with an offer soon.

You can also use the sales forums here as well.

https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99

I've been looking for 45 AR. internet(intranet) and all the local gun shops just to see the availability and price. Scarce and expensive seems to be my lot in life. If my friend would have sold it for 200 (that seemed to be the best offer both at the show and elsewhere) I would have bought it myself. Even though it has been rebarreled and ???recylindered the triple lock is really cool. It seemed to lock up too much but I seem to have fixed it. The lock was not returning all the way and pushing the cyld release all the way back. Worked the lock
with oil and made sure every thing(extractor) was tight and whoa law works great now.

Let the record show that if my friend showed any reluctance at 200 but agreed I would have advised him not to sell it that low, even though it might not be worth much more in the condition it's in. I'm glad he took the bull by the horns and decided to keep it.

You never know, if I sell some stuff that I have on craigs list I may make him an offer he'll like. After all what are friends for.

As people have said, can often find these reamed to 45 Colt. I have one in 0.455 and one in 45 Colt. The 0.455 I reload for using 0.454 diameter heads made for the 45 Colt and 0.455 cases. The same heads (which are FP Lead and weigh 255 grains) if carefully loaded in 45 Colt cases, making certain that they do not overhang the cylinder and are low pressure Cowboy loadings, work very well. You can buy 0.45 AR cases from Remington or Starline, use the Lee 0.455 dies and these work extremely well in my cut Mk VI Webleys and the reamed Mk II referred to above. Dave_n

I began putting it through some test and as I was dry firing it it started to lock up. It seems the extractor rod nut ( I call it the hallow knurled barrel nut on forward end of rod, see pics)comes loose. It did it a couple of times and I would snug it up and it repeated so I unscrewed it and it only has half its threads in a half moon way. The other half is no where to be seen and it looks to have been broken for a long time. I've searched the net and have had no luck. I was considering buying it myself but when this occurred I had to see if it could be fixed with low expense and for now that seems to be a no. I'm glad the PM encouraged me to check it out more. It probably saved me a lot of $$$ and headache. To machine this part would be worth more than the piece itself.

If you can find a REGULAR extractor rod, you can use it, but it will have to be shortened as the one you have has been. Probably can use a 2nd model rod. (M1917, etc.) But, only if the gun can be had for the right price!