Wonky Enforcer engravings

Quite a lot has been said on this forum re the enforcer engravings which look a bit, well, wonky.

I was just flicking through my 7.62mm L42A1 Sniper, L39A1, 2A & Lee enfield conversions book by Ian Skennerton in the Small Arms Identification Series (as you do...) and happened across a picture of an Enforcer for reference purposes to show the receiver engraving. And lo - the engraving was wonky!

If my enforcer had such engraving I'd certainly be a bit heartened by this! Perhaps the fakery isn't as widespread as we might think. After all we'd hope that an enfield expert as eminent as Mr S would be right!

The enforcer in question (on page 12) was no 748 - and therefore so far as I'm aware was unissued and probably put together later - but food for thought in any case.

But was the engraving done at Enfield or later?

According to the sales ledgers 748 was not assembled / sold by Enfield. It is probably a Charnwood assembled one.

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Originally Posted by spinecracker

But was the engraving done at Enfield or later?

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Well surely charnwood didn't engrave them. After all if they had bought up the Enforcer actions but they were't Enforcer engraved, then they would be the sdame as all the other 7.62 target rifle etc rifles out there.

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

Well surely charnwood didn't engrave them. After all if they had bought up the Enforcer actions but they were't Enforcer engraved, then they would be the sdame as all the other 7.62 target rifle etc rifles out there.

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Someone out there has the means to mimic the Enfield engraving.....

I'm sure a number of people have copied engraving on Enfield receivers (both Enforcer & other variants), & I would concur with Thunderbox on this. However, I specifically spoke to Tony & Rob Hallam recently about these so called 'Charnwood Enforcers' that they are stated to have made/assembled. In fact, I was one of their customers at the time the whole episode was going on, but took little notice as Enforcers are a bit 'modern' for me! What they said was what I vaguely recollect being told at the time; that there were relatively few partially assembled (& engraved up) barrelled actions that they had bought in as a job lot & which they completed so as to make saleable. They could not remember exactly how many but we are talking perhaps only a couple of dozen tops; maybe not even that many. IIRC British Aerospace had taken over what had been Enfield & sold off a lot of 'junk' which included the Enforcer barrelled actions. However, Peter, Thunderbox, or other forummers may know more about the business/ecoomic wheeling & dealing that went on at the time.

ATB

There are 134 (one hundred and thirty four) Enforcer 'actions' that were produced and are unaccounted for in the Enfield sales ledgers.

From what I have been able to find out Charnwood was one of three or four 'dealers', (another was in Durham) who purchased the Enforcer bits & pieces.
The gunshop in Durham was recently (last couple of years or so) sold and the 'new' owner found a storeroom 'in the back' (which he didnt know was there) which contained around a dozen almost completed Enforcers + actions, barrels, woodwork, sights etc to build about a dozen more.

Thanks Alan. This would suggest that Charnwood didn't get all of the incomplete Enforcers, or if they did they sold some on 'as-is' for others to complete. However, if there is a deficit of 134 it would seem more likely (bearing in mind what I was told) that they only got a part of the batch, the others going elswhere.

I had three of the Enforcers assembled at Charnwood Ordnance including the last one produced, sn. 767. The markings were all original as far as I know. They were consistent and pretty much the same as an earlier, matching, former police rifle I have. The bolts weren't numbered on the Charwood assembled rifles which made them easily distiguishable from the complete rifles built at Enfield.

And returning to the original issue re the markings which have been called into question - do people think that the very late enforcer engravings may indeed have been a bit wonky? There have been quite a few posted on this forum, and as I mentioned in the op - even reproduced in reference books as examples.

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

And returning to the original issue re the markings which have been called into question - do people think that the very late enforcer engravings may indeed have been a bit wonky? There have been quite a few posted on this forum, and as I mentioned in the op - even reproduced in reference books as examples.

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Its not just the wonky engraving; most of the "wonky" Enforcers diverge in many of the minor detail features and marks found on undisputed early/low-number rifles. Wood markings, consistency between markings, finish on metal parts, positioning and alignment of front PF pad, forend fit, etc - small things add up when you compare the rifles side-by-side.

This whole Enforcer business is a puzzle.

The question of fakes in Enfields is in itself interesting but, with the large (genuine) production runs of most variants, resolving questions of fakery is often extremely difficult.

However, with the limited number of Enforcers (legit/illegit), and the fact that they are fairly recent, it ought to be easier to clarify a lot of the issues.

I suspect Peter considers Enforcers to be a form of lowlife of only passing interest :madsmile: but Mark Stevens has done a lot of research into them as has Alan de Enfield. Alan has mentioned producing a book on the subject - :sos:
Facts/suppositions on:-
Numbers ?
Assembled by ?
Destroyed and by ???
Supposedly destroyed but still in existence ??? - I think I have one
Sights ?
Scopes ?
Numbering ? with photos of types - to metal and wood
etc
etc

Comments Mark/Alan?

I imagine there might not be a better time or forum to help

John

Some, but not me you understand, have said that anything with that midlands connotation attached to it might be deemed to be a bit, er......., how do you say it in polite company......, er well, wonky - for want of a better word.

If anyone is going to write the whole story up someone at work could add a parts about the Police actual requirement at the time. And the need to keep the factory employed of course

Hi, I am new to this site and have Enforcer parts that have been in my stores for quite a few years. I believe some of these actions, barrels, wood work and other parts may (originally ) have come from Charnwood's ? These Enforcer parts were most probably going to be scrapped as they had little value. One of the actions originally from Longbranch and was labelled "not to be used". Some of the engravings are slightly off square and one has the "e" missing, so it reads "ENFORC R". A couple of the complete actions have matching numbered bolts and the X19T engraved on them, on the handle and bolt heads. I hope this info is of some use.

I'm sure we'd be interested to see pictures of said items crocket!

Enforcers and that 'midlands' connection. I just think that if anyone cleared out the old MG factory here in the 80's or so and was using the parts today to build MGB cars, then they'd be called, ........well, many things including stupid for building MGB's of all things! But whether the cars could be called genuine MGB's would be something else to ponder. The same with these Enforcers. I just have this feeling in my bones about the real factory jobs and those '...after market' look alikes that, well, er................ See what I mean

Think MGB GT V8's. The factory built 2,591. Outsiders used MGBGT bodies and built another few thousand.............Very nice, fast cruisers, bags of power, went like rocket sledges on rails but REAL MGB GT V8's................? Now think Non Enfield made Enforcers

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Originally Posted by crocket

Hi, I am new to this site and have Enforcer parts that have been in my stores for quite a few years. I believe some of these actions, barrels, wood work and other parts may (originally ) have come from Charnwood's ? These Enforcer parts were most probably going to be scrapped as they had little value. One of the actions originally from Longbranch and was labelled "not to be used". Some of the engravings are slightly off square and one has the "e" missing, so it reads "ENFORC R". A couple of the complete actions have matching numbered bolts and the X19T engraved on them, on the handle and bolt heads. I hope this info is of some use.

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Welcome Crocket - we have spoken many times re the Enforcer parts.
Did the Owner of the L39 you had on consignment ever decide on dropping the price to a Realistic level ? (If I remember it was the one marked 'CON' )

I thought this site was going to be a knowledge based thing, not a slanging match, over and out.

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Originally Posted by crocket

I thought this site was going to be a knowledge based thing, not a slanging match, over and out.

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You have provided me with some useful Enforcer information in the past - dont be too hasty in departing the forum as I'm sure there is more you can tell us as you 'clear out the back room' or Enforcer 'oddities'.

If I remember correctly this was your Longbranch Enforcer action ???


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN1824-1.jpg

THat was a bit harsh to all who have written on this thread Crockett........... Who has 'slagged' anyone off or am I in all my innocence, missing something? It IS a knowledge base as well as a discussion forum. The word FORUM should give it away. Fed up after two posts..........

Can anyone out there see what or who's upset anyone on this thread? Where's mild mannered diplomat Ed Horton when you need him

Come on then Crocket............. what upset you? We deserve an answer............................

Personally, I don't know what's so complicated about Enforcer production. There were 767 legitimate barreled actions produced. There are many who seem to make things so much more difficult that what they really are. As a good friend of mine likes to say: "maybe they ought to get out more". Enforcers were legitimate rifles built up to a certain serial number range at Enfield and purchased/issued to police forces in England. The receivers, bolts, forends and magazines are all numbered to match as are the Pecar telescopes as fitted at the factory. The rest of them, after that particular serial number which has been published here before, were assembled from original parts by Charnwood and apparently another commercial entity or two "after the fact". They are what they are. Parts rifles assembled after the fact. I've had a few of them and they don't have serial numbers on the bolts, forends or telescopes. They are the same thing but....... Enough said.

Still no answer from Crockett but plenty of PM's flying around.............. Are you going to tell us what's rocked your boat?