Lithgow No.6 Mk1 Jungle Carbine 'Experimental'

G'day all,

Brand new and have something handed down that may be of interest. I've got what seems to be an authentic Lithgow No.6 Mk1 Jungle Carbine 'Experimental'.

The serial number is XP142 and all numbers match. It's in very good condition but the bore is quite dirty and needs a good clean. I had it initially appraised at a local gun store today and they got quite excited about it and said they wanted their local Enfield expert to have a look, but ballpark they said it was worth several thousands for a true collector, very rare.

Not sure if I want to sell it yet as it's an heirloom but am open to offers. My grandfather who handed it down to me was a kittyhawk/spitfire fighterpilot in the war, he must have acquired it along the way somehwere.

Obviously people will want photos, happy to send them to whoever wants them(for some reason I can't attach them directly to this post?? Each time I select the attachments icon it just brings up a blank popup window? Am I just a dickhead?)

Interested to hear peoples comments, the research I've done suggests that they are quite rare and most are in museums these days, is this true?

If you want to email me your photos to badger@milsurps.com,I'll host and post them for you in this thread.....

In the meantime and with thanks to Advisory Panel member Son and member Lithy, check the article with a 66 pic photo montage in the Australia - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here).

Lithgow No.6 Mk1 and Mk1/1 Rifles (Mfg by SAF Lithgow) "Experimental" (click here)

Son and Lithy welcome any feedback and comments in this announcement thread, however, registered members may also add direct feedback and comments to the bottom of the article itself, which is a new feature recently added of the MKL.

Quote:

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Article Extract .....

Development of a shorter service rifle better suited to battle conditions in the jungles of SE Asia had been a consideration since early 1943. The initial direction was toward a full stocked model resulting in two lengths of prototype rifles, one of which finally seeing 100 examples made for trials. These were the Shortened Lightened (Intermediate) rifles, serialed XP1 to XP 100…… (continued)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd.../No6%20rhs.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/MTB_9225.jpg(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/MTB_9237.jpg

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The MKL also contains an excellent example of the 1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened & Lightened Rifle Serial # XP53 (click here) referred to in this new article.

Regards,
Doug

Wow, definitely extremely valuable if authenticated. Congratulations.

Thanks for the info, great reading and very interesting.

I just needed a bit more patience with the photo attachment, here are some for everybody to have a look. I've also posted them on the thread re: Enfield Holy Grail

Cheers.

Luke.

Yikes, what a find, congrats, something that connects you and your family directly to great aussie history and a valuable and rare item to boot. I'd never ever have that up for sale if it was me.
How about a couple of pics and s hooters report?
lol, you're fast, Ok, how about just a shooters report?

Cheers RJW, fascinating to find out all this, I had no idea what I had to be honest.

I'll get a shooters report(which I'm assuming is a written authentication) when I get it properly appraised in the next few days.

Watch this space.

Luke.

Bloody Hell. Nice score there. Don't let anyone talk you out of keeping it.

Luke if you decide to sell and you have your appraisal, please contact me. I'd be interested in your gun.

I'm in Brisbane.

Demo

Demo, you beat me too it. Luke who you getting to do the appraisal, sorry which gun shop are you going through, I forget the name of the shop but it is on the main street up there. If it is most probably be Bruce a member of this forum Bruce_in_OZ.

Myles

Check 'Australian Arms Auctions'

There was one avaliable at the recent auction Lot #522
you can check the price yourself.

There would be no way I would part with this rifle if I came across it the way you have.

G'day Myles,

Mate it's through Shoesmith Firearms on Ruthven st. They didn't call today, I'll have to ring them tomorrow. Probably is Bruce, I'll wait and see.

I've spoken to Demo and he's probably going to have a look at it but mate you're more than welcome to also.

As I said to Demo I may well consider letting it go for the right price, I don't want to be greedy but I'm certainly not going to let myself get stooged out of a fair and reasonable price for this heirloom. I've done a considerable amount of research on the net since I became aware of the rare nature of the rifle and have educated myself a little more appropriately.

PM me if you'd like my number.

Cheers,

Luke

Yeah it will be Bruce, unless they are using someone else now. You could PM him. Thanks Luke, but I am only dreaming. I will leave it to Andrew (Demo) is a serious collector and protector of our Lithgow hertitage. Did your grandfather fly for 77sqn in Port Morseby.

No worries mate.

Yeah I believe so, actually 75 Sqn I think. His name was George Hubert Newbourne (Digger) Shiells. He ended up an Air Vice Marshal on retirement, got a couple of kills supposedly. He didn't like to talk about it much but I remember one car ride I went on with him as a young fella where he just spontaneously started telling me some unbelievable war stories that will stay with me forever.

Funny I now work in the Solomon Islands and have been looking at all these old war relics of late, just amazing. I've also been to PNG several years ago with the military and saw some old B17 wrecks.

Take care mate.

Luke

I wouldn´t sell it either. Why not just wrap it up in a brown paper parcel and send it off to me ? (pm me for the address)

PS
Has it got a bayo??

hah hah, no worries Villiers-done!

No bayonet I'm afraid but it does have the original oiler.

Are you a German or do you just live there? We're from German descent supposedly.(Meissner sounds pretty f**kin German to me!)

Have a good one.

Luke

Check the Commercial Auctions & Gossip Forum (click here). It provides coverage and feedback on some of the more interesting items that were sold at the Poulins and James Julia Auctions (March 7-11, 2008) and Poulins and James Julia Auctions October 3-7, 2008.

We were fortunate enough to have our own Roving Reporter on the ground at these auctions, to examine and handle items up close and provide his opinion and analysis on some of the more interesting pieces that sold, such as a British No. 1 MK VI SMLE, Trials No.5 .22lr, Australian Experimental Rifle No. 6 Mk I and an Enfield No.1 Mark III* (Cutaway)

It appears that the same questionable LSA 1916 SMLE MK III sniper that was sold for $4,600 U.S. at the last Poulin's auction, March 7,8,9, 2008, was offered again and sold once again for $2,050 U.S. Review the pics and collector analysis in order to draw your own conclusions. The Australian No.6 Mk1 went for $700, but there's more to that story in the pics and the analysis as well. Finally, there's also some excellent pics of the No.1 Mk1 commercial SMLE that sold for $2,100 U.S.

Posts appearing in those auction threads …

Auction Thread (Oct 2008) - No. 1 MK VI SMLE Bolt Action Rifle. Cal. 303 Brit. S# A0277 - Sold for $700 U.S.. Note: This post also has some observations and comments about authenticity by Advisory Panel Member "Lance".

Auction Thread (March 2008) - No. 6 MK I Bolt Action Carbine. Cal. 303. S# 0A44 - Sold for $6,700 U.S.. Note: This post also has some observations and comments about authenticity by Advisory Panel Member "Son".

Regards,
Doug

Just to add the obvious to those comments... The receiver which bears no serial number from the sequence, also has a "sold out of service" mark on the receiver ring. The same pic shows evidence of tool marks on the barrel knox.

G'day Doug,

Thanks for those links, mine hasn't had any modifications made to it I don't believe like the one that went for $700 and in my opinion is in better nick than the one that sold for $6,700. The bore however is probably more like the one that went for $700, poor to fair, although the boys at the gunshop reckon that can be cleaned up pretty well.

Cheers mate,

Luke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lmeissner1

hah hah, no worries Villiers-done!

No bayonet I'm afraid but it does have the original oiler.

Are you a German or do you just live there? We're from German descent supposedly.(Meissner sounds pretty f**kin German to me!)

Have a good one.

Luke

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Yes ... my last boss was called Meissner! But no, I´m a Brit but suppose it´s ok to say I´m English ... now that all the others are on the point of b*ggering off.

I do like your Oz No. 5. In fact I fancy most kinds of short carbine and have just (reluctantly) sold off my Mauser Gebirgsjäger 33/40.

Patrick

Saw the title to this and had to look. Absolutely fantastic rifle, I'd be hard pressed to sell it. Congrats!

By shooters report I meant for you to go to the range and tell us how much fun it was to shoot.
What squadron did your grandfather fly with? There's more than a few fans here of that history. Did he fly with killer Caldwell in the defence of Darwin?

Mate - for a lot of us here... you now own the Holy Grail :bow:
And I, like many, would want to buy it from you as it would go great with my other 6 Jungle Carbines. But seriously ... I would hang onto it. :thup:

Hey RJW,

Forgive my ignorance, I have shot it before in fact and she kicked pretty hard but my accuracy was fairly crap from memory. Probably much more to do with my shooting prowess than anything else.

I rang my dear old mum tonight about my granfather and she's sending me all the info she's got on his career etc so I'll post some pertinent points/docs as and when I get them to hand if you're interested. I remember seeing a transcript of all the different aircraft types he'd flown and it was about 80!!( He wasn't endorsed on all these obviously but it's still a staggering number)

Killer Caldwell rang a bell with mum but she couldn't say for sure. She also thinks that he might have flown with Kingsford-Smith at some point(possibly an instructor of his)? We'll have to wait and see. Unfortunately by the time I was old enough to really start to enquire about his career he croaked, as kids we were always told to shy away from asking him about it because it'd always be 'Hey Grandpa how many Japs did ya kill?" Somebody in the family got his logbooks and we're trying to track them down also.

More to follow I spose,

Luke.

---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

May well hang onto it mate, dunno yet. I had a look at your collection there Troy, pretty impressive.

Take it easy,

Luke.

As a No6 owner i would say do not sell, be mindful we are only the minders for a short time. When it is time to sell for what ever reason put it up for auction unless you want to pass it direct to another minder to keep in Australia keeping in mind they could capitilize it out immediately.

There's always the risk of a buyer immediately selling a rifle like that to cashed- up overseas interests. Keeping that in mind, the rifle really has two distinct values- the realistic value to a collector, or even a dealer that needs to be able to on-sell with some mark-up, and the price it might reach at auction. I've been keeping a bit of a book for a few years on the prices realised by some of the "high end" stuff both at auction here and overseas and private sales that I get told about.
The last 18 months or so we have seen items like this reach a peak, and now are settling towards what most would consider to be the realistic prices. What is the difference in the market causing this? I would say that there is less "new collector/ speculator" money about for them, so the competition between those who get caught up in the whole auction hype is reduced and maybe even a little reserved in their willingness to spend. Blame the global economic situation... Just recently there were a few holy grails not reach the low end of their expected sale range (possibly they didn't actually get a bid!) and were passed in well below figures that were easily exceeded twelve months ago. Is this the end of the "crazy money" type values? maybe so... but there will always be a collectors market here, willing to pay the realistic prices and keep it in Aus>

Good post Son, i fully agree with your observations. Especially the "crazy money" comment.

Cheers Michael.

Hi Luke, just as a slight aside to the lithgow story, in the late 80's I made a full size repro of killer Caldwells spitfire Vc and ended up speaking with the man himself to research the paint scheme. sharp as a tack and full of Darwin war stories like it happened yesterday, I believe after the war he owned womens lingere shops, which I thought was either a completely mystifying career change or completely in character for a fighter pilot. I didn't ask him to clarify, lol, had to have some respect, and some fear too, probably still throw a good right hook.

Hah hah, womens lingerie, sounds about right for those fighter jocks! Helicopter pilots are the real deal mate, we open *****houses after flyings over. I must correct myself also, my grandfather retired as an Air Commodore not an Air Vice Marshal.

That's great that you got to meet Killer himself, nice work.

Take care mate.

Roger, what else do you expect from an Aussie.