Info needed on a German Luger

Hey guys, I have this german luger, and I was wondering if any of the experts around here could tell me anything about it, or tell me where to go to find more information. I guess the thing I want to know most of all is what caliber because I'm dying to shoot it. A 9mm won't chamber all the way and a .380 is too short for the magazine. I've taken it to 2 gunsmiths and they didn't have any other ideas. One person at a gun show suggested a 380 kurtz because the length is somewhere between those two rounds, but I'm thinking there's got to be a better way than guessing and checking.

Did you try the .30 Luger cartridge?

Lugers were generally made for 9mm Para (Luger) AND 7.75 Para (luger). Both use the same magazine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by villiers

Lugers were generally made for 9mm Para (Luger) AND 7.75 Para (luger). Both use the same magazine.

---

I´m sure you meant the 7.65 caliber.

Looks like a post WWI commercial, and as noted probably a 7.65mm.

A little info on DWM
DWM Luger History and Index
A little info on .30 Luger round
7.65×21mm Parabellum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sounds like finding the right ammo has prevented firing the Damn gun.

Thanks, good info. I'll read those links tomorrow instead of working. I mean, during my breaks ...

Johnny, what makes you think that its post ww1 commercial? Serial number or the markings or what?

Here you go Hoss and they are in Texas
30 LUGER : Ammunition To Go

Those 2 gunsmiths sure don't know anything about Lugers.
Your pistol is a 1920 commercial. These were made in both 9mm & 7.65 (30 Luger) I'm surprised it does not have Germany stamped on the left side.
Looks like it has had a lot of use over the years.
Sarge

Typical (for me). YES! (If I only get one thing worng in a message, it´s considered a sussess).

Have just finished re-loading 200 of the b*ggers that I´d filled with rifle powder by mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoss

Johnny, what makes you think that its post ww1 commercial? Serial number or the markings or what?

---

The serial number with letter suffix and better pictures would help determine exactly what it is.

In Jan Still's book "Weimar Lugers", he clears up some of the confusion on the "1920 Commercial" and "1923 Commercial". The 1923 Commercial was actually a continuation of the serial number range used prior to WWI, and continued with the resumption of production following WWI, and was produced from about 1919 to 1921. When the commercial serial numbers reached the 92000 range, the method of serial numbering the commercials changed to the military style with a letter suffix. In 1921 the serial numbers began in the 2000i serial number range, and was given the 1920 Commercial name by collectors. The i letter suffix was applied just as if the letter suffix had been used from the beginning of commercial production in 1900 (1 - 9999 no suffix, 1 - 9999a, 1 - 9999b and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge13

Those 2 gunsmiths sure don't know anything about Lugers.
Your pistol is a 1920 commercial. These were made in both 9mm & 7.65 (30 Luger) I'm surprised it does not have Germany stamped on the left side.
Looks like it has had a lot of use over the years.
Sarge

---

The first one admitted he did not know much about them. He was the gunsmith at the range. He might have even said it was the first one he'd seen. Though my memory is fuzzy, we might have been talking about the stoeger luger .22 when he said that which wasn't firing reliably. The second one was a fan of military arms and knew enough that he told me it could be fired without the frame, and he said he thought it was probably a pre-war export. But he still couldn't say for sure what caliber it was. It does have Germany stamped on the right side. Its not clear in that picture, but if you know where to look you can tell something is stamped there. Why is that important, and what would it mean if it were stamped on the left as well?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

The serial number with letter suffix and better pictures would help determine exactly what it is.

In Jan Still's book "Weimar Lugers", he clears up some of the confusion on the "1920 Commercial" and "1923 Commercial". The 1923 Commercial was actually a continuation of the serial number range used prior to WWI, and continued with the resumption of production following WWI, and was produced from about 1919 to 1921. When the commercial serial numbers reached the 92000 range, the method of serial numbering the commercials changed to the military style with a letter suffix. In 1921 the serial numbers began in the 2000i serial number range, and was given the 1920 Commercial name by collectors. The i letter suffix was applied just as if the letter suffix had been used from the beginning of commercial production in 1900 (1 - 9999 no suffix, 1 - 9999a, 1 - 9999b and so on.

---

I'd be happy to give better pictures, what exactly do you want to see? I don't see any letters in the serial number. One thing I'm wondering about is the 53 on top of the gun. It looks kinda like 55 in that picture, but that's because of the flash and the fancy font I think. But does the buggared up 5 indicate anything is amiss?

The better picture of the right side shows the GERMANY export mark, and another of the front of the receiver showing the serial number location would help. If it has a letter suffix, the letter will not be in the serial number, but under it.

By front of the receiver, do you mean the underside, like right in front of the trigger guard? I tried to take a couple from that angle but they all turned out blurry. I'll try again tonight. Was the shot of the "germany" mark in my last post good enough or were you asking for a better one? Actually, if you have an example handy of what you mean it would make it easier. Otherwise when I get home, I'll just look wing it and try to get a shot of every mark that looks like its supposed to be there.

The front of the frame, not the trigger guard. This is where the serial number is stamped.

Under the barrel on the front there should be a mark telling us what the actual bore diameter is...

The bore gage marking is on the barrel right under the serial number. This one is 8,82 mm.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/oh8wue-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Under the barrel on the front there should be a mark telling us what the actual bore diameter is...

---

Well, that would be pretty awesome. But as you can see, there are no markings on my barrel. I also don't see any suffix to the serial number.

I looked around for any other markings. When I disassembled it, I found another 53 on the trigger, and a mark I can't make out on the underside of the slide. Its something you wouldn't see unless you took it apart. It looks sort of like an I or an E, or it might not be a letter at all.

So does any of that mean anything?

So Johnny, with no bbl mwrkings, does that indicate a replacement barrel? I would think the Germans would mark even a replacement with the bore diameter?

After seeing the other pictures I tend to believe the pistol was rebuilt in a shop outside DWM following WWI, and sold commercially. It appears that the pistol may have been scrubbed of all markings other than the DWM logo, and renumbered. The pistol has no proof or acceptance marks that I can see, and since the barrel has no serial number, it could have been changed after the pistol was sold commercially.

That doesn't make it illegal does it? What you're saying sounds a little like an altered serial number.

I think that Johhny Peppers has basically got it. I am not a Luger expert, so I cannot participate in esoteric discussions of marking fashions. But I have handled, refurbished and fired what must by now be a 3-figure number of German weapons, and within the limits of that experience the sheer lack of markings is a sure sign that it has been messed around with. As is overstamping of a number in the same place - this usually indicates forced matching. Officially renumbered parts were lined out and the new number applied separately, not overstamped. But as they say, never say never...

And yes, fitting a barrel to a system without a number being stamped on it was and still is illegal. In Germany, the chambered barrel is regarded as the prime active component, so no number = highly suspect.

As to the bore diameter, surely it is quite simple to stick a 9mm bullet in the muzzle, twiddle it around, and measure the diameter of the bright line that the muzzle will rub on the nose of the bullet?

Apart from the various 9mm chamberings, readers should be aware that Lugers have been made in Germany for 9mm gas cartridges. These have a slightly reduced case diameter compered with 9mm Luger - for safety reasons, so that a live 9mm round cannot be chambered. Maybe someone has been creative here, with a gas pistol and recycled genuine Luger components?

Patrick
:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoss

That doesn't make it illegal does it? What you're saying sounds a little like an altered serial number.

---

It would not be illegal in the U.S. Bear in mind that it is speculation on my part about the markings, but I see no other reason it doesn't have a proof mark. Normally the receiver, barrel, and breech block show a proof mark. Also, altering a firearm's serial number was made illegal in the U.S. by the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, and your pistol would have preceded this date. I have never seen that exact font used to serial number a DWM Luger, and while most gun shops would have a set of number stamps, it should be rare to have a set of letter stamps in lower case script. The numbering of the front toggle also looks really bad with repeated strikes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

As to the bore diameter, surely it is quite simple to stick a 9mm bullet in the muzzle, twiddle it around, and measure the diameter of the bright line that the muzzle will rub on the nose of the bullet?

---

I'm probably going to sound like a noob here, but sounding like a noob is a lot better than making a mistake and firing the wrong ammo.

Is it really that simple? How accurate does the measurement have to be? Unless I had calipers or a micrometer, I don't think I could get a very accurate reading this way, and if I had calipers, I wouldn't need to mess around with sticking a bullet into the muzzle. There are a lot of cartridges that are just a tiny bit off on the diameter but are completely different rounds. Heck there are plenty that actually have the same diameter and are still completely different rounds. I always figured the bores widened a little with use too. Maybe this will work because lugers were only made in a few specific calibers? So if it comes out somewhere close to 7.62mm i can be fairly certain I've got a 30 luger? What are the other possibilities? Do you measure a bore from groove to groove, or land to land?

After WWI, during the depression, a large number of DWM Lugers and parts were "appropriated" by workers at the factory. Parts were also looted from the bombed out factory in Berlin after WWII. This resulted in a large number of unmarked guns that were later attributed to illegal Luger production in Germany in avoidance of Allied control during the inter-war period.

Simple really if you have access to some different cartridges. 9mm won't chamber. The bullet won't fit in the muzzle. 30 Luger will both. 30 Mauser will fit at the muzzle but not the chamber. There are only so many it can possibly be.

Lotsa good info, I find myself thanking almost everyone. I have acquired a half a box of 30 luger rounds that belonged to the same guy. (mother in law didn't think the box with the ammo and loose parts was important?) I think I'm going to the range this weekend to try them out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoss

How accurate does the measurement have to be? Unless I had calipers or a micrometer, I don't think I could get a very accurate reading this way, and if I had calipers, I wouldn't need to mess around with sticking a bullet into the muzzle.

---

True!

But measuring by inserting caliper jaws into a muzzle is very tricky, since
a) the curvature of the wall tends to produce a smaller reading, because the caliper jaws have a finite thickness, and
b) if the bore has an even number of grooves, you may measure groove or bore diameter, so you have to make more than one measurement at different positions, to see which is which, and
c) if the bore has an uneven number of grooves, you don't know where you are. So you can actually make a pretty good measurement of the diameter at the muzzle with the "twiddled bullet" method.
More importantly, if the muzzle is badly worn and has become bell-mouthed, then
d) calipers produce a falsely optimistic result, because of the jaws contacting further down the muzzle, where the wear is not so great.

Anyway, whichever method you use, it is accurate enough to let you identify the nominal bore size!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoss

There are a lot of cartridges that are just a tiny bit off on the diameter but are completely different rounds. Heck there are plenty that actually have the same diameter and are still completely different rounds. I always figured the bores widened a little with use too. Maybe this will work because lugers were only made in a few specific calibers?

---

Exactly! - It's good enough for that! And, btw, bores are usually measured land-to-land, but the caliber designations are often inconsistent - e.g. .303 British has the bore(land) diameter, whereas .308 Win has the groove diameter. Metric calibers are usually (if I write "always", someone is bound to find an exception!) bore x case length - e.g 7.62x51 (7.62mm = .300")

Patrick
:wave:

You have what is commonly called a parts gun. There are thousands of them in the states. Check out the attached link and you may be able to source the frame and some of the parts. Johnny is correct it has been scrubbed some time way back. After removing the slide assembly look down in the frame behind the main spring for more numbers and proofs that will help sort things out. Note that even parts gun Lugers can be tack drivers and a blast to shoot.

Remove side and bolt/toggle. Oil chamber and fist inch of barrel. Put tight bore patch in barrel one half inch in front of chamber. Stand barrel on muzzle. Pour melted candle wax in chamber. Let cool and tap it out with cleaning rod. It will have shrank some but will be close enough for you to tell if it is 9mm or 30 Luger and will not cost you anything.

http://www.worldoflugers.com/index.htm

If you now have a 7.65mm and a 9mm cartridge, a visual inspection will tell you everything you need to know about which caliber it is. If it is 7.65mm (.30 Luger), the bullet will go into the muzzle as shown in the first photograph. The second round is a 9mm, and it won't come close to going into the muzzle as shown in the second photograph.
The only round you could get into trouble with is the 9mmKurz also known as the .380 ACP. It won't quite chamber in the 7.65mm chamber, but it is so close that the bullet could be driven back in the case if one is chambered by letting the toggle assembly go rather than easing it down.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/imtn6g-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/al5i5c-1.jpg

Great info, thanks all. The 30 luger round did fit exactly as shown in that top picture. I went to the range this weekend so I decided to try firing it. It really was surprisingly accurate, and I didn't see any indications from the brass that I was using the wrong bullets. The only problem was that it misfed every single shot. I'm going to see if I can find a gunsmith familiar with Lugers to take a look at it. From what I've gathered about lugers, they are kind of picky about their magazines. So it could be that, or it could just be a weak spring. It might even be bad ammo since the box I had was of unknown age. I had the empty brass stovepipe most of the time, but I also had the next round get jammed instead of feeding and twice had the action not go all the way down (where I just needed to tap the top to get it to fire).