Is the the 19T Poof Mark Military or Civillian?
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Is the the 19T Poof Mark Military or Civillian?
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As far as I am concerned, it is military - as is the later 20T but I've got my steel helmet on and await incoming mortar fire........................!
But if it is in dispute............ I'll wait for the rest of the replies
Hi Simon ... :)
You might want to try the Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner below the words "Advanced Search". For example, in your case, type in the words 19t and see what happens .. ;)
I only had a quick look, so I'm not sure what the exact content is about, however, it turned up a number of threads.
Regards,
Doug
I always thought military as done during proof at Enfield.
It's also on the bolts in both the 1971 and 1979 L42A1 sniper rifles shown in the MKL ...
1971 L42A1 Enfield Sniper Rifle (click here)
1971 L42A1 Enfield Sniper Rifle (featured here)
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
1979 L42A1 Enfield Sniper Rifle (not the one featured here)
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
Regards,
Doug
If you put the bolthead on a rifle in a commercial context you would need to get it proved all over again at one of the Proof Houses (who will do it at 20 tons now)
Unless you put it onto a shotgun bolt....... or would you?
Yes, you would. Any change of pressure bearing parts like that requires reproof (unless you keep it yourself and don't transfer it to anyone else).
I just took in a bunch of .303 No4s and one of them had London proofs on the Bolt, Barrel & Action but the bolt head had the 19T proof mark with no other visible Proof house marks.
I might keep this one as the Serial No is PF 303###, I tend to keep 303 related items.
3 Enforcers and 2 Envoys plus spare bolt head all have the "19T" proof mark.
L39A1 has 19T
I assume that "19T" was simply the convergence of civilian and military proof sometime in the 1950s/60s.
"19T" would have been the new UK civilian proof introduced at the time of the adoption of the 7.62x51mm rounds as NATO/UK standard around 1955, and i expect that Enfield later came to an arrangement with the proof houses so that it could carry out proof and mark its own rifles in-house. I expect that L1A1s were also proofed & marked "in house" at the factories, as its hard to see how London & Birmingham could have coped with c.500,000 rifles to test in just a few years.
It would be interesting to find an early example of a 7.62mm civilian proof from the 1950s. AFAIK, large numbers of civilian rifles only started appearing in 7.62mm when the Enfield barrels became available in the late 1960s/ early 70s - ie when all those club P14 conversions were made.
I have seen an Envoy recently with only the 19T Proof on the barrel, action, bolt & bolt head, there were no other London or Birmingham Proof Marks,
Apart from the "Ring-8" or "8-Ball" marking, was there anything else to distinguish the Number 4s which were approved for use with the Mark VIII ammunition?
Or is this a really dumb question?
.
That mark is not from either of the two English Proof houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P
If the commercial Envoy's and Enforcers are proofed with the UK Military 19T mark then surely someone at Enfield is guilty of selling or 'otherwise disposing....' of unproofed weapons. On the other hand, if the UK MoD 19T mark is acceptable then why isn't the older crossed flags mark
Just my take on things especially as the UK Police forces and commercial Envoy shooters don't come under the UK MoD proof exemption.
It would make any subsequent prosecution VERY difficult or pretty well unsustainable.............
I have just checked my own Envoy it only has the 19T marks no other proof markings except on the barrel which is a crown over ER over cross pennants over P.
My Enforcer only has 19T marks.
The L42s both have Birmingham Proof Marks
IIRC, the Primary legislation refers only to the two Proof Houses (Gunmakers & Brmingham).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I would guess that Enfield would claim Crown Immunity (the Law of the land doesn't count) when selling to Police Forces. Whether or not they were correct in doing so, in my opinion, that would not be the case if a Police Force sold the rifles on. In other words those rifles would NOT be in Proof and anyone selling them would be guilty of an offence.
However if the Constabularies that did this also claim Crown Immunity (it would be tougher for them than for Enfield), then the dealers who sold them on could be guilty of an offence. As would anyone in the UK who currently holds one. If it has not be Proofed in London or Birmingham, it is not in proof.
My L42A1 is stamped 19T on the receiver and bolt handle but not on the bolt head. Is this something to worry about ?
Ah, yes......... Crown immunity. It ended many years ago! You might remember that anyone even remotely connected to 'the crown' or even the Government claimed to be immune from, well..........., anything. Including the famous case that eventually got the ruling overturned of the rancid (was it Plymouth?) hospital food that killed some patients and even they claimed immunity. But not for long!
The loss of Crown Immunity was also one of the factors that ensured that the elderly L42's - that had already had their lives extended by a further 80% again in the 70's - were only to be disposed of offshore
We're going into mission creep mode now............
Worst thing they ever did, ending that Crown immunity.
Correct me if I am wrong but my reading of the proof act of 1868 says that it is an offence to "sell, offer for sale, transfer, export or pawn an unproofed firearm, with certain exceptions for military organisations"Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
It does not appear to be an offence to "receive" an un-proofed firearm.
It would appear to me that the dealer would be guilty but the recipient innocent (until such time as they came to sell it)
It is not illegal to own an unproofed firearm and it can be 'gifted' (no money changes hands / no sale has taken place)
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......... On the one hand we have 'transferred' which appears to be unlawful and on the other ' gifted' which is legal. Surely, we can't have it both ways........ Or can we?
Worst thing they ever did Mk7........... Not much fun if you were dying in hospital from being served rancid food with the hospital authorities saying that the hygiene rules didn't affect them because they were Crown Servants or were claiming Crown Immunity. Just my take on things.
The offence is committed by the seller, not the buyer.
It cannot be gifted because that is 'effecting the transfer' of an unproved arm.
So how were military firearms proofed? The two proof houses can barely cope with the current tiny UK commercial trade, let alone production runs of hundreds of thousands of military rifles. Enfield (and other government factories) must have had proof facilities in order to mark up weapons with crossed pennants and other military proof marks, and so it stands to reason that, at some point, military proof was converged with civilian proof. Modern L85s carry a civilian-compatible proof, and they were never run through Birmingham/London. Perhaps the 19T was simply the first jointly-recognised standard?
Ok, while you guys were discussing the merits or not of proofing, you blew right by my legitimate question so I will ask again:
My L42A1 is stamped 19T on the body and on the bolt but not the bolt head. Is this something to worry about ? And before anybody asks, yes it does have the correct 7.62x51 extractor.
It sounds like the bolt head has been replaced. No physical risk to worry about, but its always nice to check that the bolt head has been selected and fitted correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie
The Government factories had their own proof facilities on site, as did BSA and Sterling although quite what you are 'proofing' in a blow-back SMG with no positive locking is a matter of conjecture. The first Enfield made SA80's were MoD proofed on site but from Nottingham manufacture onwards they were commercially proofed at the MoD site. Bren barrels made at CRD in Cornwall were MoD proofed at a facility built at the site
There is no MoD proof for small arms now. They all go through the commercial proof house
(duplicate post, for some reason)
Thank you Thunderbox, I thought I had read that somewhere but wanted to be sure !
Charlie, Did your L42 have a red splotch of paint on the barrel to denote that one of the usually proofed components was a replacement? I had an L42 with a replacement bolt body that didn't have the 19T proof and it was so marked.
Brian, no red paint, or traces of any.
Correct, in terms of one has to move the firearm on. Indeed I have a perfectly legal unproofed rifle myself. (Acquired in Switzerland.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I thought that I had implied that the current owner sells the rifle. My original post, for clarity, should really say: "As would anyone in the UK who currently holds one and sells it on."
Thanks - you were posting this as I was talking to the Birmingham proof house. They have confirmed as follows :Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
The Proof Acts lay down that no small arm may be sold, exchanged or exported, exposed or kept for sale or exchange or pawned unless and until it has been fully proved and duly marked. The Maximum penalty is £5000 for each offence, but with provision for higher penalties where, for instance, the sale of a number of guns constitutes one offence. Alteration to or the forging of proof marks is a more serious offence.
The offence in dealing in unproved arms is committed by the seller, not by an unwitting purchaser.
So, on that basis, I wonder how many (if any) people in the UK have Enforcers that only have Enfield Proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
Probably none that will admit to it and risk the £5000 fine when they sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
There will be hundreds of Enforcer, Envoy and presumably L39 owners whose rifles are only 19T military proofed
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Do I get a fine?
Not even if you tried to sell you rifle in the UK. It has perfectly valid Gunmakers (London) Proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by newbieDAN