19T Proof Mark

[newbieDAN]

L39A1 has 19T

[Thunderbox]

I assume that "19T" was simply the convergence of civilian and military proof sometime in the 1950s/60s.

"19T" would have been the new UK civilian proof introduced at the time of the adoption of the 7.62x51mm rounds as NATO/UK standard around 1955, and i expect that Enfield later came to an arrangement with the proof houses so that it could carry out proof and mark its own rifles in-house. I expect that L1A1s were also proofed & marked "in house" at the factories, as its hard to see how London & Birmingham could have coped with c.500,000 rifles to test in just a few years.

It would be interesting to find an early example of a 7.62mm civilian proof from the 1950s. AFAIK, large numbers of civilian rifles only started appearing in 7.62mm when the Enfield barrels became available in the late 1960s/ early 70s - ie when all those club P14 conversions were made.

[Simon P]

I have seen an Envoy recently with only the 19T Proof on the barrel, action, bolt & bolt head, there were no other London or Birmingham Proof Marks,

[smellie]

Apart from the "Ring-8" or "8-Ball" marking, was there anything else to distinguish the Number 4s which were approved for use with the Mark VIII ammunition?

Or is this a really dumb question?
.

[Beerhunter]

Is the the 19T Poof Mark Military or Civillian?

That mark is not from either of the two English Proof houses.

[Peter Laidler]

If the commercial Envoy's and Enforcers are proofed with the UK Military 19T mark then surely someone at Enfield is guilty of selling or 'otherwise disposing....' of unproofed weapons. On the other hand, if the UK MoD 19T mark is acceptable then why isn't the older crossed flags mark

Just my take on things especially as the UK Police forces and commercial Envoy shooters don't come under the UK MoD proof exemption.

It would make any subsequent prosecution VERY difficult or pretty well unsustainable.............

[Simon P]

I have just checked my own Envoy it only has the 19T marks no other proof markings except on the barrel which is a crown over ER over cross pennants over P.

My Enforcer only has 19T marks.

The L42s both have Birmingham Proof Marks

[Beerhunter]

If the commercial Envoy's and Enforcers are proofed with the UK Military 19T mark then surely someone at Enfield is guilty of selling or 'otherwise disposing....' of unproofed weapons. On the other hand, if the UK MoD 19T mark is acceptable then why isn't the older crossed flags mark

Just my take on things especially as the UK Police forces and commercial Envoy shooters don't come under the UK MoD proof exemption.

It would make any subsequent prosecution VERY difficult or pretty well unsustainable.............

IIRC, the Primary legislation refers only to the two Proof Houses (Gunmakers & Brmingham).

I would guess that Enfield would claim Crown Immunity (the Law of the land doesn't count) when selling to Police Forces. Whether or not they were correct in doing so, in my opinion, that would not be the case if a Police Force sold the rifles on. In other words those rifles would NOT be in Proof and anyone selling them would be guilty of an offence.

However if the Constabularies that did this also claim Crown Immunity (it would be tougher for them than for Enfield), then the dealers who sold them on could be guilty of an offence. As would anyone in the UK who currently holds one. If it has not be Proofed in London or Birmingham, it is not in proof.

[Charlie]

My L42A1 is stamped 19T on the receiver and bolt handle but not on the bolt head. Is this something to worry about ?

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes......... Crown immunity. It ended many years ago! You might remember that anyone even remotely connected to 'the crown' or even the Government claimed to be immune from, well..........., anything. Including the famous case that eventually got the ruling overturned of the rancid (was it Plymouth?) hospital food that killed some patients and even they claimed immunity. But not for long!

The loss of Crown Immunity was also one of the factors that ensured that the elderly L42's - that had already had their lives extended by a further 80% again in the 70's - were only to be disposed of offshore

We're going into mission creep mode now............