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What is the purpose of plunking down $1000 for an AR in .22LR? Don't get me wrong, I have some nice .22 cal rifles in semi automatic that are fun to shoot so I guess if you have the bucks it would be something to have for sure. In need of enlightenment.
No. I'd get the CMMG insert and give'er. I've had both dedicated uppers and just the inserts, (CMMG, Atchisson) and I think it's just fine to have the insert. More to the point. Less space required for storage.
I thought the 22 rim fire inserts work the best in 1X12 twist barrels ? unless you have a 1X14 barrel !
For training or practice without the cost of .223.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
A dedicated upper will have the proper twist barrel so it will most likely be more accurate that the drop-in kits.
First, you don't need to spend $1000 to get a .22 AR.
Second, great for training.
Third, cheap ammo.
Next question?
:thup::thup:
I never understood "training" with a .22. Training for what? .223 and .22 are vastly different rounds that perform vastly different. If its just to understand the fundamentals of what happens when you squeeze the trigger then fine I guess. But I've always thought its a little like using a water ballon sling shot for mortar training. No offense all, to each their own.
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I'm here to tell you people for a fact the myth about not being able to use your insert in 1/9, 1/7 twist barrels is just that. A proverication. I've personally used the CMMG insert in all these twists and it works fine. It doesn't need 1/12. Besides .22 is actually 1/16 twist isn't it? I don't use ultra fast ammo, whatever Walmart has on special, and it works fine with accuracy.
I'm not sure what a dedicated .22lr AR goes for in Canada but $1000 is way to much here in the states. For around $550-650 you can get one of the top tier manufactured rifles. About the same price as building a standard AR here. You can get a upper only for $300-500 that will fit your existing lower and takes seconds to switch. I'm planning to get an upper for one of my guns and then build the dedcated lower for it.
Most of the dedicated rifles and upper receivers I've seen are in the 1/16 twist rate that works best for .22lr. The conversion kits originally designed for the early military rifles with the 1/12 twist rifling for the .55gr 5.56mm NATO. Not a lot of difference there. While the .22lr offerings will fire out of a .223 barrel of any twist rate they simply fly better and more accurately out of a dedicated .22lr barrel. If one twist rate worked for all .22 caliber barrels we wouldn't need 1/12, 1/9, 1/8, and 1/7 barrels for the different bullet weights of military 5.56 rifles.
Bottom line for me is that I can put 500 .22lr practice round downrange for the price of 50 rounds of 5.56mm and do it with a platform that is similar to my military rifle. It is also great for new shooters who like the coolness of the AR rifle and they can learn it without ever developing a flinch from the .22lr.
And if you neglect the fundamentals the rest doesn't much matter then, does it? In actual fact, due to the low recoil of the 5,56, the .22lr experience isn't that much different. The rimfire's lower velocity means that follow through on each round is more important. Simulated distant targets are easy to fashion due to the faster drop of the rimfire, so learning hold overs or sight changes becomes more natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
AND, if you run a suppressor, then the rimfire makes for even more realistic training. Put a fake can on the .22 rf to mimic the handling characteristics and noise signature of the suppressed "real" thing.
I have plenty of places around me that I can fire .22 LR without any problem, but the places I can shoot .223 are very limited. That, plus I find the .22 LR very enjoyable.
There is quite a range of steel inserts available if you only need a few shots, I have used the 22 rim fire in the AR-15. Also have used the 32 acp and 32 S&W in 30-06 and 303 cals
Buy it now for $600.00 and they can be had a lot cheaper.
Colt UMAREX AR-15 type M4 Carbine M4 A3 .22 lr NEW : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com
Others have said it and I will reiterate, great training tool for LEOs. They function near 100% of the originals, hold the same weight as the originals and are a grip cheaper to shoot.
The S&W version doesn't look as much like an M4, but the controls are closer to an actual AR than the Colt/Umarex. I think I like a dedicated upper for training about the best. Keeps the lower exactly as when it's being run full bore. No lead deposits in odd places in the full bore upper.
Makes good sense to have a dedicated upper. We had dedicated Simunition uppers for our tactical AR rifles. Very nice, two pins and a sling point and you had a great training Sim rifle. We had the uppers painted lime green. Not pretty but obvious at a glance :D Real obvious! :eek:
They are all 22 caliber.....:lol: In all seriousness. I wouldn't, ever. Some say to train on. My opinion is you should train with what you are going to fight with, no matter how similar they are. That's simply my opinion everyone has one. The other is their cheap to shoot. My take on that. So is a bb gun.
Love the banter ( I think thats the term I'm looking for) this has me thinking thoughts, you know the ones that coinside with a reduction in ones bank account. I to recently found a love of shooting a .22 LR rifle. It would be fun on a AR platform.
My opinion if you are not married to the AR platform, Sig 522. Mine is 100% reliable with bulk pack ammo and 100% a blast to shoot! Fold the stock up and it stores in a small area.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
That's EXACTLY what I mean. That's why the military stopped "training" with .22's after WWII. Turns out .22 was nothing at all like 30-06. Huh. Imagine that. Having said that piece of sarcasm ; ) ........ .22's are loads of fun and of course cheap to shoot. But I can pick up a nice Winchester for a fraction of the price of something on an AR platform. I guess if you absolutely love all things .22 then go for it! Lord knows I've spent more money on things that I'm sure I would be ridiculed for. Like my cat sweater collection. Kidding.... Kidding.....Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryB08
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You guys crack me up! I actual qualified expert in 78 at lackland basic with a AR 15 in.22 cal. Did I mention it was January the temp 15 degrees wind chill. Oh did I forget to mentiion at the time I had only fired a BB gun up to that point. That .22
Made me look good so I see why they would use them.
I wonder what they did with all those Milsurps when the USAF were done with them?
if you shoot three gun , you might want a cheap practice round - not everyone is training for battle , and those of us that do are not all well enough off to shoot 223 for practice , and still have enough to shoot the meets and competitions ,
i shoot a ceinar in my carbine and have a $300 dedicated upper for my 20" rifle , both are matched as close as i can get equipment wise ,
and i shoot a kimber conversion on my kimber TLE II ,
also - i just really like 22LR
Not ALL of the site members live in areas that ALLOW centre-fire semi-auto rifles!
Quite a few folk in the UK have AR15's - but they are made as single shot: no gas tube/piston system - have to be manually cycled for each round - similar to a traditional bolt action.
A .22 upper/dedicated rifle IS allowed here
And in a country who brought us the SMLE.I feel for you folks. Coming to a country near you! Makes me think of a quote from William Wallace (or Mel Gibson) FREEEEDOMMMMM!Quote:
Originally Posted by saddler
So you qualified expert on shooting a 22. Would that have helped you if you would have had to go to combat right after? Oh I guess they could have handed you a ballistic chart. ;)
PS Thank you for your service.
I'm starting to wonder how long we have until we have those same gun law's. If people are not noticing our liberties dwindling away, well then their blind
the Air Force is smart they send their officers out to fight and they don't us M-16s. They have a slightly larger caliber found. BTW I was Army.
Lackland was the giveaway for the Air Force.
And Dumb!Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryB08
Let stay on-topic and off politics, please.
Bob
I suppose I learned how to aim and how the AR worked and how to hit a man shaped target at 100yds in really cold weather. But to fulfill a DOD requirement is all it was good for.Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryB08
I guess Lackland was Army at one time and I'm not sure what you mean by slightly larger caliber found? I lived off base and shared a house with 4 soldiers from FT Carson, Co. This AF firefighter was an Ulta light sleeper and those Grunts could sleep through an artillery barrage I'm just saying. I'm still in touch with one after 30 years. Good times good memory's.Quote:
Originally Posted by gijills
It just saddens me to hear the Aussies and Britts lament their loss of freedom and I applaud their pursuit of the hobby in spite of the burden. I did not know I was anywhere close to violating the rules. Sorry.
Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhetzer
Color me stupid here, but don't the armed forces now train with blanks and "laser tag" gear strapped to their rifles? Never mind simulators like F.A.T.S. And if you confuse the ballistic curve of a .22 with a 5,56, 9mm, or .45, you aren't apt to to do well in other training scenarios either...Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryB08
I believe one major reason I won so many matches at Ft. Benning was partly due to the mass quantities of .22rf rounds I sent downrange before the matches. Transitioning between calbers is probably beneficial, as the rimfire lets you run to the ragged edge of sight reaquistion. When forced to allow for the longer recovery time of the larger caliber, it feels like you have all the time in the world to get a good sight picture whilst riding the rifle down back onto the target.
Well said JM , your up late or early as the case may be, any way thanks for your comments and insight. Your probably right the forces do alot of simulation now a days. Like it or not I think we have some well trained troops. May they all stay safe.
[QUOTE=jmoore;213512]Color me stupid here, but don't the armed forces now train with blanks and "laser tag" gear strapped to their rifles? Never mind simulators like F.A.T.S. And if you confuse the ballistic curve of a .22 with a 5,56, 9mm, or .45, you aren't apt to to do well in other training scenarios either...
No, we don't use "laser tag" gear for training anyone marksmanship. The purpose of the simulators is to teach basic familiarity and handling. They are intended to teach folks who have never handled a weapon before the basic principles. Blanks are used to make a training scenario more realistic and beats yelling "bang". Like when doing convoy training for example. The purpose is to teach tactics involving the convoy, not marksmanship. For weapons qualifications and practical marksmanship we still use good old live ammunition and a range.
I'm just a firm believer in the proven theory that you train with what use, and use what you train with. I find that the simulators are better trainers and more practical than training with a .22. I never thought I would say that but the technology has come far enough that even though it's not a live fire situation, the ballistics are at least on par with a real M4 or M16. Don't get me wrong, there is and never will be a substitute for live fire on a range, but compared to training with a .22 I think the simulators make more sense.
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I enjoy shooting regularly with my 22lr conversions. It's quick and easy to pull the bolt and carrier out of an upper and insert the conversion kit. The conversion allows me to shoot 22lr in my surplus M16A1, M16A2, M4, and Commando uppers, and I doubt I could ever wear a barrel out shooting 22lr through it. I generally shoot cheap bulk pack ammo, and the occasional dud round gives you practice with malfunctions as well. I used a mix of 22lr and 5.56 to build my marksmanship skills and proficiency before heading to SC for Army pre-deployment training for Sailors last year.
Keep your head down. Thank you for your service and GO NAVY!
Thanks - I deployed in FEB 2011 and returned home from Afghanistan just in time for Christmas last year - it's great to be home, and back to the Navy! I haven't been online much lately - just updated my profile to reflect my return!Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
Welcome Home.Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyEngineer
NavyEngineer, what do you do for the Navy?
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"Love the banter ( I think thats the term I'm looking for) this has me thinking thoughts, you know the ones that coinside with a reduction in ones bank account. I to recently found a love of shooting a .22 LR rifle. It would be fun on a AR platform. "
and in the end thats where i am at - im not getting younger and im enjoying the 22cal more , i also know where i can harvest dinner or breakfast with it tonight/tommorrow , and the optics dont hurt with these aging eyes
I use a Compass Lake .22 upper practicing for matches. I bought a S&W AR15-22 because a neighbor lady wanted to learn how to shoot an AR15.
First, it's important to separate the intended usage of a RF AR. There is plinking, and there is serious practice/competition.
For plinking there is the conversion units that use the CF barrel and substitute a RF conversion unit for the BCG.
There is also dedicated uppers and complete weapons that are designed to be relatively inexpensive for informal use. No match sights, barrel, float tube etc. The polymer S&W offering is a good example.
Then there is the Compass Lake and Accuracy Speaks uppers that are designed for serious practice for the High Power competitor. These have match quality barrels, float tubes, 1/4 minute sights, etc. to be as close as possible to the shooters CF upper. Their intended purpose is to allow one to shoot with the CF lower so the trigger is the same one used for CF. You get match grade accuracy so your practice gives relevant feedback, unlike a plinker grade upper that won't. You therefore save wear and tear on your CF barrel, the cost of CF ammo, and if you can safely shoot RF at or near your house, you save the drive time/gas to go to a safe CF range.
I built a CLE upper myself for $650 back in 2006 and shoot it monthly at a local club that hosts a RF version of a High power match at reduced distance with reduced targets. I made a tutorial back then and posted it on another forum. If there is interest, I can post it here.
I bought the Colt (mfg by Walther) M4 Carbine because I have four Grandchildren ranging in age from 5 to 16 to teach Firearms Safety, Maintenance and anything else they need to know. Using .223 would be cost prohibitive. When I am comfortable with their level of competence I have an M4 style AR for them to step up to. Not a lot of thought required. They look the same, work the same save for the (Bullet Button), have 10rd magazines. Makes perfect sense to me.
Training.
The S&W model is $400, and works exactly like a real AR except for the BCG. Unlike the Colt.
One of the big factors is IF you purchase the correct "AR style" .22 it is not restricted and you can actually take it to somewhere other than a approved range to shoot.
I have a friend that just bought one for around $600.00 and we are taking it out for the first time today. Holy crap, as I was writing this he called and backed out...has to cut the lawn. In reality he is just "whipped"... LOL and luckily won't read this as he doesn't frequent this forum.
Oh well my son and I will still go and he will possibly take his S&W 15/22 which unfortunately is restricted. That's another dumb classification, guess it has a lower that is "too similar" to a real AR. : (
Ammo is cheap and any day shooting is a great day.
Training ..... Exactly. I'm not concerned about the oldest Grandson, but the youngest will be the challenge. I want him to be really comfortable and completely understand how everything works. I think someone that young can absorb the familiarity thing faster practicing with something that looks and feels exactly like the real thing, than playing with a video game console like all his friends. Just my .02.
The expensive .22 cal uppers are intended for practice on the National Match course of fire, not plinking.
I have one of the .22 cal match AR-15 service configurations uppers which I have on a fully tuned lower with match trigger, weights etc. Fired with the wolf “extra” match ammunition or S&K Match, it very closely simulates the weight and feel of the full up match tuned AR15. The scores I fire with it are compatible with those scores I used to fire in the full course of fire (I have been inactive the past few years).
There are three reasons for buying one of these rifles if you are a serious NM service rifle competitor:
1) Expense: The mid level ammunition that allows equivalent accuracy at 50/100 yards to the full 5.56 caliber rifle is a lot less money per shot, less than half actually (reloads). 5,000 rounds of wolf extra match is around 670 dollars or ~13.4 cents per shot, 5.56 match using sierra 77 grain match bullets (excluding the price of brass and reloading equipment) is about 29 cents per shot. With brass, wastage, lube, cleaning media and test loadings the real cost per practice/match round fired is well over 30 cents a round. If you compare firing 3,000 rounds of full bore ammunition against 1,500 rounds of full bore and 2,000 of .22 caliber ammunition you will end up saving a bit of money, which will pay for the upper in less than 4 years of use. If you shoot some cheaper ammunition at 25 yard and 50 ft ranges where the added expense of .22 rimfire match ammunition is not required, you can pay for itself in less then 3 years of use.
2) Ability to shoot more: There are two aspects to this. First is the fact that I can shoot in my backyard and not disturb anyone with standard velocity ammunition, I could not do that with full caliber ammunition. Even if you cannot do that if your neighbors are too close, there are many small bore winter leagues and places you can go shoot small bore that you cannot shot full bore, especially in the dark of winter.
Second most competitive riflemen load their own ammunition and are quite anal about it. Much of the winter’s months are spent doing this. The time to load 1500 to 2,000 rounds of top quality ammunition each year becomes a real pain and takes a lot of time, if one includes the load development and quality testing required. The less ammunition you have to load, the more you can go during those winter months and work on your shooting.
3) Superior training tool (most important). Most competitive shooters do not have a personnel coach to help us train. We must do it all. Without the .22 upper, we have two training tools: a) dryfire and b) firing live ammunition. Most competitive riflemen do both, with many having a ration of dry fired rounds to real rounds at around 2/1. I used to say that the matches were where I tested the techniques I learned in dry fire.
Unfortunately dry fire has its limits. One of the biggest during the winter months is the inability to keep training with the same degree of attention that one brings to bear when actually shooting. That is where the .22 cal rifle comes in. It adds a third intermediary tool, as most riflemen will tell you that the .22 cal rifle is harder to fire well then the full bore rifle. This is primarily due to the longer barrel time, which is about 2.7 to 2.8 times longer then with the full caliber 5.56 rifle. Small errors of follow through that will barely show up with the full bore rifle most definitely show up with the .22 caliber rifle. This means it is very useful practice to use the small bore rifle, to let the shooter detect errors that will not be discovered in either dry fire or fullbore practice. Having this third training tool is of great value to the shooter who is trying to figure out those last errors which make the difference between shooting a 490 and a 495.
In my case I found two areas to improve that I had not detected in years of practice: offhand follow through and consistency of butt placement in my shoulder in the prone stage. While the time required to break down my position and figure out what small errors were causing me to put shots out beyond my call was very frustrating, I was rewarded with ultimately higher scores in real matches.
Though I have not done it I am told by fellows that shoot these conversions at 200 yard matches that the 200 yard matches are close to equivalent to something like shooting at 700 to 800 yards with the full bore rife in terms of having to watch the wind.
Finally, you will not wear out a .22 cal match rifle in 10,000 or even 30,000 rounds of ammunition firing RWA, S&K, Wolf or other brands used by service rifle shooters. The rifles will outlast most owners, or at least their service rifle careers. A well maintained upper would not only same the shooter money, but can be sold to another competitive shooter when done for at least 2/3 of the purchase price.
I really like your thinking. I just want the kids to be aware and to know how things work. Even though I have a PS3 and play Battlefield 3, when they are here they read books, watch movies. No video games If down the road they are interested in going further I have lots of toys they can go further with. Thanks for your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
Just because! I have a S&W M&P 15 AND a S&W M&P15-22. 2 Guns, no parts to misplace or lose. Also have a Colt Frontier Scout in 22 and one in 22mag. More guns is more better!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
I have never been a fan of the .22LR ..... until I picked up a set of 1970's .22Lr semi auto rifles,one Winchester 190 and a Ted Williams 3T. took them out to see if the worked and what fun they were to shoot. To use the AR in .22 would be more fun I'm sure. thanks to all for the great comments it's been informative.
I have two dedicated 22 AR upper's --- for my Rock River lower's. The match grade hammers will break after every 3,000 rounds using the dedicated ceiner and probably the Tactical Solutions bolts --- so you probably need to use mill-spec hammers and extra power hammer springs for proper detonation.
I've had major problems, especially with the Tactical Solutions upper. That is.... premature detonation of a 22 L.R. round, during a empty shell casing stovepipe, causing the rear sides of the shell casing too burst and a bullet squib load stuck in the barrel.
Tactical Solutions, sent me a tougher extractor ---- but the problem still exists.
The other dedicated upper --- a Model "1" from Texas --- has given me bulged rear 22 lr cases, and squib loads.
Conversion units are dangerous, if you allow 22 lr soot to accumulate so bad, that when you shoot a 223 cleaner round thru it --- will possibly crack the the bolt and break the charging handle in half; after detonation.
Maybe you should clean your guns once in a while then...Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
That appears to be a problem you have in isolation. I've never even heard of that one before...Good one!
I really like YOUR thinking! Books, now there is a novel idea! Your Grandkids are lucky to have you as a Grandfather. They will cherish the memories of time spent with you forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by langss
The converson problem did not happen too me, since I only use dedicated 22 AR upper's. I read about the problem in a gun magazine, along with the pictures of the cracked bolt and charging handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Sorry... but I can't give you a source.
Well thank you. I noticed early on that parking the kids in front of the TV seemed the easy way out and it was not that way for me. So I give them all kinds of books to look at / read. They my not understand what they are looking at(the younger one's) but they don't want to disappoint. The older boy he is hungry for anything I teach him, so knowing at 16(in today's world) how different firearms work and how to disassemble, clean, reassemble make's him very happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
if you want something cheaper to fire than a .223 (5.56x45mm) look into buying an upper chambered in 5.45x39mm which fit in the standard .223 Mags, was comparing the price on bulk ammo and 5.45 was $100-$200 cheaper depending on brandQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
Just to be clear, the .22 Walther now has well over 5000 through it of all different types/brands and only a few of any type/brand generally had a problem. The kids are having a blast and so far the most expensive part has been feeding them, not the .22.
Those of you who don't think the .22 is "relevant", what do you think of dry fire? Have enough money (or Dept. Money) to shoot everything live and real time? Congratulations - but that's not most of us.
Subcaliber shooting should be at least as good as dry fire, and that does very well indeed. Years ago a small rifle team in South America did not have the money for full practice with live ammo, so they did a lot of dry firing. At the Olympics,, they took Silver, despite not having all "live" ammo. Sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through - all the same. CC
I'm reminded of the story of a friend of an instructor I had. He was an Army sergeant on their rifle team who was an Olympic shooter. On one rotation for the two years leading up to the Olympics when he was expecting to be assigned to Camp Perry, he was assigned instead to a Hawaiian base that was far from any shooting range. Nevertheless, he was determined to compete in the next Olympics. For those two years he would go home every night, go into his bedroom, and run through the entire shooting match as a dry run, including shooting a tie breaker. That was a two-hour rehearsal every night staring at a dot on the wall and envisioning his aim and the results. He arrived at the next Olympic qualifications not having fired a shot for two years. He zeroed his rifle and dived in. In competition his main opponent emerged and appeared to be superior to him. In the scoring system of the time, competitors shot a couple of extra rounds in the last round in case there was a tie. Our sergeant followed through on his rehearsals and shot his tie-breakers with the same discipline as the rest of the match. Seeing how far ahead he appeared to be, his opponent shot the tie breakers casually. In the end, the sergeant's discipline made the difference and he beat the other shooter by the strength of his tie-breaker shots. He made the Olympic team and went on to medal. All on two years of dry firing.
Bob
I saw a special on TV a long time ago that used basket ball as the experiment. A group of people shot hoops with a basket ball and a group practiced shooting hoops without the ball, just going through all the motions of lining up and form. The two groups were nearly equal in ability. I thought that quite interesting.
Yes dry fire is very effective, but after 15 tears you become sloppy. The simple fact is once you are older the discipline and high level of interest that young men have is hard to maintain. Adding the .22 cal rifle to the mix really does help with both motivation and to detect small errors that will adversely effect your performance with the service rifle.
i agree with browningautorifle if you do what he is saying you now have two guns in one so you can train with your ar for $15 with 550 rounds of .22 this is what i would do if i had a ar-15
I can step out my back door to the small pistol range we have and shoot .22lr all day if I want. If I tried that with a center fire rifle including the .223 if my wife didn't complain first the neighbors surly would.
Aside from my earlier Posts, the "Just 'cuz" is the reason for this one:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0b368f67-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...93ca615e-1.jpg
No practical reason at all!
:thup:
No more Matty Mattel! :madsmile:
Bob
Sweet! I remember in the late 80s, someone was marketing wood stock sets for the AR15. I think they were made in the Philippines, or someplace like that. Saw an AR15 wearing a set at a gunshow one time. Was very cool, but WAY expensive stuff.
Springfield Armory Inc. was one, I think. Missed out on a stock and handguards about ten years ago and haven't seen any since.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
+1 on that one " just for looks " , im like'in the wood
I have a ceiner 22LR conversion and it works fine and is fun to shoot. Get lots of looks with a go faster switch on.