GEW 88 Enigma

I picked up this rifle some time ago at a local auction and thought it was about time I tried to find out more about it as something of a enigma. All of the metal work looks brand new and I don't mean just refinished, apart from a couple of very small dents on the barrel jacket the metal work shows no sign of use or wear there are no scratches or marks on any of the surfaces that you would expect to show them. A refinished rifle restores the colour but can't hide the wear marks that you would normally find.
Now comes the odd part the woodwork is far from pristine and has all the dinks bumps and bruises that you would expect in a rifle of this age.
My first thought was that it could be a "parts" rifle but I dismissed this as all of the parts with the exception of the bolt are numbered either 20 or 29 and that includes the woodwork, even the screws are numbered.
Now comes the really odd part there is no manufacturer ID anywhere on the rifle, there are Styer marks on the woodwork but nothing at all on the metal work. There are numerous proof and acceptance marks on the barrel action and other items all of which are German according to the "Standard Directory of Proof Marks".
The bolt face is also completely "open" the shoulders that would normally found on a Gew 88 bolt are missing, it was sold as a 7.92 calibre but any interpretation of the proof marks ect to confirm that would be appreciated.
I have taken pictures of every mark on the rifle and would appreciate any help at all in finding out how this rifle came to be.Attachment 32347Attachment 32365Attachment 32366Attachment 32367Attachment 32368Attachment 32369Attachment 32370Attachment 32371Attachment 32372Attachment 32373Attachment 32374Attachment 32375Attachment 32376Attachment 32377Attachment 32378Attachment 32379Attachment 32364Attachment 32363Attachment 32348Attachment 32349Attachment 32350Attachment 32351Attachment 32352Attachment 32353Attachment 32354Attachment 32355Attachment 32356Attachment 32357Attachment 32358Attachment 32359Attachment 32360Attachment 32361Attachment 32362Attachment 32380

That looks like nitro proofing.... Commercial 88? You're right, overall, it doesn't LOOK reblued, and it if was, it was done a long time ago by someone who knew what they were doing. I have seen some rifles like this where the metal is great but the wood is a bit more dinged up and my guess is that it was an arsenal queen and bounced around a workshop or maybe in transport, or something not on the frontlines with minimal use but that's just a theory.

Also, receivers were originally in the white unless they had been upgraded and refinished in the 88/05 conversion.... interesting

Receiver ground smooth? Perhaps, but done years back. Nice and interesting find.

Receivers left the factory in the white, so it's definitely been worked on at some point.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff050-2.jpg

Having the bolt head's face milled flat certainly throws up a red flag.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Receivers left the factory in the white, so it's definitely been worked on at some point.
Having the bolt head's face milled flat certainly throws up a red flag.

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Thanks for the thoughts, but the reciever definatly has not been ground as it lines up perfectly with the barrel sleeve contour, the only mark of any description on the reciever ring is the "20" with a corrisponding "20" next to it on the barrel sleeve. I realise that the milled face of the bolt is different but what do you mean by a "red flag"? I will take some more pictures of the reciever to show what I mean about the finish being uniform.

First thought would be caliber change to a rimmed cartridge. But then you would have a single shot, as the clips would no longer work. I've heard rumors that some '88/'14s had the bottom of the bolt face cut away for "controlled round feeding", but have yet to actually see one.

Could it possibly be converted to 8,15x46R?

I think that without support on the left side of the bolt head, ejection may be unreliable with the usual 7,92x57/8mm Mauser as the case rim will slip out from under the extractor as the bolt is retracted.

ETA: Oops, never mind! the bolt is inverted in the last photo! Now I have no idea what their intention was...

You need a photo just like Jmoore has posted. We should know if it was ground smooth.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

You need a photo just like Jmoore has posted. We should know if it was ground smooth

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I have taken another set of photos of the assembled rifle, you will see that not only is the colour uniform accross all of the metal work but so are the machining lines. Would a commercial rifle have a maker's name on the action? and if was a commercial rifle why go to the extent of putting numbers on all of the parts including the screws and leave off the makers name?:confused:
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In the 1920's, WW greener converted a LOT of Gew98's to .303Br spotters with (odd) .303 feed mechanisms. With its vertical box and the flush bolt, it's possible this rifle has been re-barelled or re-chambered similarly by the post-WW1 British gun trade.

I would definitely have the chamber cerrosafe cast to determine what it is presently chambered in. I really doubt it's still 8x57J.

I think Claven2 has got it nearly right.

But

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Originally Posted by jmoore

First thought would be caliber change to a rimmed cartridge.

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is, I think, the correct answer.

1) Dings on wood but none on metal = metal has been refinished. I am quite sure about this, as I have such a rifle in my possession!

2) Shoulders have been ground off the bolt = chambering alteration, at the very least to a rimmed cartridge. But not .303 - the bore would be far too loose, and it looks as if it is an original German barrel, if not necessarily the original barrel.

The simplest explanation is that it may have been modified for 8x57 IR - the rimmed version of the 8x57 I used for break-top hunting rifles. Please note I not IS - in other words the original Gew.88 bore/groove dimensions. So .323 bullets would be too fat - you need the .318 diameter.
Dimensions and load info for the 8x57IR can be found in the Dynamit Nobel Wiederladen - the "blue book".

Simple test: see if an 8x57 case can be chambered. If so, QED*. Well, almost, but please note that there is also an 8x57 IRS - the rimmed version of the later 8x57IS.

Safety note 1
In this case, you MUST slug the bore.
Bore/groove 7.80 / 8.07 mm = original "I" bore
Bore / groove 7,92 / 8,20 = "IS" bore

Safety note 2
The rimmed versions of 8x57 I and 8x57 IS have much a lower Pmax than the rimless versions.
857 I - 3800 bar
8x57 IR - 3200 bar
8x57IS - 3900 bar
8x57 IRS - 3300 bar

So please do NOT try any K98 loads in this old action! Before someone writes in to point out that the rifle was originally made for the 3800 bar of the 8x57 I: yes, I have worked that out myself, but the reworking of the bolt means that the weak point is likely to be the base of the cartridge.

:wave:
Patrick

*8x57 cases are too wide at the shoulder to fit into a .303 chamber. And a touch too long. But with worn military chambers one is never quite sure, and I have seen a 308 pushed into a 30-06 chamber - which should also be impossible. So Claven2's recommendation to make a chamber cast is sound advice.

Other choices seem to include the 8x60 (rimmed or no) and 8x65(? not quite remembering the exact length just now) which also came rimmed or no in both bore sizes.

The front sight certainly isn't "issue"! And I definitely concur that it's a reblue. Probably post WWII.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

) Dings on wood but none on metal = metal has been refinished. I am quite sure about this, as I have such a rifle in my possession!

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Many thanks for the advice Patrick it will be acted on. You say you have a similar rifle in your possession does the action have an arsenal mark or is it blank like mine? I really would love to find out where this rifle was built and the reason if any why it is unmarked. Did any of the arsenal's produce unmarked rifles?:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You say you have a similar rifle in your possession does the action have an arsenal mark or is it blank like mine?

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Two similar/relevant cases, but not the same.

Case 1) Schultz & Larsen M69 match rifle. Heavy 6.5x55 S&L barrel on an original Gew.98 action. No. 39xx with no series letter. I.e. first series of that year. All parts matching. Even the follower has a Prussian proof mark and the last two figures of the number. Refinished (parkerized) by S&L. All number, stamps etc clear, as on the Gew88. But no trace of the original crest/arsenal mark+date on the barrel ring. So, if done professionally, it is possible to refinish a rifle so that you cannot see any traces of the origin marks. Like the Gew.88 in this thread.

Case 2) M1896 Swedish Mauser / Carl Gustaf production, also in 6,5x55. Dinged wood, but professional refinishing of the metal. The giveaway (as in the case of the Gew.88) is the discrepancy between the wear/scratches etc on the wood and the metal.

I do not think that arsenals, like Amberg or Danzig, produced "unlabelled" actions. Arsenal rifles were part of military procurement, and apart from possible "lunchbox specials", were marked accordingly. But Mauser itself certainly did produce commercial actions for hunting rifles. In the case of the Gew.88 in this thread, I still thinky that it was a normal military rifle that was simply converted to a rimmed case for use by a hunter, and the simplest conversion would have been to the 8x57 IR. Although, as jmoore points out, other chambering are conceivable. We will all know a bit more if the chamber is cast and the bore measured as suggested in my previous contribution.

:wave:
Patrick

Sooooooooo... whatever was the resolution?

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Originally Posted by Story

Sooooooooo... whatever was the resolution?

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Still ongoing with my research whatever it turns out to be it will have to go to the proof house as it has no proof marks that I can find, I will post results when I eventually get them. Thanks for your interest.

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Still ongoing with my research whatever it turns out to be it will have to go to the proof house as it has no proof marks that I can find,

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Oh yes it has! Take a very close look at the root of the bolt handle, where the number is stamped. That looks like a crown over BNP - in other words, it has been proofed in the UK in recent times!

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Oh yes it has! Take a very close look at the root of the bolt handle, where the number is stamped. That looks like a crown over BNP - in other words, it has been proofed in the UK in recent times

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Well spotted you are quite right but the rifle itself does not have any legal proof marks and as I understand it it will have to go through proof as a complete assembly and then marked as such.

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer

but the rifle itself does not have any legal proof marks and as I understand it it will have to go through proof as a complete assembly and then marked as such.

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Sad but true!

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Originally Posted by Story

Sooooooooo... whatever was the resolution?

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Yes there is... at long last the mystery has been solved, well in part at least. I think that the general conclusion that the metal work has been refinished is correct, done to a very high standard and probably a long time ago. The real odd ball was the bolt / calibre and this was resolved when we realised that the wrong bolt head was fitted, this rifle was bought at auction and was probably assembled with the wrong part to make it look presentable. Many thanks to Phil Rose for all the work in solving the problem and getting the correct bolt head from the States and doing the necessary work to get it through the proof house.
What was the end result 7.92 x 57mm now head spaced, proofed and ready to go. Many thanks to all for there input, sorry its taken so long to get to the end.:cheers:

Thanks for the final report. This puzzling stops the grey cells from rusting up!