I was toying with $1,000.00..

I've been watching this one since it first popped up the auction site. Actually exchanged emails between British and NZ Museums re the stock markings. I essentinally determined marking were likely (repeat likely) legit.

I also requested additional photos (closeups) but no response. A request for a 3 day "No Shoot - No Disassembly" was replied to in a somewhat tepid "Maybe" response from the seller.

I am not "Flaming" the seller in any way. Based on the info above I was prepared to bid $1,000.00 for the rifle. The final bid was somewhat higher and I'm happy for the seller & winning bidder:thup:

My budget was what it was based on the info I had on the auction and responses received from the seller.

Nevertheless..a very interesting rifle IMO..:cheers:

U.S. Remington Model 1903 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

this wll make you even more sick..about 10 years ago, a guy walked into the Colorardo Gun Collectors gunshow, with one in the plastic bag, redstripe, ect..he wanted 400.00
said they made hime open the bag in security..sheesh..yes., i went up and gave security a what for..
sad to say, at the time, i had waaaay to many 1903,s and passed on the rifle, said he had a few more new in the plastic bags at home, all just like it,,Remingtons, Redstripes ect..10 years ago,.they werent as hot as they are now...

The bidding stayed in the $700-750 range for several days and raised my interest. However, I already have a Red Star with no grasping grooves and I have other interests (and not much money).

The rifle on the auction was one of those sold through the Red Star gunshop and was one of those rifles discussed in the article that John Beard and I wrote a few years ago. It was one of the 200 imported to this country in the mid-1950s and has no import markings. At $1552.00 it was still a good deal. Had it stayed in the $750-1000 range it would have been a steal!!

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Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

The bidding stayed in the $700-750 range for several days and raised my interest. However, I already have a Red Star with no grasping grooves and I have other interests (and not much money).

The rifle on the auction was one of those sold through the Red Star gunshop and was one of those rifles discussed in the article that John Beard and I wrote a few years ago. It was one of the 200 imported to this country in the mid-1950s and has no import markings. At $1552.00 it was still a good deal. Had it stayed in the $750-1000 range it would have been a steal!!

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When I first saw the Auction Ad I was immediately interested!! For the last 4 months I've been researching the various NZ stock markings which of course required detailed reading of the various links to the Red Star Rifles articles posted on the internet.
While I was aware of the article you and JB published I simply didn't have time to obtain that during the auction period. I was aware that there was a serial # list of some of the "Red Star Rifles- If not most" but again time wasn't on my side to do neglected research.

While I had a strong suspicion that this rifle was an early L/L 1903 Remington sent to Britain I had reservations for the following reasons. Again ....I'll repeat that my commentary is not a "Flame" towards the Auction Seller. What I'm about to say is simply to explain why I wasn't prepared to bid more than $1,000.00.

1 - The auction pictures were inadquate in clarity and number.Had I had a response for the extra picutures I requested I'd have had a better feeling about bidding higher than the winning bid.

2 - I sent an email requesting info on barrel condition: the answer I received was "bright & shiney".

3 - Another issue that arose that was actually included in the auction photos. That being the left/side buttstock stamp.."BR" My research via NZ and Britain indicates the "BR" stamp indicates "Birmingham Repair" AKA "BSA" in Britain. This struck me as somewhat significant in that I hadn't read anything about "Red Star" rifles as having such a mark. My reading being these 1903 Remingtons were unmolested in Britain. Perhaps I missed that information

4 - Had I been able to confirm prior to the conclusion of the auction that the rifle; as stated by RTL was a documented Red Star rifle, the final price would have been higher than $1,552.00.

I'll again repeat!!..this is not a "Flame" towards the Seller. It's just an explanation of my thought process throughout the auction. I wish now I had followed my instinct!

Regards:cheers:

I know what you mean, Mike - when you're talking lots of money, you have to be careful. Bill Hansen was the one who did the initial research on these rifles about 12-13 years ago, and had a chance to look at those which (in 1999) still hadn't sold. He did get the serial numbers of those that Red Star did sell and published the list as part of his article in Martial Arms Collector Magazine in 1999. I have a data base with the serial numbers for 127 of the 200 that were imported. 36 of them still remain in cases, unopened, held by the nephew of the original owner, so, actually, about 3/4 are "spoken for". As I said, the one for sale was one of the 60 that were sold through Red Star in 1999.

The nephew also has all the paperwork, conclusively showing that they were all imported from the UK and did not get sent to New Zealand. I examined about 50 of them in 2008 and none had any New Zealand markings, nor import marks.

The seller says the letters on the left side buttstock are "E R" not "B R." I thought they were "E R," ....it is hard to tell from the photos, but I'll bet Rick is right about the "B.R." I asked the seller about these letters and he said he had no idea what they represented. I've never seen them on any of the "Red Stars" before and this bothered me. The rifle is listed as being in Utah and the seller said that the rifle came from someone who was now deceased, but who had worked in California in the past. I don't think there is any question but that it is one of the Levin rifles purchased from the "Red Star," but something about this one bothered me....maybe the lack of good quality photos and a lack of info on the rifle's history. Maybe the seller just didn't know exactly what he had. At any rate, if it is totally legit the purchaser got a very good deal.

What is the significance of NZ > D on the stock. I assume it means New Zealand Defense. I own one (Remington 03) so marked but it has no import marks on it. Serial #s144XXX. Also does not have a red stripe around the forearm. It does not look as if it was ever issued.

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Originally Posted by Texag45

The seller says the letters on the left side buttstock are "E R" not "B R." I thought they were "E R," ....it is hard to tell from the photos, but I'll bet Rick is right about the "B.R." I asked the seller about these letters and he said he had no idea what they represented. I've never seen them on any of the "Red Stars" before and this bothered me. The rifle is listed as being in Utah and the seller said that the rifle came from someone who was now deceased, but who had worked in California in the past. I don't think there is any question but that it is one of the Levin rifles purchased from the "Red Star," but something about this one bothered me....maybe the lack of good quality photos and a lack of info on the rifle's history. Maybe the seller just didn't know exactly what he had. At any rate, if it is totally legit the purchaser got a very good deal.

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I believe the L/S stock mark is "BR"..Not "ER"..the stock marking "ER" does not exist in the era research that I have found thus far?..Since Rick (RTL) positively states this that this rifle serial # was a "Red Star" rifle that marking would be consistant in at least to the time frame. Just why this stock would have been stamped with "BR" ( which stands for Birmingham Repair {BSA}..) is beyond my capabilty to explain to date. Perhaps this particuliar rifle had an issue and then found it's way into the "Red Star" shipping crates. Beats me..but unless the "BR" stamp was applied by other than the British I tend to believe that the stamping is legit.:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arkshooter

What is the significance of NZ > D on the stock. I assume it means New Zealand Defense. I own one (Remington 03) so marked but it has no import marks on it. Serial #s144XXX. Also does not have a red stripe around the forearm. It does not look as if it was ever issued.

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Did you make a couple of "typo" errors?..I would at least have to have the first five actual #'s of your serial # to answer your question with any reasonable chance of making a close guesstimate:sos:

The other possible typo is your description of your stock marking. You posted NZ>D. My research indicates that doesn't exist unless it's a mis-strike.

There are two known examples (to me) of NZ stock stamps. The first being NZ^D and its the early to perhaps mid 1942. These stamps were usually placed on the left side butt stock. The stamping stood for New Zealand (Home) Defense.

The later stamped marking was N^Z usually placed on the right side buttstock. Usally seen on later L/L stocks sent to New Zealand. Again just representing the the New Zealand (Home) Defense, just shortened.

THE .. ^ .. is accutally a NZ Commanwealth marking which is referred to a a "Broad Arrow"; seperate and distinct from Britain/British markings. The "Broad Arrow" (^) is always vertical..not sideways..(>).

Both of the stamped markings may be followed by a number, usually indicative of a "rack number". NZ rifles did not have a "Red Band" such as did the British L/L's nor do I I have any info that indicates that any other Commonwealth Countrys use the "Red Band".

HTH..:cheers:

I own SN 21131, 42-1, GG RLB stock. Here is the NZ mark, Right side rear of stock. Regards, Rick.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/04/nz1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/04/nz2-1.jpg

Attachment 32618Attachment 32619Ok, Here is a picture of the buttstock. I was wrong on the configuration and serial number. Serial # XX44733. On Butt stock NZ^D.

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Originally Posted by arkshooter

Attachment 32618Attachment 32619Ok, Here is a picture of the buttstock. I was wrong on the configuration and serial number. Serial # XX44733. On Butt stock NZ^D.

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Is your stock a Grasping Grove stock?? I ask because I tend to think your rifle serial # "Might" be a bit late for a "GG" Stock.. RTL or JB are more qualified than I to answer that question.

That being said your stock mark NZ^D is the early NZ stamping style.

All the being said there is no sufficent historical documentation as what was sent to NZ as to serial #'s, or when...Very nice pictures sir..very nice indeed!

I'm gonna reply to sanorick shortly re: his post!!

:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sakorick

I own SN 21131, 42-1, GG RLB stock. Here is the NZ mark, Right side rear of stock. Regards, Rick.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/04/nz1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/04/nz2-1.jpg

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Great job on the pictures:clap::clap: - I note your rifle is an early Remington. Your stock stamping N^Z 6553 appears to be the later style (mid 1942).

I wish I could fiquire out the "break point" on the different styles of stampings. I'm also not totally convinced the numbers following the two styles of NZ stamps are "Rack" #'s.

Much to do yet but I must say the NZ Museum is being very helpfull!!

:cheers:

Arkshooter, I understand your need for privacy, but it would be a lot more helpful (and get you a lot more response) to "X out" and last 2-3 digits, rather than the first ones!

BN 3144765 ... No grasping grooves.

Attachment 32744Strike my previous comment. I pulled it out of storage, and it does indeed have grasping grooves. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by arkshooter

Attachment 32744Strike my previous comment. I pulled it out of storage, and it does indeed have grasping grooves. Sorry about that.

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arkshooter,

Your rifle is way too late for a grasping groove stock. The rifle appears to have been re-finished and a replacement stock could have happened at that time. Rifles in your serial number range are scarce in original finish, and "as manufactured" configuration.

FWIW,

Emri

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emri

arkshooter,

Your rifle is way too late for a grasping groove stock. The rifle appears to have been re-finished and a replacement stock could have happened at that time. Rifles in your serial number range are scarce in original finish, and "as manufactured" configuration.

FWIW,

Emri

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I am a mere seeker of knowledge here, but if that is the case, why is the stock stamped NZ^D?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arkshooter

I am a mere seeker of knowledge here, but if that is the case, why is the stock stamped NZ^D?

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Ark - One of the more difficult things to do is to 'Nail' down with Remington 1903 rifles is when the various parts were "modified"and that includes the transition from "GG" (grasping groove) stocks. Your rifle serial # 3144765 was made approx. June/July 1942. By that time most stocks were Non "GG" but it's not impossible. As I said in a previous post I don't know when NZ changed from the left side stock stamp NZ^D to the later right side N^Z stamping. When I consider your manufacture date for your rifle and then the shipping time to NZ from the US in the midst of the early Pacific War I tend to think the stock would have had the N^Z stamping rather than the NZ^D.

Stocks got swapped around over the course of 70 years.. HTH :cheers:

Early Remington 03's are a bit of a mystery that's for sure. My NZ marked rifle was one of some 10 odd rifles turned in to the CMP from the Legion or VFW. JB inspected each one and took notes on what each one had. The bores on all of them were in poor condition from shooting blanks for so long. I purchased the rifle for $1400 on the CMP auction some five years ago. I also own SN 4295, 11-41 which I restored ......the RLB GG stock and the bolt were tough to find and that's the truth! Regards, Rick.

The bore on this one is in fine shape. It does not appear to have been issued, or if it has, not used very much. I wonder what the value is... although I know that value is extremely difficult to set. I do know it is probably worth more than I paid for it 2 years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arkshooter

The bore on this one is in fine shape. It does not appear to have been issued, or if it has, not used very much. I wonder what the value is... although I know that value is extremely difficult to set. I do know it is probably worth more than I paid for it 2 years ago.

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Value? Nobody can provide you with a value here because of Insufficent info provided on your part:dunno::dunno:.. How about posting 12 - 15 excellant pictures of the rifle including pics of the sights, barrel date, receiver, bolt and bolt marks along with striker and bolt shroud, bands & buttplate, stamps fore and aft of the trigger guard, guaged muzzle wear and throat erosion, left & right sides of the stock ect ..ect..

Provide the above and you'll get some educated opinions..HTH..:cheers:

"nor do I have any info that indicates that any other Commonwealth Countrys use the "Red Band"."

Canada used the red band. Lots of M1917's came back from Canada with red bands.

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Originally Posted by Charlie

"nor do I have any info that indicates that any other Commonwealth Countrys use the "Red Band"."

Canada used the red band. Lots of M1917's came back from Canada with red bands.

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I appreciate that input. The use of the "Red Band" logically was used to denote a different cartridge than the 303 Brit. Makes sense!. Did Canada use the "Broad Arrow" stamping on the buttstock??..:cheers:

I have three red star rifles. Two I bought directly from Red Star. The third one I got from a pawn shop. Don't know how many hands it passed through before I got it, but at some point the red band was removed but still has traces in the wood grain. I also have Rem. 3005511 With RLB GG stock and N/\Z on the right side. Rifle is pristine.

"Did Canada use the "Broad Arrow" stamping on the buttstock?"

Yes, broad arrow inside a C

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie

"Did Canada use the "Broad Arrow" stamping on the buttstock?"

Yes, broad arrow inside a C

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Picture please..when you get time

The New Zealand M1903 rifles were all early WW2 Remington production and were imported for RNZAF use (guarding airfields, etc) and later for Home Guard use. A complete range of spare parts was supplied as well, many of which still turn up here from an old sports shop which bought the spares at the end of the war (also M17 parts in the same deal). Apart from a few that 'fell off the back of trucks', all of the M1903's and the 66 Air Force/Home Guard M1917A1 Brownings were returned to the US after the war. I have seen quite a few over the years and they have mostly been marked N^Z. I have only seen one marked NZ^D. None of them had red bands on the stock. Most of the examples in NZ have poor barrels because of hard use and corrosive ammo.

Out of curiosity what kind of slings did the NZ rifles come with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Out of curiosity what kind of slings did the NZ rifles come with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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M1923 Web??? That is an excellent question.

Did rifles come from Remington with a sling, or was that issued at a depot or unit level?

Most of the M1903 rifles I have seen had the leather US issue sling (that was on the Garands) with brass hooks. If they were damaged they would have been replaced with standard SMLE web slings.

More pictures of my 03 Remington NZ^D

Attachment 32954Attachment 32959Attachment 32958Attachment 32957Attachment 32956Attachment 32955

Hey guys I am the purchaser of the rifle that this thread was originally started for and figured I would post for those interested some pics of the rifle and see what you think. I wanted to wait till I had the rifle in hand before I went and posted in this topic. I frequent the forum quite often as a reader, never really a poster but thought I should chime in on this.

As stated by Mike Haas the communication with the seller left much to be wanting but the information I did receive I felt was adequate for me to jump on this gun and I am very happy I did! I was surprised when I found this thread a day or two after the end of the auction but was elated with RTL's posts on it as it confirmed what I had thought the rifle to be.

I picked the gun up today from my FFL, took some pictures and looked it over good. The rifle still has small amounts of grease in the crevises of the stock and receiever. The red band has a 30 on the left side, is intact and looks great. Finish on reciever and barrel are very good. Ord stamp and boxed RLB markings are nice and crisp. On the bottom of the grip is the circle P and to the right a W/1. On the area forward of the trigger guard I can make out some Remington markings as well as a 4 and a 3. As stated before on the left side of the butt is a ER marking and on the right what looks to be a U.

I'm very happy with this, it’s a great piece to add to my collection and I thought some guys would like to see it.

Great pictures! Thanks for posting. Email sent.

RtL

I appreciate your post and I congradulate you on your rifle. I truely wish the seller had been more responsive for requested info. Had he done that one of us would have paid more for the rifle then the finally went for..:)

I also PM'ed you.

Mike Haas

Thanks Mike and Rick I appreciate it! I love this gun and the history behind it and the others like it. I do not believe the seller knew what he had, I just happened to click on the auction one day and that red band made my eyes pop out :D. My max on the gun would of been around $1800.00 but $1550 I felt was a very good price for such a gun.

Thanks again guys!

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Originally Posted by CTTC

Thanks Mike and Rick I appreciate it! I love this gun and the history behind it and the others like it. I do not believe the seller knew what he had, I just happened to click on the auction one day and that red band made my eyes pop out :D. My max on the gun would of been around $1800.00 but $1550 I felt was a very good price for such a gun.

Thanks again guys!

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Your probably correct the seller wasn't sure about what he had. Had I been sure of what I "thought" I was seeing you and I would have been in a "bidding war" :eek: ..I feel confident the rifle is in good hands and I'm glad for you Sir..:thup::thup:.. You and yours stay safe & well .. Mike Haas..:cheers:

PS - RTL should donate a copy of his "Red Star" article to you!!!

Actually, John Beard did the writing - I took the pictures and provided some of the information ... plus got to look at and photograph about 60 of the most beautiful Remington M1903s I ever laid eyes on!! Fortunately, the water damage from my drool wasn't too extensive!! :D

I am beginning to think that sometimes the stock was a non grasping groove and sometimes it was.

CTTC - Very nice rifle! You did well. :thup:

The bolt on your rifle looks like one of the late Rock Island bolts. Could you tell us what the markings are under the handle?

Mike

The Red Star Remington Model 1903 Rifles - July 2009 thread by John Beard

Milsurps - Red Star Remington Model 1903's - Library Article by Terry Hawker

Regards,
Doug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badger

The Red Star Remington Model 1903 Rifles - July 2009 thread by John Beard

Milsurps - Red Star Remington Model 1903's - Library Article by Terry Hawker

Regards,
Doug

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..what John Beard has to say about this one..:wave:..I wouldn't be shocked if he inspect'ed it at CMP Anniston..

Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!

Mike Haas

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike D

CTTC - Very nice rifle! You did well. :thup:

The bolt on your rifle looks like one of the late Rock Island bolts. Could you tell us what the markings are under the handle?

Mike

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Thanks Mike! I'm very happy with the rifle and still can't really believe i lucked in to it.

The bolt is R marked on the bottom and on the sleeve. I attached a picture for you.

cttc, great job on the red band remingtion.
hear is a link to the back issue for JB article in man at arms.
Man at Arms Magazine for the Gun and Sword Collector Back Issue List