Help needed for Lithgow rifle ID

Hi Everyone.

I need some help identifying a .303
On the right side of the stock is a few stampings.

M.A
LITHGOW
SMLE
D85496
III* HV

1943

All the numbers match on the rifle, except for two dates, one being 1943 on the stock and 1942 that is stamped on the ring just behind the trigger.

The rifle doesnt have a steel rear sight as i have seen many of the enfield fitted with, but rather it has been fitted with a peep sight of some description.
It would be great if someone could shed some more light on this rifle, as it seems to be just a little outside of most of the descriptions i have read about this rifle.
Any help would be greatly appreciated :)

I'm not a Lithgow expert but until someone more knowledgeable chimes in, here are my impressions, keeping in mind pictures would definitely help. Sounds like it was converted to a target rifle and likely received different wood at the time. If the front sight has been removed and it has a one piece upper handguard, there is also the possibility it has a heavy barrel. Not military stock, but not one that many would turn their nose up at either. Of course I could be way out in left field here too.

I couldn’t find any reference to an HV marked Lithgow other than the “High Velocity” mark behind the back sight. Just the HT. Still have a look for an “H” on the barrel knox form (the flat area just in front of the receiver ring on the top of the barrel). As Gary D said photos would be a big help (well, at least for me)

I will try and post up a picture when i get home at the end of the week (damn working away from home on a mine :( )
It still has the front sight. Everything on the rifle looks original, the number stamped on the stock corresponds with the number stamped on the receiver.
It just seems funny that it doesnt have the rear sight (volley sight?) that every other .303 i have seen has.
Another thing i forgot to mention is that on the stock, and on top of the reciever there is a stamp that looks like this

\|/
S
/|\

I dont know if that means anything significant??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smash1911

Another thing i forgot to mention is that on the stock, and on top of the reciever there is a stamp that looks like this

\|/
S
/|\

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Sold out of service marking applied to arms released for sale to the public.

So there is a chance this rifle was never actually fired in anger, and was probably in the armoury and sold off when it was no longer needed??

I'd still love to know why it hasnt got the normal rear sight, the peep sight detracts from the military look of the rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smash1911

So there is a chance this rifle was never actually fired in anger, and was probably in the armoury and sold off when it was no longer needed??

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I don’t think there is any way of knowing with the available information. The mark was at one time applied to all arms found surplus to needs to indicate the cancellation of government ownership. Basically to indicate the arm was sold out of service rather than stolen. As with Gary D’s question does it have a one piece upper handguard? Is the original back sight bed still in place?
Does yours look like this one in the Australia section of the MKL?
Military Surplus Collectors Forums

I'm not sure if it has a one piece upper, i think it has because the timber is the same the whole length on top of the barrell.
I cant see any pics in that thread you posted, my internet at work is blocked from picture storage websites :(
I have a few pics on my computer at home so i will try and post them up tonight.

OK I get it now. I miss read your first post.
The marks your are referring to are stamped into the butt stock. The information needed to identify your rifle is stamped on the Butt socket (the ring just behind the trigger) under the bolt handle.
I just pulled my Lithgow out and it also has the “HV” mark on the stock. I knew what it meant but for the life of me I can’t remember right now. I’ll look it up in Skennerton’s book as soon as I have a bit of extra time. I’ll wait on your photos before I comment further.

I know they arent the best photos but they are the best that i could do at the time.
Hopefully it makes it easier for you guys to understand what i am talking about!!


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G'day,

Sorry I've been away and missed this post.

You have an Aussie SMLE which has been surplussed after the war and converted into a target-shooter's range rifle. The rifle itself is a pretty common garden-variety Lithgow No1. The receiver was made in 1942 but the rifle was completed and stocked up in 1943. Pretty common to have a later date on the buttstock than the one on the receiver.

The full-length top wood is a popular postwar modification. As target shooters used peepsights like the one fitted to your rifle, there was no need for the military rearsight. As the standard military wood was comprised of a front and a rear handguard, removing the rearsight, rearsight mount and sight protector left a big open space. To stop heat haze changing the sight picture, one-piece top woods were popular.

It is possible that your rifle has been rebarreled with a heavy barrel. These were popular for target shooters, and are a 25.5inch barrel which uses the heavier profile of the earlier Long Lee barrel of 30.2 inches, just at the shorter length for better accuracy.

As No4MkI(T) said, if the knox form (flat part just forward of where the barrel screws into the receiver) has a capital H stamped into it, then that shows it is a heavy barrel. These were often fitted after the war.

The HV refers to the higher velocity MkVII round. Early rifles were sighted to suit the round-nosed MkVI round, but when the MkVII round appeared around 1911, rifles had to have their rear sight beds modified slightly as the new round was of a higher velocity.

For some obscure reason, Aussie rifles were marked on the buttstock with HV, even decades after the MkVII round became the norm.

Nice rifle, you could return it to military trim with a bit of work, or keep it as-is for range shooting.

Cheers,
Matt

Thanks jollygreenslug. The photos tell the whole story. The upper wood is very similar to what was used on the Mk.V rifles of the 1922 to 1924 era. If the rifle does have the “H” on the knox form I would leave it as is as it’s an exhalant example of part of the Lee Enfield history as a target rifle.

HV = High Velocity, e.g. MkVII ammo. On Brit guns, the same markings is found behind the rear sight stamped into the barrel as:

HV
SC

Which stands for "High Velocity, Short Cone" - also a reference to the switch from earlier ammo to the modern MkVII round.

Thanks for all the reply's guys, the information has been excellent :)
I think i will be leaving it the way it is, mainly because i have possibly found another addition to start off my collection.
So here is another question... if you manage to find a rifle (another MkIII) that someone was willing to get rid of, but it was unlicensed and had been so for a fair while, what would be the chances of getting it registered??

I'll PM you. You never know who's reading discussion forums!

Cheers,
Matt

Give it a nice cleaning, tidy up that left side and put a new coat of Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) on her and have fun.

An 'H' on the barrel knox or near the receiver, means it was produced only in Australia and has a heavier barrel. An H.T. stamp signifies sniper configuration and is fitted with a heavy barrel.

Thanks for all the help guys, just went and bought myself a couple of skennerton books for a bit of light reading. Very very interesting rifles!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)

I couldn’t find any reference to an HV marked Lithgow other than the “High Velocity” mark behind the back sight. Just the HT. Still have a look for an “H” on the barrel knox form (the flat area just in front of the receiver ring on the top of the barrel). As Gary D said photos would be a big help (well, at least for me)

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Yup the H.V does stand for high velocity, this was when the ammunition was upgraded to MK VII Ball, this happened early 40s and also meant the flip sight ramp was machined down slightly making the sights conform to the more flat shooting MK VII rounds.
Flip sight removed this is most likely a target rifle, the barrel could have been installed by an armourer or by lithgow itself, lithgow usually left stampings on the barrel.
Now if the rifle was converted in the 30s and used in WW2 as a marksmans rifle, the flip sight would have been re-installed, also the peep sights removed and a H stamped on the but piece behind the cocking mechanism.
Also check if the action body serial is also stamped on the barrel, this is not always the case but proves lithgow modification.
Heavy barrel rifles are good shooters, the rifling is quite different to the standard barrels and bears resemblance to the metfords.
Phew! too much typing, good shooting!

The MkVII round was introduced in 1910 firing a 160 grain spitzer projectile, but was quickly upgraded to a 147 grain pill which remained the norm. Early SMLEs often show signs of being upgraded from MKVI to MKVII standards as you mention, but the rifle in question was produced in 1942 so it was well after the changeover.

During WW1, the MkVI round was still manufactured in some places; I have some 1917 Aussie MkVI.

Every WW2 Lithgow rifle I've encountered has the HV stamping on the butt. Not sure why, three decades on. The HV SC near the rearsight is common too.

The marksman rifles of which you speak are an interesting breed. They were introduced from the early 30s, with a heavy barrel being factory fitted. They also used an aperture sight, and one can usually tell such a rifle by the small cutaway or area of crushed wood on the left hand side where the aperture mount sat. As you mention, a capital H was stamped into the top of the buttstock just behind the buttsocket.

I don't know how many such rifles were converted, but many of them were used as the basis for HT rifles from 1944 onwards. I'm guessing there aren't too many around today.

I have one, a 1915 Lithgow, with all the features mentioned above. Nice rifle, that.

Cheers,
Matt

Some great information there guys, cheers!
The rifle is a very nice shooter, i dont think i will be changing anything about it. I have a 1922 Lithgow that is still in military configuration which has a MOTTY heavy barrell fitted which is also a good shooter, but the later one is just that bit better. When i removed to top wood for a bit of a peek-a-boo there is a thin strip of felt wrapped around the barrell at both ends and the whole barrell seems to be 'bedded' in a grease like substance.
Also had a couple old MkVI rounds in the ammo box, they were the first to go through the rifle (back in the day when i knew very little about these things, i though they were just dumb rounded bullets!)
Now the old girl fires some 1942 shells i reloaded with 130 spitzers, even managed to hit a few varmints 200+ yards away, stops them in their tracks thats for sure!!

Have fun with that rifle smash, got my dates wrong with the mkVII ball, should be 1910ish not 1940 as I typed, thanks JGS