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As my eyes are getting a bit older am struggling at times with open sights, mainly in bad lighting, so I,m looking towards scopes on the Milsursps in the future, been looking at adding a Nagant to my hoard but as the Nagant sniper versions can still be bought without braking the bank here in the (UK) is there anything I should be looking for on a sniper version ?
A great deal of useful information can be found here: http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/default.asp
Since PU scopes were still being made in masses long after the war, faked-up mixmaster snipers abound. No problem, they also shoot well, just don't pay a "collector's surcharge" for some fairy story! Don't go by numbers and stamps or the woodwork, they are too easy to fake. Go for the genuine long bolt handle on a bolt that matches the number on the receiver. Real snipers have a long, turned down bolt handle, properly numbered to the rifle. Not a normal handle that has been bent, or visibly cut and welded! That is something that the usual creative stamp artist cannot duplicate.
The PU scope is, of course, primitive by modern standards, the main problem being visual: where, exactly, is the tip of the sight "blade"? But even so, "Ivan the Terrible" - my 1943 vintage 91/30 (terrible refers to its external appearance, not its performance!) will slot everything into the 10 at 100 meters. Which I certainly cannot achieve with iron sights. With a modern scope fitted, it is a serious threat to the 10X. Look for 1 MOA grouping after applying the scope adjustment tips given on the Mosin-Nagant site. But to achieve this, don't waste your time on surplus ammo, even if it's being given away.
:wave:
Patrick
Patrick, that is very helpful. Some questions maybe you can address.
What should a mixmaster sniper vs a true original sniper cost range be? I.e. what cost range should one be prepared to pay for a replica vs an original.
Do you have any good load or powder & bullet suggestions for better accuracy? Thanks!
Thanks Patrick,
If they can hit the 10 ring then its ok with me, will have a good look and see whats on the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Surfer
First, a mild correction. The mixmasters are not replicas, which would mean newly made parts that copy an original. Those I have seen were made up with original parts, and in fact, being post-war, may be in far better condition than the typical wartime production. What you are not getting with the later product is the "been there, done that" flavor. Which, over here, can roughly double the price from 250-350 for the mixmaster to 500-700 for the "Stalingrad look & feel".
As to ammo, I do not post reloading recommendations. There are enough reloading manuals around from serious companies who have a legal team to defend themselves from any claims if a reloader does something stupid. For a private person, merely defending yourself against a frivolous claim from some Bubba who double-loaded his gun could be ruinous. But from personal experience I can recommend the "7,62 Russian Match" from Norma, which is loaded with 168gn Sierra bullets. There is no point in feeding an M91/30 sniper with junk ammo - you want to test the rifle, not the ammunition!
:wave:
Patrick
A replica sniper rifle in the US tends to go for $450-$550 while the real deal is in the $800-$1000 range. Trouble is, unless you know exactly what you are looking for, they are difficult to tell apart sometimes. Genuine sniper rifles were selected for their accuracy. They often but not always had the serial number of the scope engraved or stamped onto the receiver ring. This being missing does not mean the rifle is not legit. There are differences in the scopes, round screw heads verses flat screw heads, etc.
One consideration which I discovered to my great disappointment. PU scopes have a very different eye relief than "normal" scopes. I worked up a nice rebuild of an ex-sniper with a repro scope and discovered that I have difficulty shooting it due to the deterioration of my near vision. Age is catching up with me and bifocals are in my near future. In any case, I can't see in focus unless I remove my glasses. Then I can see just fine but I can't see anything else. Love the rifle though, disappointed in that it will strictly be a range gun. I had hoped to take it hunting but that's out with the eye/glasses problem.
That seems to match the range I quoted (which was, of course, in euros).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Me too! That's why I now have my glasses on a string round my neck. But as I now need different glasses for driving, reading and shooting, its getting a bit crowded, and the things get tangled up...
"As to ammo, I do not post reloading recommendations." I understand. I was more wanting some info on best likely powder and bullet combinations without the loads, which I can figure out and work up from my manuals. Thanks for the response.
I'm not an expert on M91-30 sniper history, but you want to look for a rifle that has a dull colored finish, with patterns in the wood stock that suggests the camoflage of a tiger shark. {that's what my IZZY-1943, M91-30 sniper rifle looks like} In each imported crate of 100, M91-30's, possibly 3 of them are sniper's, converted back to infantry ---but with the two drill holes, for the scope mount, drilled into the left side of the reciever.
On top of the barrel in front of the reciever you will see the factory marking's, and year that the rifle was made. On the left side of the barrel in front of the reciever, you will see the new laser etched marking's of the importer such as Century Arms. Just to the left and below of the laser etching's, you will see an old looking serial number that has been stamped out buy a thin single chisel mark across the center of the numbers. This rifle was picked for it's accuracy, stamped with that number, made into a sniper, and converted back to an infantry rifle, when the single chisel mark was made across the serial number. The number and the chisel mark will not look new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
A tiger shark that has been dunked in shellac, of course!
Ex-snipers will have the old screw holes visible on the inside of the receiver wall on the left opposite the bolt. That's about the only thing that will be consistent with all of them. They didn't simply line out the scope serial number on most, they ground it off. The screw holes were filled and welded over, polished and then re-blued during the arsenal process. Tiger striped stocks are laminate stocks and are post war additions. They would not be original to a 1943 rifle, they are also not exclusive to snipers, they used them as replacements on all rifles that had bad stocks.
Pre-war rifles will all be "finished". 1942 and 1943 rifles will usually not be well finished. They look rough. A 1942 or 1943 rifle that looks better than most may indicate it was a sniper but you need to check inside the receiver for the mount holes. Sniper rifles were indeed selected for accuracy and they were finished a bit further than the run of the mill rifles. That's how I got mine, completely by accident. I was looking at a dozen or so and this one had a nicely finished receiver as opposed to badly finished receivers on the rest. It wasn't until I got it home and got the cosmoline out of it that I found the holes for the scope mount.
You might get lucky and find one with the original (repaired) stock, too! These are much easier to spot. :)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2333-1.jpg
Got me one of them ^ , right on the end of the forend stock:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0270-1.jpg
BigDuke,
May I suggest that you search for the Russian Mosin Nagant Forum on the WEB. They seem to have the best information on real and fake M91-30 sniper rifles.
My M91-30 "sniper," does not have a laminated stock on it. I referred to the "tiger stripes" in my last post, as darker wood on lighter wood so as to make it a patchy camoflage hue to it; not the elongated lines of a laminated stock. I wish I could show you a picture of it, but I'am not that computer savvy. It is one of the most beautiful stocks that I have ever seen. It does stand out in a crowd. It does not have a shiny finish on the stock.
If you want to read about the true written story, written by the Russian sniper, Vasily Zaitsev himself, about his escapades in Stalingrad ---- you can check my thread on ATS {Above Top Secret,} discussion forum ---- in the Weaponry forum, titled: Duel of the Master Snipers, a thread posted by me, known as Erno86.
Cheers,
Erno86
I bought my Mosin "sniper," from a gunshop here in Maryland. The gunsmith there, polished the trigger and sear so much that it had a "hair" trigger pull on it. This is a dangerous condition for a Mosin, if you drop a loaded rifle. ALWAYS... do a drop test on your Mosin before or after you buy it, or polish the trigger group. I had to replace the trigger leaf spring and sear by ordering another set from Numrich Gun Parts.
Just pound your unloaded, cocked, safety off, butt of your Mosin stock on a carpeted floor --- with a "reasonable" force to see if it goes off. I imagine... if you pound hard enough --- they will all go off. The hair trigger on my Mosin, before I replaced it, would go off, when I would just hit the palm of my hand on the rear of the cocked bolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
This is something I do not quite understand. To select a rifle for accuracy, it must first be assembled in order to shoot it. Which would surely mean it had been finished. Or were they assembled, selected for accuracy, and then dismantled and refinished with a smoother surface?
I believe they received more attention during the manufacturing process and were more accurate as a result. Afterall, there are known serial number blocks for the snipers.
Your not talking about a Finnish arctic birch stock are you? Those certainly have beautiful "tiger striped" figure in the wood and also do not have a shiny shellac finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
Here's an M39 that I have with such a stock.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_4026-1.jpg
This isn't a very good photo, but the M91/30 (ex-PEM sniper) and the SKS45 at the bottom have that nice Russian dark/light effect. They have the Russian shellac finish, though, so they are a bit shiny.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P1010040-1.jpg
Who knows. Seems little is really understood with these due to Soviet secrecy or failure to keep records. I'm just passing along what I've read on the selection process. I would guess they were finished further after assembly as I've noted no difference in the finish of my barrel, it still shows the lathe marks. The receiver however has been polished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Erno86,
You mention Vasily Zaitsev , looking at pics of him he used a nagant with PE scope and a side rail mount (similar to the german LSR mount ) would this be a rarer sniper variation than the usual PU mounted rifles.
UPDATED, I,ve answered my own question with a bit of reading on the forum you suggested very interesting but could not find you peice on Vasily, any chance you post a link?
this is something i've been looking into as well, was there such a thing as cold bluing back then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
So only the receiver and not the barrel shack with all the numbers was polished?
I'm assuming they also improved the fit of the stock?
Duel of the master snipers, by Vasily Zaitsev, page l -76kQuote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
If link does not work: Search on the web --- Vasily Zaitsev --- Go to page 6 ---- Duel of the Master Snipers, by Vasily Zaitsev, page 1
You can link on ATS {Above Top Secret} ---- Go to Search Engine, and type in --- Duel of the Master Snipers ---- or just go to page 5
jjjxir8 --- It seems my Mosin sniper has a Black-light effect that you talked about, but it seems to have some tiger-striping on it; but not much. How did the Russian gunmakers produce this effect on the wood? Maybe.... buy burning some of the wood stock with a power saw?
I found that the link only works partially. But... you can still link on when you go to the upper right hand corner of the ATS page and click the "SEARCH" soft key ---- and type in: Duel of the Master Snipers
My receiver is polished as good as my other pre-war rifles. The barrel "shack" with the numbers is polished better than my other 1942 but you can see it was done by hand and not on a lathe as there remains some marks which are not aligned with lathe polishing. My barrel is unfinished, just blued. The stock is not an original and probably are not original on any of the ex-snipers unless by sheer coincidence. It is an odd length, it's shorter. both the hand guard and the stock were shortened about an inch and a half, probably due to damage of some sort. The caps were put back on. The hand guard is a neat trick, unless you put it side by side with another, you'd never know it was shortened. End caps fit perfectly. But again, I don't think this stock oddity has anything to do with it being an ex-sniper, it was just the next available one in the stack when they were re-assembling them. The bolt also is not original so I lost the nice trigger assembly, etc. I've been experimenting with that off and on but I either seem to get it too light where it fails the drop test or no improvement. Polishing seems to help but I can't find the correct bends in the spring.
Aragorn243,
May I suggest that you just by another trigger spring from Numrich Gun Parts, while they still have them. If you put one in backwards like I did one time, it will give the spring the wrong angle.
My Mosin rifle's group's... tend to walk upward's when the barrel's get hot. Anybody have a fix for my problem?
It's just the natural figure of the birch on the rifles that I have. No burning or anything like that. Just beautiful wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
Here are a couple examples of PU snipers that might support polishing by hand after numbers, logo, and date were stamped. Maybe even after an accuracy selection? I suppose it's also possible that there was some polishing during refurb, though. Wish I had an original un-refurbished sniper to look at. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
You can still see coarse turning marks on part of the barrel shank. Most of it looks like the tool marks have been polished away with a hand held buffer, rather than on a lathe.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2480-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...44TulaCH-1.jpg
Here's a '44 Izhevsk PU sniper. This one certainly had some polishing during the refurbishment as almost all of the original scope number was removed rather than lined out.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3088-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3080-1.jpg
My '43 is the same way.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2704-1.jpg
Interestingly, this '42 Izhevsk ex-PEM sniper seems to still have the very coarse turning marks on the barrel shank. No sign of polishing at all and even the receiver is very rough. This makes me wonder if the polishing on the barrel shanks in the above examples was, in fact, performed during refurb. It might not be a fair comparison with the PU snipers, however, as PEM side mounts were a very short-lived interim configuration. Production may have been a little hectic at that time.
Here's some photos of the '42 showing the expedited finish work...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0090-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0087-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2567-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2565-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2568-1.jpg
Rough receiver!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_4506-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_4505-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_4504-1.jpg
Original ex-PEM stock...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2338-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2333-1.jpg
My ex-sniper was a PEM version. The scope serial was ground off during refurb. If you look at it close, you can tell what was ground during refurb and at an earlier time as they did not get too particular about "rounding" . The scope serial and the screw holes are both flatter areas of the metal. Not so much that it's noticeable unless you're looking for it but it is there.
Erno: I had my 43 CH marked Tula out this past weekend shooting some of my handloads at 200 yards, slung up on a NRA SR-C target. I had a vertical string group also. I shot slow fire. My groups with Wolf GOld seem to be pretty round.Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
There is a ton on information on these rifles on gunboards. That includes how to tune them and help improve accuracy. The Soviets knew how to do it. There were manuels on it.
Always start by making sure the action screws are tight. You can wrap the barrel under the front band to stabilize harmonics. You can shim the action when needed. Much more detail can be found.
On what Vasilly used, he used lots of different snipers. He liked the PEM side mount rifles, and yes, they are much more rare and considerably more expensive than a PU. The PEM scope can cost as much as a complete PU sniper. The mount will be 2 or 3 times as much as a PU. Vasilly also used a PU. His PU is on display in the museum in Volgagrad/Stallingrad.
Pictured is a 1939 Finn captured PEM purchased from Vic Thomas, owner of gunboards.
Now that's a spectacular rifle!! Very nice.
I have been very lucky and all my rifles have shot very well at all ranges with out having to mess around with them.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c228c556-1.jpg