A couple of questions re WWII & Korean War Aust snipers

1. Does anyone know if Australia produced, or had access to, Mk.VIII or Mk.VIIIz ammo for WWII or Korean war?
2. I understand that the Mk.VIIIz was designed for use in MMG (Vickers), but Brit snipers did occasionally use it. Would the Rifle No.4 have handled this powerful ammo better than the Aussie SMLE No1 HT?
3. If anyone knows of an authoritive book on Aust produced ammo (such as on the C'th Ammo Factory in Melbourne) I'd be very peased to hear of it.
4. Finally, I inteviewed an Australian sniper in the Korean war (3RAR) some time back. He said that he could shoot an 8 cm group at 300 metres (get 15 rounds into 8 cm), hit a man's head at 600 metres and a man-size target out to 1000 metres, using an SMLE Mk.III HT. How credible is this?

Cheers,

Glenn

Glenn, using handloads through my No1 MkIII* HT I once put 5 rounds in 7" at 700yds. The object of the exercise was to compare my handloads to the best surplus, so I followed up with a few Greek HXP MkVII and found the MPOI to be the same, but the group opened out to about 14".

Perhaps have a look into what the rifle club shooters were doing with heavy barrel SMLE post WW2 with aperture sights. I just did a little searching, but couldn't come up with enough information with any one set of results eg, range, target dimensions, scoring, possible score etc. Maybe some others here have something concrete in this area. Really looking for possibles shot at 600+ meters. I think you will find it was fairly common, making the claims made above credible for a practiced sniper. I'll keep looking and get back with anything I find.

Re Q2 that you ask. A sniper could use any old ammo I suppose but not if he was a) serious, b) wanted to hit anything or c) zero his rifle in because the only ammo calibrated to suit the trajectory of the telescope was standard Mk7. So using anything else was a waste of time - and ammo of course! That's the reason why the Mk8Z ammunition had a different backsight leaf

Gary,

Although not strictly relevant to your question the info below is from a thread I started some time back, Ihope it's of some interest to you?

Sniper Ammo Selection

The information below is reproduced with the kind permission of Harry Furness and is extracted from a letter sent to me in July of 2003 in which he briefly covers how he personally went about securing ammunition.

Harry Furness served as a sniper with the Hallamshire Battalion (Yorks and Lancs) and landed in Normandy on D-day, serving on the front line right through until the capture of Berlin. It is believed, from remaining records, that Harry is the last surviving British Sniper who went ashore on D-Day itself.

Quote:

The combination of a really good Snipers' rifle has to mean that you use only the very best ammunition to ensure high precision results, second best is just not acceptable. As an operational Sniper I was in fact forever scavenging anyones ordnance supplies to get the best quality ammo I could find, so much so it is even mentioned in the campaign history of my wartime Battalion in action across North-West Europe. It's a long story, but briefly whilst still in the UK at Sniping Schools we were promised, as far as feasible, supplies of Match-Grade rifle ammunition for our Sniper Section. But the sheer logistics of a vast Army in the field once battle started meant that specilist supplies grew scarce, and everyone in the line was issued the same sort of general purpose ammo made by mass production methods. To be fair it was quite reliable on the whole, but it was certainly not good enough for the precision long range Sniper who demands competition grade ammunition. My only source then had to be looking through cases of incoming ammo and picking out a supply of those from the best factories. I scrounged good ammo wherever I could find it, when others slept from exhaustion I still kept going and searched out the best for myself and our Section Snipers.

Only a few years ago I was told about a re-union held by the support Vickers Machine Gunners to my Battalion, (the 2nd Bn Kensingtons). At their get-together in London the veterans retold old war stories, etc. Then it was remembered that a Yorks and Lancs Regt Sergeant-Sniper used to come to their slit trenches offering his cigarette supplies for ammo he could pick out from their supply of ordnance. I was after their special issue of long range .303" MkVIIIz. The MG NCOs' only received limited supplies reserved for special shoots, so mostly weren't overkeen to let me have the complete case. I recall being told by their Sergeant Major that I would be making the best use of it anyway, so by handing over a weeks supply of issue and purchased cigarettes I came away with my prize rounds, in reality it meant little to me to hand over all my cigarette ration as I kept them only for bartering anyway, as I am a lifelong non-smoker. I might mention that the use of very specialised .303" rounds such as Armour-Piercing, Incendiary, and the MG MkVIIIz are thought to be very corrosive to a barrel, but my thoughts on it were that I used it in moderation and I fired it only occasionally then my barrel would last, and it did of course.

End quote.

I hope the above is of interest?

Cheers,

Simon.

I bet nobody thought to ask how they zeroed their rifles to the ammo that wasn't even remotely calibrated to the trajectory marked on the telescope scales

Glenn, back then life was more interesting.
As Peter points out, the No.32 and Pattern 18 scopes were zeroed and graduated for the Mk.VII, but the chase was always on for match ammunition (always promised but rarely supplied, or MkVIIz. Canadian pattern or the later W.R.A packaged as red label and easily found by scrounging snipers and marksmen. (both ball powder and less damaging, their trajectories and specs closely related to the standard MkVII.)

Special Match ammo marked K.and date e.g K37(Kynoch 1937) and either S.L or 303 SL.(streamlined) or just KYNOCK .303 7.Z or if Canadian was available D A 39 VII.
These cases were marked with either a black base or coloured bands on the case.
Information relating to this type of ammunition can be found in the B.A. TEMPLE series in IDENTIFICATION MANUAL ON THE .303 BRITISH SERVICE CARTRIDGE. volumes 1 to 5.
Vol.1 covers all the ball ammo and Match cartridges, the last page on selecting ammunition for accuracy is very brief but pertinant.

Good hunting, keep me in mind when the book is finished.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I bet nobody thought to ask how they zeroed their rifles to the ammo that wasn't even remotely calibrated to the trajectory marked on the telescope scales

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I dont know how Harry zeroed his rifle . My method would be zero at 100yds or 200yds then count the clicks up for each 25yd or 50yd target going out to my limits for my preferred batch or type. Once done any new batch would only need checking at several ranges for consistence. Not having the luxuary of a supply of Mk7 or a large outfit of smart guys to do it for me only hand reloads and time i make loads to suit my rifle then work out the ranges by click count.

The last time we had No4T's that I recall, back into the mid 70's, we had a 'same-batch' of .303" green spot ball in the corner of the ammo bunker. Mind you, it wasn't in short supply then. But with regard to Bindi and the shooting with the Mk7Z or 8Z, the trajectory calibrations really did start to differ (just reverse a Mk2 Vickers backsight scale to see.............. I know that you'll all have one handy!) early on and the only way you could do it would be to zero in at, say 300 - which most did anyway and ignore the range scale below or above that, then learn a new clicker scale, this time starting from the stop to ), then to 3, then a new clicker scale from 3 to ................... God, can you see it already...... Sat in some dark old hide, cold and wet after a cold night on the advance into Antwerp, hungry, figuring out where you are going to shoot at the Officer doing his rounds of the sentries. You've got to remember the old 2-2-2-3-4-5 clicker scale in case you need to go back to Mk7 and.......

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

No need for a steel helment i am in the midst of learning the MOA for a scope rifle combo from 300 yds zero stop to 900yds. In amongst this i think my ammo is going subsonic at or just before 900yds .
400yds = 7MOA , 500yds= 14MOA, 600yds = 23MOA, 700yds = 32MOA? still learning out here. The wind strength and direction can mean +/- .5 of MOA.
When i have finished this one i have a another to learn, L42 type using 308 Palma match ammo because surplus 7.62 is not an option or i build a load to fit the rifle and scope more fun.

I stil remember the clicker scales from sitting or laying on the ranges alongside them........ 3 double 4, double 4 6,7,8,9,11 and the L1A1 something like 2,3, double 3, double 4 6,7,8,9. I used to reel them off like an Army number. Made easier because my original number started 23--. Buit then, remembering that you HAVE to remember this, to start remembering another set............. BUT, not from 0 to 10, but 3 downwards and then, 3 upwards.......... Nope........... I used to have a strict policy of correcting myths at Warminster, especially those those that related to another of my favourites, the L85 SA80 rifle myths

Bindii, if you are trying to calibrate for a 303, have fun, but this will help you with your 308 adjustments, it certainly works for me and most of the F class boys.
Bankstown Chatswood Rifle Club go to the ballistics page.

Glenn, I don't think we used anything other then MF rounds, the quality control and components were very good, even after 56 years a test of velocitys gave me these readings from MF56 ammo:
1. 2384 LO 2379
2. 2379 HI 2384
3. 2382 AV 2382
4. 2382 ES 5.62
5. 2383 SD 1.73 Now I have to say, if we could reload to that consistancy, we'd be laughing.
Just to back it up, different rifle, target barrel:
1. 2496 LO 2496
2. 2512 HI 2512
3. 2507 AV 2502
4. 2499 ES 16.59
5. 2496 SD O7.14
Will somebody get Ned out of bed, I'm missing him.:lol:

Muffet

Not a lot of variation in those velocities. Surely those low differences would only make a very minor difference on target.

Ned has been sent a wake up text. He is experiencing some pc issues, which might be keeping him offline for a bit.

Paul

That ammo and some earlier stuff is still bringing in possibles at most of the ranges with my old trusty.
Not so good on the new target dimensions though, but even my target rifle is battleing to keep me straight there.
If things get much worse you will see me on the dark side with a big scope.:beerchug:

Thanks Muff you are a legend.
2208 is very good in the 303 i find and if you believe certain data with much lower pressure than cordite or higher velocity for the same pressure. The problem is finding Mk7 projectiles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

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Peter,

I don't mean to be disrepctful but I've known Harry for more than a good few years and have spent many an hour listening intently as he's been good enough to recount some of his wartime experiences to me. I can tell you one thing for certain about Harry (Nigel G can back me up on this) and that's that time certainly hasn't "played any tricks on his mind" and having spoken to him at length only a couple of weeks back I can tell you he's still as sharp as a tack. I don't doubt, and am in no way questioning, your knowledge of the No4(T) on the Armourers bench and the KD range. That said if the most succesful British Sniper of WWII, a man who carried the 4(T) and used it in frontline combat day after day for twelve months, tells me he sought out MKVIII, AP and tracer for occasional special use then I'm afraid I'm going to believe him.

Cheers,

Simon.

First Simon, you're not disrespectful at all and nor do I mind or object to any comment that you make. This is a forum that thrives on this stuff.

As I said, I have my steel helmet firmly in place and can take any incoming flak. I don't doubt anything that you're saying at all. In fact I know Harry myself and spent many hours with him and his German wife (with whom I spent a few hours practicing my schoolboy German), here, at this very house in the 80's, before he even became known in ex sniper circles. In fact I even had his deact No4T and scope rebuilt to an extremely high standard at our main Base Workshop. He never mentioned Mk8Z ammo to me.

What I am saying and maybe you might comment on the fact if you are bent on believing him, is that just how do you do shoot 8z from a rifle and telescope, matched together and calibrated to the trajectory of a bullet with totally different characteristics and expect to hit the target with the accuracy expected of '.....the most successful sniper in WW2' (or even a non sniper.....). If that WERE even remotely possible, I'd venture to suggest that they could have left the L1A1 telescope in .303"/Yards - and expect to hit a target! I'd also be asking myself this........ ready..... Pray tell me, what on earth will Mk8z do that Mk7 won't do from a rifle. What sort of longer range will a sniper expect when he's already got a matched rifle and calibrated 'scope that WILL hit the triple figure-11 at 1,000 yards (I know, because I've done it). And if you really do want a bullet that will stretch out longer, then......... well don't bother because the telescope won't go any further

Nope............. I stand by what I've said and do appreciate what you have said/repeated in good faith. But as I have said several times, sometimes, just sometimes............, like the Sten and Bren or even Mini Cooper 'facts' that we know are heresay or worse, some of this stuff unfolds in the telling I'm afraid to say. Sometimes, you have to be cruel, in a kind and diplomatic way and say these things to the purveyors of this stuff

The only unanswered question for anyone that believes this, er..........., 'possibly erronious stuff....' is just how would they do it? That's all I ask. Maybe there's a mathematical formula

As a little aside, I did something similar several years ago at our ITDU range over a few days and re-calibrated a S&B 6 x42 calibrated to 7.62mm NATO ball to 5.56 NATO ball. I can tell you this. Even with the RG trajectory charts, a slave rifle of each calibre, plenty of ammo and a day on the test range with an Enfield rest and spotting scopes so as to eliminate all human error, it wasn't simple and took the whole day and into the next and I only needed to go up to 800m. (the project failed for other reasons........)

I was going to keep out of this discussion - because I have the deepest respect for Peter's knowledge and I agree with everything he has said in this thread. I have known Harry Furness for 20 years and, like Simon, have met and corresponded with him on numerous occasions. I feel I have to support Simon because Harry has also told me and written to me about his liking of MkVIIIz ammo. Harry used the flattening the trajectory technique (as taught in the manuals of the time). The method is to zero your rifle at 300 yards and this guarantees a hit somewhere on the body at any range up to 400 yards. Once zeroed Harry wouldn't touch his elevation drum, let alone worry about clicks. Experience told him when to aim up or down a bit. He pulled off a snap shot at a German senior officer at 600 yards using this technique - he hit his target! After the war Harry remained in Germany waiting to be demobbed, along with hundreds of thousands of other Allied troops. In 1946 a skill at arms competition was held amongst all the Allied forces (this was mainly to keep the troops motivated). Harry entered the 3 day sniper competition.The competition was designed to simulate real battle conditions - sleep deprivation was part of the deal with the snipers being forced to build hides during the night and then to observe/shoot throughout the next day on an unknown distance shoot that lastest 12 hours. Harry used his proven technique and Parker Hale monopod rifle rest. Lots of money was riding on his performance as his battalion knew how good he was. Suffice to say Harry won and received a gold medal - I've seen the medal and if anyone can claim to be the best Allied sniper of WW2 - then Harry has the medal and scars to prove it. Both Peter and Simon are right in what they say - but Harry was exceptional.

Nigel, Peter, Simon, et al. Thank's very much, gentlemen, for a fascinating discussion/ debate. You can't put a price on material like this!

Ridolpho

Thanks for that Ridolpho.
But back to reality. One PMer asks how a sniper using Mk8z ammunition with sight fixed/set to 300 yards, as described above say, would/could react to a nice big juicy target, like, say, a Brigadier getting out of his car at a crossroads or an impromptu OGroup meeting at the roadside 700 yards away. That'd be a fair question to ask, on the basis that any sniper would be able to engage a man at that range. Mind you, you'd be struggling with Mk8z in your magazine and sights zeroed for 8z and set for a body hit at 300/400. You'd be even worse off if you were using the No32 sight set at (anyone worked it out yet).

I have to say that on balance, I'm not quite convinced yet. But with enough persuasion, I could be............

Next, someone should ask about barrell leed life with 8z and the No2 leed gauge

:lol::):)OK I"ll bite - but actually because I'm relatively new and want to learn from experts more than anything else. This is on the zeroing front though. As is understand it the Mk8 is more powerful and therefore has a flatter trajectory that the Mk7 ammo correct? Sooo therefore the bullet drop would be sightly less over say the first 300 /400 yards but should exhibit a similar drop to mk7 after this point. What is wrong with a sniper simply zeroing in at 300 yards with Mk8 knowing that a flatter trajectory to that point will get him a hit at 100 and 200, and then also noting that at 700 for instance he needs to be at the 650 mark on the scope and keeping notes along those lines? it seems simple to me but i"m over simplfying i think .

Your q's have been answered pretty well in the first part of the thread. But why bother with all this faffing around and learning a new click table etc etc when you can do the job just as well with your rifle that is designed and made to shoot Mk7, a telescope that is calibrated to cater for the trajectory of Mk7 and the two, matched together as a pair that were actually matched for........., yep, got it in one........ Mk7. The PMer who mentioned the thread 19 hit the nail on the head

Nope, the use of Mk8z doesn't stand any degree of close scrutiny let alone a bit of forensic thought.

I wish your question had asked about leed wear with MG barrels using Mk8z and the No2 leed wear gauges. No, on second thoughts, let sleeping dogs lie and the original questioner can make his own decision

I for one would like to hear about the difference in wear using the MKVIIIZ and MkVII. I have read the ammunition notes regarding the non use of MK VII in overhead fire Vickers barrels that had fired MK VIIIZ and not mixing the two ammunition types. I am very curious in any and all technical details.

Now if the answer is the MK VIIIZ causes more wear, could you go into why that would be? I ask as the MK VII MDT cordite is supposed to have a higher burning temperature and as such I would expect the throat wear to be higher with the cordite. If not, I would be interested in the reason why that is not the case. The only possible explanation I can come up with is gas blow by (resulting in more gas cutting at the edges of the lands) because the MK VIIIZ ammunition does not have the powder wad. But how would that kind of war show up on a simple gauge?

Frederick, have you read good ol' Pam 11A? It gives a pretty good explanation, if I'm understanding your question correctly.

Quote:

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'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-

APPENDIX 15

(referred to in para.29)

USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION

1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.

2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.

3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.

4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.

5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.

6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

(c) Light M.G.s.

Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

(d) Rifles.

N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.

7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stencilling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.

8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from British weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.

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I have read that, That actually was the reference I was referring to. It seemed from Capt Laidlers comments that the MK VIIIZ wear was somehow more severe or that there might be a point regarding MK VIII wear that was not covered in the conventional wisdom.

I was asking as I recall a reference in a discussion on Cadets rifles where the good Capt. seemed to indicate the Cadet rifles shot equally well with MK VIIZ as well as regular lots of MKVII.

Of course it may well be that the use of significant amounts of MK VII ammunition in a 4T would preclude accurate shooting with MK VIIIZ or the harmonics of the rifle would not be ideal for the use of MK VIIIZ.

Thanx to everyone for your contibutions to my questions. I've now learnt that Aust Army snipers did not use Mk8 or Mk8z ammo in their No.1 HTs. One old sniper said that he wouldn't have trusted using the Mk8z in his SMLE - too worried that it'd blow his head off (don't know if this was possible, but it was a rumour among Aust snipers that it was a risk). Our snipers appear to have almost exclusively used Aust manufactured Mk7 ammo, which the old sniper said was reliable and plentiful (although he also liked to use the US Springfield and Yank ammo). The only exception appears to be the use by snipers of tracer rounds, mainly in Korea, to help them estimate distances. Does anyon know how accurate this would have been when they would have followed up with standard ball ammo? I would assume that tracer and ball have different flight / ballistic characteristics.
Glenn

Just a thought, but wouldn't a stopwatch for timing the time of flight give you a fair starting range? The same as the time between the crack of one passing overhead until the thump of the distant shot being fired gave a range for those trying to locate the sniper.
The point is, if you are willing to fire a tracer round at the risk of the other team seeing where it is coming from, why not just use standard ammo and have a spotter try to locate fall of shot over a few rounds, making corrections.

It is surprising how good you can become at estimating ranges to within about 50m. When I was doing a lot of shooting I would practice all the time when driving. Pick a distant marker on the roadside, might be a sign for a turn off or something, then guess the distance as you hit the trip meter reset on your dashboard. Estimating from 300 out to 1000m (in 100m increments on the trip meter) becomes fairly easy with practice.

One difference the discussion over the ammo has left behind, the Patt18 scope on the HT does not have click increments, but a rotating range scale marked in hundreds of yards that shows the 100yd increments getting wider apart the longer the distance... and no clicks, just a lockscrew.
It can be set to a known zero by loosening the two screws in the top and slipping the scale to the mark.
Attachment 36529

And here are the zeroing instructions (apology for the quality)

Attachment 36530

I know from experience with a Vickers Mk.1 that shooting the Mk.8 in a barrel well used with Mk.7 is quite an adventure. I detailed the results here a long time ago. To make a long story short, the target at 100 yards was riddled with perfect keyholes and the wooden target stand was shredded and fell apart after one belt! Dolf Goldmith sold me a new Australian barrel which I packed, installed and shot only with Mk.8 and it's perfect. You guys all know by now that I don't like boat tails in used Lee service rifles. I'm sort of set in my ways I guess and definitely opinionated! They are probably OK in a new No.4Mk.2 or rifle barreled up with a new or near new barrel but they're just a waste of money otherwise in my humble opinion. There was quite a bit of variation in bore diameter, especially in wartime production rifles which can also add to the boat tail problem. Stick with the Mk.7 or I like the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter projectiles for reloading. They'll shoot pretty much to point of aim of the Mk.7 if you work up a proper load.

---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

I wish a bullet manufacturer would make new 174 grain flat base Mk.7 bullets for reloading but there are none that I'm aware of on this side of the pond. The supply of good quality surplus ammo is very scarce on the ground now.