A couple of questions re WWII & Korean War Aust snipers

[Peter Laidler]

The last time we had No4T's that I recall, back into the mid 70's, we had a 'same-batch' of .303" green spot ball in the corner of the ammo bunker. Mind you, it wasn't in short supply then. But with regard to Bindi and the shooting with the Mk7Z or 8Z, the trajectory calibrations really did start to differ (just reverse a Mk2 Vickers backsight scale to see.............. I know that you'll all have one handy!) early on and the only way you could do it would be to zero in at, say 300 - which most did anyway and ignore the range scale below or above that, then learn a new clicker scale, this time starting from the stop to ), then to 3, then a new clicker scale from 3 to ................... God, can you see it already...... Sat in some dark old hide, cold and wet after a cold night on the advance into Antwerp, hungry, figuring out where you are going to shoot at the Officer doing his rounds of the sentries. You've got to remember the old 2-2-2-3-4-5 clicker scale in case you need to go back to Mk7 and.......

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

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[Simon]

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

Peter,

I don't mean to be disrepctful but I've known Harry for more than a good few years and have spent many an hour listening intently as he's been good enough to recount some of his wartime experiences to me. I can tell you one thing for certain about Harry (Nigel G can back me up on this) and that's that time certainly hasn't "played any tricks on his mind" and having spoken to him at length only a couple of weeks back I can tell you he's still as sharp as a tack. I don't doubt, and am in no way questioning, your knowledge of the No4(T) on the Armourers bench and the KD range. That said if the most succesful British Sniper of WWII, a man who carried the 4(T) and used it in frontline combat day after day for twelve months, tells me he sought out MKVIII, AP and tracer for occasional special use then I'm afraid I'm going to believe him.

Cheers,

Simon.

[Nigel]

I was going to keep out of this discussion - because I have the deepest respect for Peter's knowledge and I agree with everything he has said in this thread. I have known Harry Furness for 20 years and, like Simon, have met and corresponded with him on numerous occasions. I feel I have to support Simon because Harry has also told me and written to me about his liking of MkVIIIz ammo. Harry used the flattening the trajectory technique (as taught in the manuals of the time). The method is to zero your rifle at 300 yards and this guarantees a hit somewhere on the body at any range up to 400 yards. Once zeroed Harry wouldn't touch his elevation drum, let alone worry about clicks. Experience told him when to aim up or down a bit. He pulled off a snap shot at a German senior officer at 600 yards using this technique - he hit his target! After the war Harry remained in Germany waiting to be demobbed, along with hundreds of thousands of other Allied troops. In 1946 a skill at arms competition was held amongst all the Allied forces (this was mainly to keep the troops motivated). Harry entered the 3 day sniper competition.The competition was designed to simulate real battle conditions - sleep deprivation was part of the deal with the snipers being forced to build hides during the night and then to observe/shoot throughout the next day on an unknown distance shoot that lastest 12 hours. Harry used his proven technique and Parker Hale monopod rifle rest. Lots of money was riding on his performance as his battalion knew how good he was. Suffice to say Harry won and received a gold medal - I've seen the medal and if anyone can claim to be the best Allied sniper of WW2 - then Harry has the medal and scars to prove it. Both Peter and Simon are right in what they say - but Harry was exceptional.

[Ridolpho]

Nigel, Peter, Simon, et al. Thank's very much, gentlemen, for a fascinating discussion/ debate. You can't put a price on material like this!

Ridolpho