??Range estimation using grat on a No32/L1A1 Scope??

At the Trafalgar meeting last weekend I was lucky enough to sell a L42A1 to a regular customer of mine. During the transaction a chap came up to us & started extolling the use of the grat as a means of estimating range. I know this can be done with some scopes but have not heard this referred to with the No32/L1A1 before. He claimed to be an ex serving sniper, but who knows?!? He was quoting 'facts' like if the target's head represents the same distance as the top of the vertical pointer above the horizontal hair, then that corresponds to a range of X hundred yds/meters; if the torso represents the same distance then this corresponds to y hundred yds/meters. I appreciate a lot of scopes have been through Peter's as well as other scope repairers' hands, but anyway there seems to be quite a variation in this height from scope to scope which would surely render accurate range estimation impossible? Or have I missed something?

ATB

Hi Rog,

Looks like I missed you and NobsDave by about a 1/2 hour on Saturday, are you likely to be back for the Phoenix next year?

Ref your question, I've seen reference to the pointer of the grat being used as a rangefinder in both German WWII training manuals and the post WWII manual for the Swiss Zfk55 but never anything for the No32 / L1A1.

Cheers,

Simon.

I remember that the width of the grat subtends almost exactly 7 MOA on a couple of my L42a1s. Which happens to be quite convenient when a 25 yd NRA timed and rapid fire target is placed at 300m.

Makes a lot of sense to me, all I need is T to go try it out, lol.

I remember the stadia lines on the 106 Recoiless Rifle scope being great for estimating distance, but then a Tank is a bit bigger........Isn't it?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

He claimed to be an ex serving sniper, but who knows?!?

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Exactly, who knows? He probably didn't know who the was pontificating to Roger.

Another of those urban myths put about by wanna-be snipers I fear. There's probably as many 'snipers' or ex snipers out there as there are ex SAS men........... No..., maybe not but almost as many! I'm pleased that we all agree here. The falacy can be easily disproved by what I call 'the bleedin obvious'. I suppose that if the graticles were etched on glass under microscopic conditions in a lab. where everything was to within a gnats knacker of accuracy then it would be possible - as we see with the milspec S&B's etc.

But while the grat of a No32/L1A1 is made in a simple engineering workshop or repaired/restrung by humans in instrument shops to within a generous tolerance (the tolerance between the tip of the grat and crosswire) then the notion that you could use this as any meaningful reference point by which to bracket or calculate a range is farcical. I'd also say that if this were the case, then it's be taught. Instead, they teach the art of accurate range taking or better still, using your maps which are generally pretty good when it comes to accurate ranges!

As JM suggests, the THICKNESS of the post and Xwire do subtend to a obscuration factor

The down side to maps is that if you don't know where you are then.................. anyway, if you're a sniper and you don't know where you are then that's another problem. You'll need more than a graticle to help you then. I'd concentrate on my compass and look for some toilet paper!

DPL,
I presume 'gnats knacker' is one of those obscure armourers' technical terms.......?

ATB

Ah yes........ gnats knacker. It is a precise figure used by Armourers while working as in '......... just skim a gnats knacker off this and it'll fit'. However, it is a tad too precise to use when you're an apprentice where you have to refer to those measuremenmts such as '....half a thou'

Peter you mean he wasn't the 2nd man on the balcony?


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Thanks everyone - glad to know I'd not missed anything!

Simon; I enjoyed the Trafalgar - might have a go at The Phoenix if tables are available (so long as it doesn't clash with a Somme trip!).

ATB

a Gnats knacker is half a Tad but more than a Bee's ***!! cheers Ross

Roger,
I agree with PL from shooting point of view the L1A1 reticule for range estimation is not accurate, as other items snipers are issued with to do this job, not to mention the 100 yard rule... if it more than 100 yards or closer than 500 yards etc.. As for ex SAS men there seem to be a lot around especially after 1980 embassy siege...

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Originally Posted by DanL96a1

As for ex SAS men there seem to be a lot around especially after 1980 embassy siege...

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Yes, the Iranians would have had to have extensions built prior to the assault to get them all in.

We sometimes get Walts and fellow travellers at the HBSA table pontificating about some rubbish or other. Some people just let them go on but I like to get stuck in - just like I did(n't) at Princes Gate.

A police 'sniper' told me once that he was in the police equivalent of the SAS!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

A police 'sniper' told me once that he was in the police equivalent of the SAS!

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Crikey! It must be hell tabbing across the Beacons in those pointy hats.

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

- just like I did(n't) at Princes Gate.

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So YOU were the second man on the balcony :rolleyes:

I'm glad that mystery is finally solved! So what was it like BP?


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Roger,

Finally managed to dig out the page in the German Manual referring to using the Grat as a range finder.

Cheers,

Simon

They had good eyesight back in those days.

Cheers Simon. I recalled the Germans did, but couldn't have quoted you chapter & verse on it. Thx.

R

The Russian in WW2 had the same as the Germans in therir manuals will dig it out and also a methord of ranging tartget with a match box and a sniper ruler

IIRC at least for a few decades British sniper range estimation has been based on manual method (Mk1 eyeball) achieved by practice, with optical-mechanical aids as supplementary tools.

If you are in constant practice, you can achieve easily enough +/- accuracy for sniping purposes, without recourse to graticules or range ladders.

My forte was crest range (and angle) estimation for Rapier air defence missile sites - I surveyed thousands. At my peak, my manual range estimation error was usually under 5%, and often <2-3%. This was for the 1000m to 15000m bracket.**

If you translate that into the 100-1000m bracket for sniper purposes, I'd reckon my sniper equivalent should be easily capable of better than +/-25m at 500m, which would not be a particularly significant sighting elevation error for the purposes of hitting a human target (er, *** packet, thats about +/- 6" bullet drop difference at 500 yds for 145gn 7.62mm NATO; probably significantly less for current 155gn or .338).



How times change. I guess most of us these days are limited to wondering whether the foresight blade is somewhere in that blur at the end of the barrel .......




**(p.s. If you are a modern RA air defence subaltern and wonder why you are not equipped with a laser range finder for recce, its because back in c.1986 I consistently beat the original trials laser unit sent out by RSA GTT - aided and abetted by my autistic-savant driver who, although unable to spell his own name (Jones) could memorise and repeat the entire unmask range tables. The procurement was then abandoned. LOL....)

The problem with the German range/scale table shown by Simon is that once it is in the training manual, it becomes part of the course syllabus and thereafter, you can be rest assured that the end of course written or practical exam WILL have two or three questions about it or various aspects of it. I used to see the snipers sat up in the classroom in the evening, learning/revising the wind strength from flags formula and the old 'count the clicks' regieme (Even though I wasn't a sniper - or even a good shot by any means, I learned both scales by rote just by continually listening to it being repeated a zillion times on the ranges!)

It's a good idea to instead of making them LEARN something complicated like the German range scale table to give it out as a class precis with the words ' take this on board and one day, even if it's stored in the memory banks somewhere, it might come in useful........'. The Leatherwood ART scope that was trialled here was a classic case of overcomplicating something. After using the No32/L1A1 the experienced snipers selected for the ART trials were simply bamboozled. Major Txxxxy the trials Officer wrote in his summing up, words to the effect that the snipers would need a period of re-hab and counselling on return to their units after their 3 week secondment on the trials team at Warminster!