Another 1903/A3 cartouche question

I've looked at as many posts as I can find and am starting to see cross-eyed so thought I'd post this one myself.
I saw what seems to me to be an early A3, serial number 3039863, seems correct, should it
have FJA's cartouch? It seems to be a transitional rifle in that it was early enough to have some features of the '03 and others associated with the A3. I'm assuming that all A3's were FJA's responsibility but wanted to check. This one just made me think. It's clean but sanded
off all markings. I have no problem with that as it's not a collector rifle but curiosity got the
best of me and I thought I'd ask.
I've owned 03's, this seems like a much lighter gun, I expect it would feel like it when firing it as well.
Thanks for all the good information here. If I missed this information posted previously, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Bruce "Oldmartins"

If an 03-A3, you have the serial number (3039863) wrong. Col. Frank J. Atwood took command of the Rochester Ordnance district in June of 1942, so if it is an 03-A3, it will have FJA on it.

Well, I have an 03/A3 and read the serial number off the rifle, not sure how it could be wrong... I do have lousy eyesight these days but that's big enough to read pretty easily.
I assumed the FJA would be correct but hate to assume so thanks. Can't give you any other serial number, that's the one.

One interesting thing about the barrel band where the serial number, arsenal and model type is stamped, mine starts "outboard" from the muzzle area, as if it was offset so part of the
number is covered by the barrel band, seems odd. Assuming the band should fit up against
the protruding notch, where I've seen most all of them fit, it does cover some of the imprint
on that identifying band....

I can only tell you what it should be from the information you gave. If a 1903 Remington, which the serial number given is, it should be RLB. If an 03-A3, which the serial number given isn't, it will be FJA.

The receiver will have the maker, model, and serial number. The barrel will have the barrel maker's initials, and date of manufacture.

If you have the serial number right, the rifle is an earlier Remington M1903, recognizable because of the folding leaf-type rear sight. The stock would have been a "straight" stock with stock bolts and a RLB stamp. RLB was Roy L. Bowlin, Atwood's predecessor as commander of the Rochester Ordnance District.

In the past I've owned some 03's, shot a bunch of them and used that folding sight but not well. It's also pretty hard to miss, this one has the rear sight of an A3 and all features of
an A3, it was re-barreled with an RA flaming bomb 7-45 that specs out as new with gauges.
Can't explain the serial number but that's what is stamped on the barrel ring, right below the
"model 03-A3" designation.

How about some pictures, we love pictures.....

D. :cheers:

http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/desi...arrel band.jpg

Whoa! That is a fake serial number which has been pantographed on the receiver. It is too out of focus to tell for sure, but the other markings may be fake as well.

This is an 03-A3 in the correct serial number range. Notice that the 3's in 03-A3 are flat top, while the 3 in the serial number has a round top. In the fake number the numbers in the serial number are flat top also. The mechanic didn't realize they were the wrong font.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/14mvj9-1.jpg

http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/stamp 1.jpg

http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/stamp 2.jpg

The entire marking has been pantographed.

Yep, phony as a $3 bill. The "3"s especially. Below is a picture of the receiver of a Remington M1903 of approximately the same serial number. I'm sure you can see the difference. It also appears that the receiver has been ground or buffed.

Just for the record, the earliest M1903A3 serial number found, so far is in the 3,320,000 range.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-6.jpg

Sorry, will post more info later, football to watch......

Wait a minute....Receiver ground down? I'm not trying to defend this whole issue but I can't buy the receiver being ground, that just does not show up for all photos I've seen. And what's the advantage of a faked serial number?
I can't buy that the Remington and A3/03 has been changed, same font exactly. To wipe out the serial number, seems like they'd have to wipe out everything and start again. There is no evidence of the radius of the barrel bar
being altered in it's radius, it's continuous....

Now, back to football.

Well, football or not, we can see the lines that run across the numbers/letters that are not present on the other rifles pictured. Photos often show things that aren't visible to the naked eye. Look and compare. An entire marking would be eliminated to make the rifle into what you want. It doesn't matter what you buy or not...just look.

Also note that the step where the handgaurd ring slips over the front of the receiver is gone. This would definetly indicate that the receiver ring has been reduced in diameter (ground down). The right side of the markings would be under the hangaurd ring if it was present.The finish still has grind marks and an odd color. The pictures kind of remind me of some of the hand made firearms that the VC made during the Vietnam War. They would come reasonably close to replicating a firearm but would invariably mispell the manufacturers name or otherwise slightly miss on the details (like an incorrect font for the serial number).. Salt Flat

post a picture of the whole receiver, with the rear section as well. if this is what i think it is...yikes.
i belive this is a national Ord or Santa Fe arms cast POS. that someone has remarked, and reserialed to fake someone out.
the ridge on a real Remington is longer, and not as sharp at the edge.
ill be able to tell if i can see the rear bridge ahead of the rear sight.

Game over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Game over.

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Both literally and figuratively!! :D

Glad I gave you guys someone to have a laugh on. I'm happy that all your purchases have
been perfect and that you've never had a problem with anything you bought.
I just feel so good after spending time here. Sensitive and caring, you guys are the best!

not over yet,,,how bout a pic? i wasnt laughing.. iv been burned myself.
if this is a Nat Ord, that been remarked, i would take the rifle back, and get your money back, altering a serial number is a big no no, and altering the manfacture is a big no no as well

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmartins

Glad I gave you guys someone to have a laugh on. I'm happy that all your purchases have
been perfect and that you've never had a problem with anything you bought.
I just feel so good after spending time here

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Relax, these guys are among the best on line. You didn't post pics in the beginning, and sound like you think they're wrong so...

Would you have been better off if everyone had told you how nice and authentic it was. As was mentioned, altering the serial number is a felony. I would return the rifle to the seller.

From the Federal Firearms Act of 1938.

Section 902i forbids the shipping, transporting, or knowingly receiving, in interstate or foreign commerce, of any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered, "and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."[30] It is clear that the presumption applies only to the instant subdivision for only under this section is there any ban against such firearm.

Oldmartins, We have all been burned at least once as gun collectors and that is why we are interested and closely looking at this piece. Please do not feel offended. I personally applaud you for giving us a chance to examine this piece. Any negative remarks are not aimed at you but rather at whoever has faked this piece. You have come to the right place to present these questions and please continue to participate. THANKS! Salt Flat

Attachment 39343Attachment 39344heres a pic of a 1903A3 thats close to the serial of the one you pictured, compare the size, index, and font. also notice the guide line for the handguard ring is missing on yours.

Look, no one is laughing at you. If what you have is a National Ordnance receiver it is in your best interest to know about it. All the legalities of altered/faked serial numbers aside, they are unsafe to shoot and there are pictures of them out there that show just how bad they can fail. If you have the recourse to return it to the person you bought it from, do it. Get your money back and learn from the experience and use the knowledge you have gained to make a more informed purchase next time.

It is unfortunate that there are unscrupulous people out there that prey on the uninformed, and are willing to perpetuate this kind of fraud. There is also a lot on ignorance out there (defined as a lack of knowledge) and many times bogus guns will be passed on from unsuspecting owner to unsuspecting owner. Look at this as a learning experience and get your money back and move on.

We have all made mistakes in the past and you are lucky that there are sites like this that will give you the information that has been gained by others. Look at the pictures that have been posted of real markings on real military receivers and instead of getting mad and thinking that you are being made fun of, learn from it and then you will know better next time.

The law is on your side now. You can certainly return the rifle, as it is illegal to sell or possess due to the altered serial number. If the seller resists, tell him you are turning it over to the BATF.

i belive he bailed, i have learned that most people just want a chearing section, and not the truth.
its all good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmartins

Glad I gave you guys someone to have a laugh on. I'm happy that all your purchases have
been perfect and that you've never had a problem with anything you bought.
I just feel so good after spending time here. Sensitive and caring, you guys are the best!

---

If you took that as making fun, it certainly wasn't meant that way. I meant that the case had been proven. Yes, almost everyone who posts here has been burned, sometimes more than once. We've been there - we know how you feel. (or should feel).

Of course I feel like an idiot. No one likes to have their mistakes put up there for all to see. It's not a pleasant experience. I did not pay much for this rifle, I knew there was a chance it was not in great shape, but of course there was no thought of a serial number change. I have an FFL license to protect, I don't think this if funny nor am I against hearing opinions that are given in a kind and honest manner.

I moderate several forums and watch for this kind of post all the time, especially with a "newby" as they are not always ready for the kind of things that often happen of forums. It's a safe place to comment in ways that are not always taken as they are meant. I know non of you guys. I collect Garands, have never had a problem with phoney serial numbers, just know what to look for after many years. Just the comments like "3 dollar bill" are easy to take somewhat personally, right or wrong. I recognize the depth of experience here and respect it. I would not have posted here if I did not feel that way.

I just sensed an immediate feeling that I was trying to pass off something that was not what it was supposed to be. I've seen fakes, numbers out of line, not even in line with the stamped numbers above, that kind of thing. I know that's sad but common. What I might suggest is a sticky that details the kinds of things to look for and photos of fakes. I just felt mine was odd in that the same font used for the Remington A3 03, which looks original to me, was used in the serial number so it seemed possible that somewhere along the line it was re-stamped. Arsenals do some odd things from time to time. I'm not trying to say this is not fake, it's just difficult, it seems to me, to call that, with no question or regard, a fake so quickly. The internet requires a thick skin, mine just go real thick quick.

I'm posting some photos with the rifle back together, I wanted to take everything apart for a closer look. I found the R stamps in the right places, lots of pitting, you will see it below, and the magazine box is really quite pitted. Even the new barrel, which as I said checks out as nearly new, shows some light external pitting. I assume the rifle was stored in a higher humidity as the barrel is late war, almost post-war.

If you know someone well on the forum, you can take some liberties with what you say as they know you and realize where you are coming from. Nobody knows me, you don't have any clue about me and I realize that, but I always jump in on posts I moderate that seem to be heading in a direction where a newbie might take things the wrong way and try to create a long-time member out of someone who might be offended and just walk. I think the goal of all forums is to create a community of trust and respect, it's easy to do, easier to do the opposite. Getting off my soapbox now.

Lousy photos but maybe they will offer some more information.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R7-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R8-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13/01/R9-1.jpg

based on the new photos, i can see that it is a Genuine military A3, what i would say by the pics, is that it had heavy water or fire damage at some point, and likely thats when someone engraved the markings, including the serial number. as you can see compaired to the pictures i posted, the indexing and number font is not right.
with the heavy amount of rust damage, the receiver ring should have damage as well, and likely did before it was modified.
none of my post were or are an attack on you, only and observation of the rifle.
legality asside, i would be worried about safety on the rifle, and would recomend a rockwell hardness test. rust from flood or fire damage, can effect the hardness of the steel.
one for sure fix that iv done on other rifles modified in the same way, is to buy another receiver, and have all the parts installed on that , then destroy the moified receiver, or make it go away.
you can get a recovered drill rifle receiver on GB or other auction site for less then 200.00 if you shop.

That's my idea of the perfect fix, I've seen receivers, of course not when you are looking for them, but I think that's the way I'll go. It will repair and potential rust damage- assuming it's
better that this one which is not difficult to find....and hopefully eliminate the serial number issue. I really like the barrel, it's too good to throw out, but the receiver is too big a question mark... That seems like a reasonable way to go. I think it's a good rifle, aside from the obvious.

your welcome to contact me outside the forum for my rates if you like, my contact info is on the banner add you see..at Warpath Vintage.

email sent, thanks very much Chuck

OK, so Chuck can do the work (barrel replacement, headspace etc.) just need to find
the receiver. Simple, right? I wish. Thanks for everyone's contributions.
Best
Bruce

I don't currently have one, but I may be able to find you a receiver for a reasonable price. PM me and we can work out the details.

Thanks! PM sent.

So, I thought an update would be good. I appreciate all the help here and decided to see what I could do to turn this into a better Remington.
I started by taking the reciever/barrel to an old armorer who looked it over carefully and said he'd seen this kind of thing a few times before Extreme wear and salt water damage, nearly obliterating the serial number and making the rifle nearly useless. They were allowed to clean and rebuild the rifle and restamp a number from a list given them and use the fonts they had. It was the end of the war (barrel date 1945) and they just wanted it cleaned up and stored. So it was stripped, the largest part of the corrosion removed and a new number stamped, done well, but wrong font. Seems fonts were not the biggest concern these armories had. Getting the rifle out and with a number that could be read and recorded was.
Still, that left me with a rifle that had been somewhat seriously sanded down in the barrel ring area of the receiver, and a lousy fit for the stock ring against the receiver.
I decided to try the parade rifle route. Welded up barrel, bar in the barrel up to the muzzle
and welded cut-off. I found one for a good price and it seemed ok. All I had to do was get the welds off, remove the barrel and save it for re-bar and get working on the receiver.
Here's how it looked when I got it.

And the weld at the barrel/receiver


The cut-off lever was first, not a big fight but a lot of smoothing, this is about half-way through.

Then the barrel from the receiver..

Not too bad, some care with a cut-off wheel and some serious rotational pressure to get that barrel off and the receiver looked like this after some clean-up:

And during clean-up of the mating surface, almost done...


So, the receiver is a 1943 and not bad after some work. The barrel on the rifle originally was very clean, probably un-fired as the measurements were perfect, gauges just right so I wanted to re-use that. I had to parkerize both parts and used a zinc based parkerizing. I'm no expert, obviously, but with some care you can get a pretty decent result. I know there are guys on this forum that do it right and can get that green color pretty close but my funds into this rifle at this point did not make that a good option. Doing everything myself was about the only way. Now if I could find the photos before the barrel and receiver were joined it would help but I can't imagine anyone is awake after reading this far so I'll put the final photos up.




So I left the old receiver with my FFL, just to be rid of it and he'll record it properly. It will
never be a collector's piece but I hope to find out soon how well it shoots as that's exactly what it will be, a shooter.
Thanks again for the help and advice offered by all, I appreciate it.
Bruce

Well, that last post was a disaster, photo problems I've not run into before, I'll try again.
If this does not work, I'll just say I went the route of the welded-up receiver/barrel and have a shooter. Maybe that's enough anyway but I'll try a couple of photos. Just pictures of the
pre and post weld removal and parkerizing, rifle back in working order and at least looking like
a 1903/A3 that won't win any awards but should be fun to shoot...

http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/A la...t off weld.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/
http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/B cu...ld removed.jpg
http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/C ba...m receiver.jpg
http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/barrel with rod.jpg

And receiver ready for parkerizing
http://www.redshift.com/~gibson/Receiver 2.jpg

So I'll stop here and see if this works then finish on the next post with the final photos....

Photos are not working, at least on my end, will try more later....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmartins

somewhat decent rifle

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Well, it looks like one I'd like to have...

One more try

Moderator Edit: Incorrect pics removed at request of poster ...

Neat table though...

my ftp program is giving me fits, I'd like to delete that whole post (It's a 1900 hammered dulcimer I restored years ago and why it shows up when I add a photo to this post with
an entirely different name makes no sense.. I'm going to try one more post and see if
I can get the correct photos to stay up. Any moderator that could close or delet that post would be greatly appreciated. Now if we wanted to talk about Hammered Dulcimers, that would be great, somehow seems like the wrong Forum though.....
I've tried too many times to change it and my edit option no longer appears....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

Yep, phony as a $3 bill. The "3"s especially. Below is a picture of the receiver of a Remington M1903 of approximately the same serial number. I'm sure you can see the difference. It also appears that the receiver has been ground or buffed.

Just for the record, the earliest M1903A3 serial number found, so far is in the 3,320,000 range.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-6.jpg

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I think the OP's rifle will turn out great, i don't see him doing it any other way. Please show us some pics of it when yo are done.

Rick, here is the lowest one I have.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/00430-1.jpg

Thanks to all for putting up with my photo posting problems and to Doug for getting my account straight, maybe I can get these finished photos up and they will no look like a dulcimer....

https://www.milsurps.com/

https://www.milsurps.com/

https://www.milsurps.com/



OK, enough photos, again I appreciate the good advice here, I feel like I uncovered the
mystery of the odd stamped number, the rifle is back to being a reasonable A3. It was worth the time and effort. I like the feel of the original '03 but the longer sight radius of this A3 feels better as I shoot iron sights. Nice rifle.
Best
Bruce