mystery - No. 4 Mk. I

The more I look up the markings on this No. 4 I just acquired, the less I know. So I'm turning to the forum.

First, there's an "FR" on the stock, which I've seen can mean a few different things. The buttplate looks like Zamak rather than brass (e.g. compared to my No. 1).

The left side of the ring just above the trigger has the following:

N
12--- (5-digit number)
AN15-- (AN followed by 4 digits)

Then a little ways below that is two horizontal lines, almost like an equal sign (top line is a little longer, and is even with the top of the letters), and ".T.R"

It's marked as a No. 4 Mk. I, but it has Mk. II sights. There're a couple of the crown stamps, one just above the Nock's form and another on the bolt handle.

The bottom of the stock, just behind the trigger guard (so where the shooting hand would rest) has these:

M
(crown image)
T (rotated 90 degrees)
T

On the bit of the barrel that extends past the forestock, there's what looks like an "X" or crosshatch or something. Then it says ".303 2 22" " ... on the next line it says "18 (high dot) 5 TONS"

The barrel crown has a tiny (3mm or so) section that's threaded.

I can try to do pictures, but I only have a cell phone so it doesn't share details well. I'd appreciate any information y'all may have.

Posting pictures my friend, would surely help us out a lot.

The last bit, on the end of the barrel are civilian proofs, calibre .303 chamber length 2.22" and test pressure 18.5 tons per square inch...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hal O'Peridol

Posting pictures my friend, would surely help us out a lot.

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I realize that, but as I said with only a cell phone I can't get details really. Especially since a lot of these are fairly faint/worn. I'll see what I can do....

Edit: here's one showing some of the markings: imgur: the simple image sharer

Attachment 39918
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Here's a picture that the guy I got it from took, which shows some of the markings on the rearmost ring (don't remember the technical name for it): imgur: the simple image sharer

Hmmm. It is a little odd. It's only my gut instinct having seen a few No4's over the years, but it looks like a BSA Shirley rifle to me; the machining, the type of finish etc. This would also fit in with a serial number starting 'AN' & followed by four numeric digits; in fact it would make it a 43 BSA rifle. As others have said though, some close ups would be nice - have you got a pal with a decent camera?

The other thing that might be helpful would be to take off the woodwork & have a look at the barrel markings. I would not be surprised at all if you see a 'B' on it somewhere, together with a 43 date (assuming it's the original barrel, of course).....

ATB

It looks like the original serial number was "N 12161" which would make it a 1942 Maltby. It is hard to tell from the pic, but the back sight is either a Mk3 or Mk4, not a Mk2. The "TR" on the butt socket actually looks like "FTR" to me - Factory Thorough Repair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tlvaughn

It looks like the original serial number was "N 12161" which would make it a 1942 Maltby. It is hard to tell from the pic, but the back sight is either a Mk3 or Mk4, not a Mk2. The "TR" on the butt socket actually looks like "FTR" to me - Factory Thorough Repair.

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"FTR" would make sense. Also, the sights are specifically labelled "Mk. II" .... I'll look at getting at the barrel markings later today.

I'm speaking from memory now (which often fails me!), but so far as I can recall early (41/42 era) Maltby rifles never had the machined 'flat' on the receiver sidewall just behind the receiver ring. It is shown most clearly in your photo. Amongst UK production rifles it is found on both ROF Faz & BSA rifles, but NOT those from ROF Maltby. Not sure if they started using it later as my interest is mainly in T's which were only converted from early production Maltby rifles, before H&H started using BSA rifles exclusively for conversion into snipers. Regardless of the serial number that rifle just shouts BSA Shirley at me.

But you may well be right.....!

ATB

P.S. Just had another look at the photo. The 'AN' number is very lightly engraved below the very much deeper & hand stamped number, but I don't think I'm imagining it - I'm sure there's a number there.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

P.S. Just had another look at the photo. The 'AN' number is very lightly engraved below the very much deeper & hand stamped number, but I don't think I'm imagining it - I'm sure there's a number there.....

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There is, I just didn't reproduce it in my post.

The Mk2 or ll on the backsight leaf indicates that the LEAF is the Mk2 type, as in 'LEAF, Backsight Mk2' but the actual sight as a whole is a BACKSIGHT, Assembly, Mk3. Don't ask, just one of the vagaries of the UK Military VAOS nomenclature system. I started to explain this in the 'found some Enfield parts' thread.

With regards to the stores system, most Soldiers didn't worry toooo much about all the nomenclature crap. Their sole aim in life was to bamboozle the storemen (or blanket stackers as they were irreverently known....) and con them out of or just plain thieve as much as they could - by fair means or foul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raskolnik

It's marked as a No. 4 Mk. I, but it has Mk. II sights.

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No.4 Mk.1s can be found with any of the marks of sight. They were built with all marks and many have had the sights changed.

Looks to me like a normal BSA thats been over-stamped with a new number - or one transferred from a scrapped Maltby - during an FTR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I'm speaking from memory now (which often fails me!), but so far as I can recall early (41/42 era) Maltby rifles never had the machined 'flat' on the receiver sidewall just behind the receiver ring. It is shown most clearly in your photo. Amongst UK production rifles it is found on both ROF Faz & BSA rifles, but NOT those from ROF Maltby.

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Regarding the machined flat on the receiver sidewall, is this the area you are talking about?

OP's Picture
Attachment 39914

1941 ROFM:
Attachment 39916

1941 ROFM:
Attachment 39917

That's right TLV. There is a variation in contour there on the Maltby, but it's very different to the definite & larger 'panel' on BSA rifles. Thanks for the photo's.

ATB

Would the BSA receivers have all been machined like that in case of possible selection for conversion to No.4T?

I think Peter is best likely to know the answer to that. I often wondered the same, but I think it's there from the outset, even before H&H took exclusively BSA made rifles. Also, it does not run forward right to the receiver ring - it stops just a short way in front. I suppose there could have been plans to set the pads a little further back & BSA could have tried to anticipate this (PL has mentioned that there was certainly an allowance for this, but I think that was just so that the screws for the rear pad did not compromise the hardening around the recess for the locking lug, & it was only a tiny amount anyway; I think he's mentioned 'the width of a hacksaw blade', IIRC!).

Just had a look in the rifle rack & it's present on both my 41 BSA T's. I note it's also on Savage rifles, at least, early ones. It might be on them all, but I only own three Savage rifles & they're all 41 or 42 mfr. They all have it.

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I note it's also on Savage rifles, at least, early ones. It might be on them all, but I only own three Savage rifles & they're all 41 or 42 mfr. They all have it.

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I have several examples of Savage rifles from each year of production dating from early 1941 to late 1944 and they all have the larger flat panel.

While looking at the receiver wall of all my Enfields I came across one that you may find interesting:

1942 ROFM
Attachment 39968

Well spotted TLV. Both of my Maltby rifles are 41 dated, (they are 4T's), as are the Savage rifles I have (one Mk1 & two Mk1* T's), & I don't tend to look in great detail at later production rifles other than BSA's & Long Branches. The photo you show is most interesting ---- is it typical of later rifles do you know? Your photo also shows another production change in the Maltby manufactured No4 rifles as time went on; specifically that the 'ledge' running along the length of the receiver just above the wood line has changed from being radiused (as on all of the 1941 rifles I've seen) to being machined at an angle. I knew previously that there was a change at some point, but couldn't have told you in what year exactly. I wonder if the 'panel' & the 'angled ledge' appeared together in 1942?? IIRC during wartime production BSA & Faz always retained the radiused ledge, as did Savage in North America. I think Long Branch also changed from a radiused to angled type as production went on. Not sure exactly when though.

ATB