Flanders Flap

The "Flanders Flap" was one of those little items that I always thought ranked alongside hens teeth for rarity value so I was somewhat supprised to find two for sale on ebay on the same day and by two seperate sellers. The alarm bells started to ring when I saw the pictures they both appeared to be new, one was described as "used" the other did not state a condition, neither of them was declared as a repro. One of them sold for £204.99 (approx $312) the other went for £67 (approx $102) ,I might be a bit of an old cynic but either one person has got a real bargin or they have both bought repro items and somone has paid a lot of money for a very new piece of steel:confused:

It's not just those...it's every scarce item. I think as time goes on, all of us with a rare or scarce item that's original will be taking a chance that we'll be called humpers. Sad really.

For those newer collectors who may want more detail, check the MKL under this entry in the United Kingdom section......

1917 No.1 MkIII* Rifle (137 picture virtual tour ... click here)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

The rifle shown in the virtual tour is correctly serial number matched and in addition, is equipped with a very rare Flanders Flap. This flap was designed to keep the mud out of the barrel, but was spring mounted so it could easily be opened, or flip out of the way if the soldier accidentally discharged his rifle without opening it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

Regards,
Doug

I only followed the one and the pictures were so dark I assumed there were no marks to be seen or photographed. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a repo. Interesting item that I would love to have.

Heres a link to the one auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Enfield-...item232aadbf3e

Brian B

The indent on the flap looks way larger then on the original. The spring looks off too not to mention the hinge is wrong also. IMHO somebody paid real money for a fake and a bad one at that...

Auction information and pics saved for posterity and future research .... ;)

Regards,
Doug

Quote:

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Lee Enfield 303 Flanders Mud Flap | eBay

A scarce 303 Flanders Mud Flap for keeping the mud out of the barrel, specially made for the WW1 Smile


Lee Enfield 303 Flanders Mud Flap

Seller information charliesangel030818
Auction ended May 12, 2013 13:06:45 PDT
Winning bid: GBP 204.99
Approximately US $314.54
[ 22 bids ]

Attachment 43193Attachment 43194Attachment 43195

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I sent & received several messages with the seller of the one that sold for £204.99. I asked about any markings and he said he nothing about anything military so didn't know what to look for. I questioned how it knew what it was called and how he knew it was a scarce piece and his reply was "Yes you are right I listed this as scarce but only because thats what I have been informed I didn't even have any idea what it was until I asked and this is what I was told it was but they didn't say anything about a name or anything so I'm sorry for my genuine ignorance to this item but only put it on here just to see if it would get any bids." I then asked how he obtained it and he said "I know you said I listed it under original in the listing but didn't even realise I had done that, as you can see I only just opened my account and not really sure what I am doing and still trying to find my way around ebay. I found this among my nanna's belongings, it belonged to my grandad who died many years ago and we are having a clear out as she is moving into a home but she doesn't remember where he got it from or how." So as you say, someone paid mucho money just for a piece of steel and, of course, a spring.....

Here's another one

Incredible picture RobD......

That ones no good, it's missing the spring.:)

Poignant, though - fixed his bayonet and then...

.......that just reminds me of a yarn, he said
and everyone turned to here his tale.
They waited, ready with their mirth and ready smiles.
They heard no tale,
no further word was said
and with his untold fun
half leaning on his gun
they left him......dead.

Jester in the Trench.

I stood with the Dead, so forsaken and still:
When dawn was grey I stood with the Dead.
And my slow heart said, ‘You must kill, you must kill:
‘Soldier, soldier, morning is red’.

On the shapes of the slain in their crumpled disgrace
I stared for a while through the thin cold rain...
‘O lad that I loved, there is rain on your face,
‘And your eyes are blurred and sick like the plain.’

I stood with the Dead ... They were dead; they were dead;
My heart and my head beat a march of dismay:
And gusts of the wind came dulled by the guns.
‘Fall in!’ I shouted; ‘Fall in for your pay!’

(Siegfried Sassoon - I Stood With The Dead)

My favorite...

"The age demanded that we dance and jammed us into iron pants. And in the end the age was handed the sort of sh*t that it demanded."
Hemingway, Ernest

Mike

Take a few minutes to listen to this:

The Skids - And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda - YouTube

I think its the best version of Eric Bogle's moving 'And the band Played Waltzing Matilda'

Looks like the seller had some "issues" with the buyer.

Lee Enfield 303 Flanders Mud Flap | eBay

Let's see what happens this time.

Brian B

The moral of the Mud Flap Saga is: it is very dangerous to have money way out in front of your expertise. Put the brakes on the money until the expertise catches up.

It's a fake sent it back for a refund which I recieved then seen it resisted on eBay .
I have reported this to eBay

Very, very wise words there Patrick................

I asked the seller if it was genuine (twice) he didn't reply (twice).

In 2011, I went to one of the shows in Germany and found a "Flanders Flap" for either 35 or 40Euro. Both I and the seller knew it is was fake but the price seemed fair. I'm 99%+ certain it was the same group from France that sells them on eBay.

What year No1 MkIII would it be appropriate for? It seems a pitty just to let it knock about in the spares box.

Best Regards,
Michael

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Originally Posted by FlightRN

In 2011, I went to one of the shows in Germany and found a "Flanders Flap" for either 35 or 40Euro. Both I and the seller knew it is was fake but the price seemed fair. I'm 99%+ certain it was the same group from France that sells them on eBay.

What year No1 MkIII would it be appropriate for? It seems a pitty just to let it knock about in the spares box.

Best Regards,
Michael

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They were made during WWI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Thank you but what year? I see that Badger has one pictured on his 1917 but would they be proper on an earlier piece. For example 1915 or 16?
Regards,
Michael

Yes, any SMLE that saw service during WWI. So it could be any rifle made from 1903 through 1918.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by How much

have reported this to eBay

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Seems to have had no effect. I doubt that they care.

Unless it's a fake infringing some big fashion house copyright or similar ebay doesn't really care. I suppose in fairness they're not equipped to judge if someone saying a very obscure historic item like a flanders flap is a fake is right or not.

In any case getting any kind of ebay response beyond automated is almost impossible.

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

getting any kind of ebay response beyond automated is almost impossible

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Unless they're sending YOU a warning...then they're all over it.

There is a repro Flanders Flap on eBay for £45. The same person was selling that at the War & Peace Show for the same price, 6 of us got together and asked for the price of 6, he got out his calculator and multiplied 6 x 45, and then him not knowing what a brass butt stock disc was, we left, no sale.....

But - be fair to the guy he is selling them as 'repros' with no attempt at misrepresentation :

"SMLE Cover "The Flanders Mud Flap" FF.01
A museum quality replica of this 1915 classic designed to keep water and mud out of the barrel
Copied from an original in every way with the exception of a couple of minor differences to prevent them from being sold as original.
Firstly we have stamped them with the makers name J&P (Jay & Paul) The originals did not have a makers name. Secondly we have finished them in a hard wearing matt black powder coat instead of the blackened oil finish of the originals. None of these changes detract the item from being ideal for re-enactors or as a perfect utility for any SMLE owner.
Our example will fit the majority, but should yours not fit correctly you will have to file a little off each end of the stabilising lug which fits into the foresight slot. See Picture"

Jay and Paul are good guys and make a lot of repro kit. They do not claim anything is original unless stated, but they do a reasonable job with their repro's. They do sell a lot of "dug up kit" as well as one of the guys spends a lot of time in SE Asia. Have a talk with them sometime as they are interesting guys. The heavier one of the pair is quite the character and we have had some good laughs at Beltring. They used to run (maybe still do) the mail order end of it under (I think) File 13, but I stand to be corrected on the name. Some kit is close but does need a bit of tweaking to be usable (eg: No.23 grenade rods).

I've used repro parts from Dugup to restore examples of WWI No.5, WWI No.23 and WWII No.36 Mills grenades. No complaints. My 6 year old son was also very pleased with the Roman coin I bought off their stall at Detling in August. (A little something to keep his spirits up in the torrential rain that fell that day)

Amazing what a bit of rust will do:

Lee Enfield 303 Flanders Mud Flap | eBay

I've let the seller know it's a Dugup repro. It'll be interesting to see if they update the listing accordingly.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

a bit of rust

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Looks like they pickled it in brine...