Confusing Enfield No4 Mk 1 (T) markings and look

Hi Bought what I thought was a bog standard No4 Mk 1. Upon close inspection found the following marks and items:
BSA Shirley plant M47C on left side of BUTT SOCKET 1944 and serial no. 1477 (?)
No pads but the 5 holes are visible but have been blanked off with screws ground down to the surface,
Plus Bolt NO7 MKII
Has ‘TR’ stamped on the left of the butt socket and a letter ‘T’ on the flat of the left receiver sidewall
(The ‘T’ signified a No.32 telescope had been fitted, and the combination met all inspections. Without a ‘T’ marking, the rifle could not have been converted at Holland and Holland)
“a ¼ inch ‘S51’ stamped on the bottom of the handgrip of the butt stock”. Mine does not have this. Wood base near butt clamp has TG or T6 stamped with ordinance arrow instead.
“a stamped telescope number on the front edge of the butt, just before butt socket” .is missing.
Front right side of the receiver just behind the receiver ring. (“A genuine Holland and Holland conversion will have a 1/8 inch letter ‘S’ close to the wood line)”. It has this S mark.
“rifles made in ’43 and ‘44 should have a MK2 scope” It does not have a scope.
Sight no7 (or N67) mkII. With F stamped on several parts (Fazakerley?) but battle sight has not been milled off.
Barrel has “Regulated by Fulton” stamped on it. Still has bayonet lugs on it.
Has 3rd angular swivel with long shank marked Parker Hale Made in England in front of the magazine.
Does not have cheek piece fitted but feint marks 1 inch down left side and 3 inches apart could be infills. All furniture is dark walnut.
Any ideas of the history of this rifle? Should I continue to shoot it (very accurate even without scope)? Im not sure what I have here. It appears to be a mixture of genuine No4 (T) action and standard woodwork with an original sight for period that has not had battle sight removed.Thanks
Paul

Paul,
Welcome. A picture tells a thousand words, & if you could post a few photo's it would speak volumes. However, I suspect your assessment may be correct. It sounds very much like you have a genuine barrelled action with replacement wood & furniture. However, the serial number is not what I would have expected. Does it look like it may have been restamped? Body pads do turn up periodically (be very wary of buying some of the copies available on 'that auction site'), & whilst not easy to do well, it is probably quite restorable.......
But please, if you can, let us have some pictures - there are lots of people on this site who will then soon be able to tell if it is real or not.

ATB.

Thanks ATB for replying. I too have suspected the serial number. However, it does not appear to be re-stamped but there are indistinct letters barely visible around the number but by no means part of it. I do have several pictures and once I figure out how to post them (after reducing size) I will.

Is the barrel stamped fultons or the "knox", the front of the receiver the barrel has been screwed into? Ive only ever seen the knox stamped but I learn more every day.

T's were sold for about $40-$45US at one stage if the adverts ive seen are to be believed, so cheap but accurate surplus, it would make sense to convert one to a target gun. Fultons would be a (if not THE) Gunsmith famous for setting up enfields to shoot targets. Their work would be of a very high standard, so holes being filled with screws and filed back in would be consistant with good workmanship IMHO. So lets say it was a genuine T, ended up in Fultons to be setup for a target shooter. If you take the top woods off does it look centre bedded? Any other parts altered? small hole in the trigger or rear of the trigger guard? Are the trigger bumps polished? seer polished? I guess what Im tying to establish is if the only part left is a fulton barrel. If the receiver itself is stamped Fulton, personally I'd pay more for a good gun with that stamp if its all original, but then target guns are my thing. If what Ive seen recently is any fair indication 25% more. I suppose the only Q is does that detract from its T status (it wouldnt for me but collectors are funny ppl). Is the butt stock a non-std length? stamped, say L? maybe it was replaced by the target shooter to suit him, hence no S51 stampings. So need pics....

Paul,
Thanks, I hope you manage to sort out some photo's as it would be nice to see exactly what you have. I have bought a number of 'gutted' & 'targetized' No4 T's over the years & have spent a lot of hours patiently playing about with replacement pads until I got a good fit! For obvious reasons sniper's rifles were a common choice for gunsmiths to turn into target rifles after WW2. I bought a 1945 BSA Shirley some years ago from one of those 'ye olde village gun shoppes' & it still bore the front pad, but the rear had been removed as it fouled the target sight they had fitted. It had also been rebarrelled to 7.62mm. It was a nice challenge, re-converting nicely.

Re your serial number; generally 1944 & 45 dated BSA rifles will have a five digit serial beginning with a 3. Most will have a single letter prefix in front of the number, though the first batch had no letter prefix. During 1943 serials were generally four digit with two letters as a prefix. The first letter was always an A & then they worked through the alphabet with the second letter, eg AA 2345, AB4567, AC7890 etc. By Christmas/New Year 1943/44 as far as I have been able to assess, they'd got to about AV. They may well have made some rifles marked AW & AX as well - I'm not sure on this one, it's entirely possible as there would probably have been several production lines going all at the same time. What I can say is that I have personally owned both 1943 & 1944 dated rifles that bore an AV prefixed four digit number. What I'm trying to say is that you should look closely at your number as if it is a very early 44 rifle it could be correct with a four digit number, & it's possible if you look carefully there might be a couple of letters (eg AV) faintly marked in front of the numbers. Another alternative may simply be that it is a typical 44 rifle & part of the serial is obscured, or as we mentioned earlier it may have been re-stamped. Finally of course, the rifle could be entirely bogus......but I have a feeling when we get to see these pics it may well turn out to be the real deal that is just in need of a lot of love & attention.

If you're going to the 'International' Arms Fair at the National Motorcycle Museum on 22nd September bring it over to my table & I'll have a look FWIW.

ATB.

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Originally Posted by zak2013

Thanks ATB for replying. I too have suspected the serial number. However, it does not appear to be re-stamped but there are indistinct letters barely visible around the number but by no means part of it. I do have several pictures and once I figure out how to post them (after reducing size) I will.

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If you wish to forward them via email to badger@milsurps.com, I'll resize them and post them for you in this thread .. ;)

Regards,
Doug

Just a thought but the serial number if re-done/stamped, rings a bell with Hart and Whitaker rifles that were converted to range rifles/target rifles, maybe this was one that was converted to a target rifle and then converted back to No4 status ? Roger you will remember the one I Purchased from Dave and think that was in the 1400,s or was it 2400, haven't the register to hand but will have a look later.

Pictures tell a thousand words...

Lots of good replies and info there...thanks. Right here goes with the photo attempts

Theyre showing up so hopefully will pst. I dont have a photo of the "S"on the right but each time I inspect this rifle I find more marks

zak2013, Looks the real McCoy (the action) as mentioned in the PM, the resident experts will chime in at some point, just the bruising over the Regulated by Fulton I suspect a new barrel fitted at some point and the original serial Number looks like it has been scrubbed.

You mentioned New woodwork etc in the PM, I would leave as is and just remove the varnish, the rear of the fore-end looks like something has been done (maybe a Fulton or post Fulton thing)?

Hmmm. What do you mean by serial number looks like it has been scrubbed? My FAC has this number on it now is this illegal?

Don't worry about the deleted / scrubbed number for FAC purposes. As long as the FAC matches the most visible serial no and the one the seller submitted to the police you should be OK.

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Originally Posted by zak2013

Hmmm. What do you mean by serial number looks like it has been scrubbed? My FAC has this number on it now is this illegal?

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Nothing to worry about, looking at the pic it looks like the original number has been removed and stamped with another, as Robert303 says, as long as it matches the number on your ticket.

It's as good as gold, at least in the sense that it is a real T. As the others have said the butt socket has been filed in the past & the original serial number (which may possibly have been an M prefix), was obliterated & replaced with the new number. No idea when the renumbering was carried out, but I suspect NOT during its military service.

As Robert & Big Duke have said you've no worries re your FAC so long as the new number is on it.

It would make a lovely restoration project..........

ATB

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Originally Posted by zak2013

Hmmm. What do you mean by serial number looks like it has been scrubbed? My FAC has this number on it now is this illegal?

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Your FAC should show the serial number that is currently on the rifle. (In the past, I have had firearms on my FAC as "No visible serial number" which is also legal.)

My friend has a little Cadet SA80 on his UK licence recorded as a SAKO! When he queried it and told them that it was an SA80 they told him that that name didn't feature on their computerised list - so it's a SAKO! Well, you can't win them all.........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

My friend has a little Cadet SA80 on his UK licence recorded as a SAKO! When he queried it and told them that it was an SA80 they told him that that name didn't feature on their computerised list - so it's a SAKO! Well, you can't win them all.........

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That would be the same list that includes the following "makers": Lee-Enfield and Luger.

I often wonder why the Home Office do not employ some real experts rather than think they know it all and get wrong so often.

Phew! That puts my mind at rest. You hear some very spurious tales about Police confiscating arms for the stupidest reasons. Can I ask what you mean by a "restoration project"? What would this involve? I hate the scuffed paint on the metalwork. Can (or should) this be re blued? or blackened? A friend has a post war Enfield with light beech woodwork and very black metal work that looks lovely. Canr the blanked off screws be removed easily?

When I said 'restoration project' I meant that if it were to be mine I'd just have to restore it back to original T specifications; re-fit pads, cheekpiece etc. If available I'd source a set of Sykes made walnut woodwork & take my time in fitting it. The rifle would probably have been brunofixed but most were refinished by sand blasting, parkerising (dipping in phosphoric acid to help with rust resistance) & then painted with suncorite 259 black paint. It doesn't have to be suncorite........I'm told Land Rover exhaust paint gives much the same finish!

The screws can be drilled out easily enough & exact replacements are still readily available, as is solder paint.

It is very doable, if you want to........

PM me if you want any more info.
ATB.

Hi Mr Roger Payne.
Thanks for your comments. I`m not sure what a restoration would involve but I`m keen to find out. I have been hearing good things about a replacement scope mount you make (including from USA). How can I get hold of one and how much are they?
Thanks. Paul

Hi Paul,
See PM's.

ATB

R.

Some extra pics for comments on how far this rifle has been altered
I keep finding marks and numbers each time I look. I think the magazine is an addition. It has 48L1855 on it. Plus S in a square and B on it. The "plugged" holes appear to be the original screws ground off judging by the internal pic. I think the butt has been smoothed off removing the original scope number and serial number. The bolt head has No.2 on it indicating some wear (but bullet test in muzzle shows very little wear). The fore end cap has letters SM on which I dont know what they mean. Butt plate only has broad arrow mark.

Hi Paul,
Your rifle metalwork is definitely the real thing but I suspect most of the furniture is replacement. The butt is a replacement (unless there are filled in cheekpiece screw holes that have escaped me), the mag bears a Long Branch serial number & was made by Savage in North America. The rear sight is a ROF Faz & the triggerguard is Savage. The triangular swivel is a commercial replacement for the military item, which latter has a shorter shank so that it cannot spin through 360 degrees without fouling the wire loop on the guard. Difficult to say if the forend & guards are original - they could be, & certainly a 44 BSA would have left the factory originally decked out in walnut. However, as Peter will tell you most of these rifles have been through repairs & refurbs & armourers would fit whatever component came to hand first & was suitable, rather than looking for another part made by BSA or Long Branch etc. The SM stands for Singer Manufacturing - they made many small parts for the No4 & its original rear sight would probably have been made there (they used SM & the date till 1943 & then their factory code of N67).

Don't feel downhearted by this, it doesn't really matter if some parts have been replaced - you have already indicated that it shoots well. But I'd still want to get pads, a cheekpiece & the correct short shank swivel fitted......!

ATB

Phew. This rifle must have been through a few hands. There are parts from all over the world. Still. I like it and will continue to shoot it. I will get some pads for it and maybe in the future do a full restoration. I probably wont get my hands on an original scope or even the mounts but I will enjoy the challenge of iron sight shooting (as I always have with other rifles). I really appreciate all of the comments here. I set out to find out more about this rifle and you have not let me down. I will keep you updated of progress. Paul

Paul, Hope to see you later today in the meantime I would look at selling the hinged band at the front , you will probably get half of what you paid for the rifle or more ( would help towards the pads and bracket)

(pic 2 second row)

Fascinating, thanks....

:D

Paul, good to meet up and put a face to a name and I,ll get the info we talked about to you ASAP, regarding the front band I,m sure its a very early or one off a trials rifle etc, if you post some pics I,m sure someone will tell you what or when etc, but there was a hinged band IIRC going for around $300 somewhere....

If you do the bits I pointed out its just a matter of time waiting for the scope if you do go for one, like I said they don't come cheap but they don't go down in price....plus there will be a good few appearing on ebay amongst the normal run of the mill ones, and one final thing please don't be tempted by a repro as that's all they are and for the price save a bit more and get a real Mk1 or 11 ....

I second that sentiment about those repros Big Boy......... Absolute piles of shi............. er...... What is the word I'm looking for now?

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Originally Posted by zak2013

My FAC has this number on it now is this illegal?

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IMOH there is no problem.

For present-day authorities, the number on the rifle is to identify the rifle. The number in your licence is to identify the weapon (in this case a rifle) as being licensed to you - and nobody else. As long as those two numbers match, you have a legally licensed rifle. It does not matter who, once upon a time, applied that number. It has nothing to do with "originality" as collectors may understand it. What does matter is the match, which is why it is an offence to alter it unless the alteration is performed by an authorised person or agency (e.g. gunsmith rebarrelling a rifle and, of course, ensuring that it is reproofed!) and the alteration is duly recorded in the licence. Removing the number without remarking the weapon is a criminal act.

I realise that this simple explanation will not match legislation in all countries around the world, but the basic principle should apply in most European countries - the number is an identification that must match the licence, and removal or unauthorised alteration is a criminal offence, because it prevents or falsifies the identification.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

IMOH there is no problem

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Very much appreciated your comments. Thats put my mind at rest. Bigduke6 made a similar comment. I can now sleep at nights. LOL

Following discussion of the front HINGED band on my No4 (T) i was wondering if anyone could comment on its history? Is it a genuine Enfield piece and/or a training rifle piece? Attached a few photos but cant quite make out the stamping mark.

Paul,
You just struck oil! It's an Enfield made Trials rifle part. A standard common-or-garden fabricated type would be more appropriate for a rifle of your vintage & if you put this band on 'that auction site' it'll probably bring you enough to buy 20 of the standard pattern..........

ATB

Thanks Roger, Can I ask why its called a "Trails" rifle part? Whats the story behind them? If I do sell it it might go some way toward paying for restoration of my No4 (T).

Paul,
During the 1920's & early 1930's Enfield looked into the replacement rifle for the Mk3 SMLE & engaged in quite a bit of development work to this end. You may have heard of the Mk5 SMLE which appeared in 1922 & was produced in some quantity for issue to the troops for evaluation purposes ('Troop Trials'). After the unsuccessful Mk5 came the Mk6 (predictably) & by 1931 this had been subject to a few more mods culminating in the Rifle No4 Mk1. Approximately 2,500 of these rifles were produced by RSAF Enfield for Trials purposes & in the early days of WW2 many of them were converted to No4 T specification as production of the No4 rifle did not get under way at Maltby, Faz., BSA., Savage & Long Branch until mid 1941.

In other words, the Trials rifles can be thought of as a fairly small run of pre-production rifles made for evaluation purposes in the hands of the troops. This principle served to allow any hitches to be spotted & ironed out before full scale volume production went ahead. Obviously these days they are scarce & highly sought after amongst collectors. That is why your band is valuable......!

ATB