Early/ Late SA 1903 Salvageable? Input Needed.

I picked this up yesterday and the price could not have been better. Here are the details and questions.

Bubbfied Springfield Armory 1903 serial number just north of the 800000 "early production"
with the questionable recirvers marked 1-18 below the flaming bomb on the barrel. Nice patina with no rust or pitting and missing reat sight and front sight protector along with the obvious lack of furniture but the bore looks good..
Questions
1. No visable serial number on the bolt and non matching number on the barrel normal?
2. Does the barrel look to have been bobbed?
3. Opinions on the wisdom of a restoration attempt yes/no?
4.If yes on quetion 3 what stock configuration would be correct?
5. Correct designation 1903/1903 A-1?
6. Tribute sniper to hide the bubba holes?
This my first American milsurp and the lack of inital investment and the avaliability of the missing bits,stock,sight has me leaning towards some degree of a resto and I would appreciate some input from those more experienced and knowageable.

Looks like a nice hunter rifle. Resto'ing it would cost a bunch of money. Throw it on the gun rack for some kid that can't afford one.

jt

Very nice hunting rifle. Leave it alone.

That was kinda my thought. I'd personally like to have it as it is...wanna sell it?

I am a bit torn. While I have not shot it yet it handles nicely but not having an 03 or any US milsurps and having $0 invested makes the decision a bit tougher. I am not a trader/seller son a bit of an overinvestment dosent worry me.
I am new to the 03 forum. "SRS" is that a serial number quirey? If someone has access to a database I would be courious about this one?

What is the serial number?

jt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton

What is the serial number?

---

800556
With a barrel date of 1-18 and number M68075
Thanks!

With the exception of the holes for the scope drilled into the receiver, your rifle looks a lot like mine. I considered bringing her back to life, but after much thought and input from members here, decided to leave it as is and use it as a hunting rifle for the wife... that is, if i can get her to go hunting with me!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02_00051-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02_00111-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4721_710-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...164631_7-1.jpg

Could that be an original 1903A4 bolt? Just can't see it well enough.

Neal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal Myers

Could that be an original 1903A4 bolt? Just can't see it well enough.

Neal

---

No, not original. Any original A4 bolt would be undercut around the safety lug.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

I am a bit torn. While I have not shot it yet it handles nicely but not having an 03 or any US milsurps and having $0 invested makes the decision a bit tougher. I am not a trader/seller son a bit of an overinvestment dosent worry me.
I am new to the 03 forum. "SRS" is that a serial number quirey? If someone has access to a database I would be courious about this one?

---

No hit on SRS.
Given the barrel being full length and having both sight bases, and assuming the bore is in good shape, it is a candidate for restore, only if you do not mind the extra holes. If you have "$0" invested, or very little, feel free to restore. The rear holes on the bridge look out of whack to me, so a scope might not work well.

The most cost efficient way to go, would be to find any full length stock - finger-groove, C-stock, Scant, or any straight-grip non-finger-groove stock, as all would be correct for a rebuild.

A finger-groove stock will give you the most "authentic" look. I have found cheap ones on fleabay for as low as $125 and $80. Of course, these did not have any markings and had been sanded a little. That's what I would look for if you are set on a restore.

'03 handguards are fairly cheap and so is the stock metal you need. You could always get your money back if you parted it out.

Mike

I think I'd agree with Mike. As the bases have not been molested, I think I'd look at a "generic" restoration. The holes in the receiver pretty much remove the worth of doing an "exact" one, but, as he said, you have little invested so far.

[quote=Mike D;271110]The most cost efficient way to go, would be to find any full length stock - finger-groove, C-stock, Scant, or any straight-grip non-finger-groove stock, as all would be correct for a rebuild.

Zero invested. Your information will be very helpful if I decide to restore. Very similar to AWQs sporter. Might keep an eye out for the missing parts at a reasonable price before taking a decision. I am going to replace the rear sight regardless.
Nice video on Midwayusa about reparing the holes.

If it was a high number action I'd definitely restore it. Also, there is most likely a recess under the bolt handle that will need welded in too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Randy A

If it was a high number action I'd definitely restore it. Also, there is most likely a recess under the bolt handle that will need welded in too.

---

Can you expound on this a bit?

Early "low serial number" 1903 rifles are considered unsafe to shoot or as it has been told for a number of years. Look up "low serial number 1903" on google and you will pull up a grip of information. The issue waas a heat treating process that was unsafe. I believe 900000 was the cutoff to not be a low number. I have a 1914 dated serial number and have shot the crap out of it for many years but when I heard about the low number warning I quit shooting it. Mine is a WWII dated rebuild with a 12-42 barrel.

From what I have gleened the SA serialized later than 80000 are double treated and concidered safe? This example is 500 + north of that. The action on this thing is as nice as any bolt gun I have handled.

There were a few instances of case-hardened receivers "leaking" through just over the 800,000 "cutoff" between low and high numbered receivers. A good friend of mine had an 801,000 range receiver let go and there was one in the 802,000 range that Julian Hatcher reports in his "Hatcher's Notebook." The CMP used to classify any receiver 810,000 and under as "low number", although I think they were being overly cautious. I admit with one in the 800,500 range, I would proceed cautiously.

Thanks fellas for the clarification on the serial number range. I wasn't sure whether it was 800000 or 900000. :super:

It is interesting to me how much "transition" there was in the changeover from case-hardened to double heat-treatment. Supposedly, the process was introduced in the 750,000 range and the transition was completed in the 780,000 range. However, as I said above, a few of the older receivers "leaked" through. In the case of Rock Island, although the SURE cheangeover was by s/n 285,507, there was, apparently, several though lower numbered receivers in the 268,000-282,000 range that were also double heat-treated.

Kind of confusing!! :D

It sure would be nice to know for sure just which receivers received what heat treating. Mine is a beautiful WWII rebuild and I love shooting it but........

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P7240108-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Thanks fellas for the clarification on the serial number range. I wasn't sure whether it was 800000 or 900000.

---

Looks as though it is not quite cut and dry. In all likleyhood mine will not be used a great deal but I will "proceede with caution".

It is a fact that 800,000 is the "magic number" for SA manufacture. The story goes that Springfield found a small pile of unfinished receivers and put them into the production line after the double heat treatment process had started. Mind you Springfield did not destroy any old receivers and did not re-heat the old recievers, either. I have read the small lot was something like 20-30 recievers, but have no idea where that number comes from and frankly I doubt that fact. But Rick is correct that around 750,000 double heat treating had begun and by 780,000 all new production was double heat treated. But, Springfield still had old receivers/raw forgings in the system and they all went into rifle production. At 800,000 Springfield had all of the old receivers out the door. Or, so they thought.

UPDATE.
Decision time. For $260 I can obtain all the missing bits here http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/1903spfkit.aspx with the stock handguard etc... along with many parts I do not need (cheaper than purchasing just the ones I do seperately) that I suppose I could sell off to defer the cost of restoration.
I do have a question about the rear sight. The windage knob is not included in the kit. Is it required for mounting of the rear sight? I have not found any instructions for mounting of the rear sight.

I bought the same Sarco '03 kit to "rebuild" a M1903 display rifle for a guy that just wanted a "non-firing wall hanger".
In the kit, some of the parts are USGI, but there are also some chinese reproduction parts....
The lower barrel band and the stamped '03-A3 trigger guard supplied, are chinese reproductions.
Also the bolt, firing pin rod, bolt shroud/safety, buttplate, follower spring, trigger, lower band spring and mag cutoff in the kit I received were '03-A3 parts.
So if you plan to restore your rifle as a M1903 this kit is not for you. It just has too many of the wrong parts.

D. :cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dad

It just has too many of the wrong parts.

---

Good save! The search continues.
Thanks.

Scrapco has piles of junk. Try Bill Ricca and the Dealers Warehouse for odds and ends. Avoid any "deals" as you will get burned.

Couldn't agree more - the same is true of Numrich (GPC). You'll be a lot happier if you take the time to run down the parts individual and know you're getting the "real deal".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

It is interesting to me how much "transition" there was in the changeover from case-hardened to double heat-treatment. Supposedly, the process was introduced in the 750,000 range and the transition was completed in the 780,000 range. However, as I said above, a few of the older receivers "leaked" through. In the case of Rock Island, although the SURE cheangeover was by s/n 285,507, there was, apparently, several though lower numbered receivers in the 268,000-282,000 range that were also double heat-treated.

Kind of confusing!! :D

---

More than just several Rock Island lower numbered receivers were double heat treated. I was surprised to learn from the information in Nick Ferris' book on pages 67 and 68, that out of the 16,000 Rock Island receivers below serial number 285507, "some 5,846 receivers having the old heat treatment were destroyed." This would have left about 10,154 receivers. "These receivers had apparently Not been heat treated and were, therefore, held back to receive a newly developed double heat treatment. Since the receivers had been machined from steel billets having questionable chemical composition, the receivers were tested during March and April for chemical composition and scleroscopic hardness following double heat treatment. It was determined to test each piece after hardening by scleroscope and to reject all pieces measuring below 55 and above 70 hard. This insured that pieces too high and too low were not used. Rock Island reported that most receivers passed the test and were eventually assembled to finished rifles."
I don't know how many receivers the word "most" covers, but I figure that the number of double heat treated low number receivers that passed must've been around 10,000. John Beard, who is one of the most knowledgeable persons concerning 1903's on the planet, recently stated that "Rock Island Arsenal wartime records indicate that about 10,000 low number receivers were actually double-heat treated."
Rick owns one of these rifles himself. Apparently so do I. I wonder how many of these low numbered double heat treated Rock Island rifles are out there still? Without John Beards identification of our rifles, neither Rick or I would know what we had. Well, we can feel safe if we ever decide to shoot them! :thup:

Rock Island went to great lengths to ensure only safe rifles were produced, even destroying finished receivers. Sprindfield did not do this at all. They simply continued to march and produced rifles with no regard to low number/high number. Rock Island has a rock-solid serial number of their first high number receiver. Springfield felt 800,000 was the proper serial number for high number receivers. We know today Springfield was a least a little "off".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

We know today Springfield was a least a little "off".

---

Hopfully (In my case) "a little off" is not by more than 555.

I have 802,xxx and hope so, as well. The problem is much more confusing then we know. Serial number 800,000 was likely not produced after 799,999. Certainly produced around the same time but not automatically after. They had piles of receivers going through many production cuts intermixed with each other. Anything was possible before the receiver was seralized. So there is really no way of knowing 800,055's history. Neither do I know 802,xxx's history. Rock Island did it very differently and after WWI ended shut down all '03 rifle production. RIA also made nickel steel recievers and bolts during WWI. So they had a very different approach to the low number/high number issue.

HOH, Regarding the scope mount holes---I've posted this before but here is a picture of some plugged scope mount holes on my Arisaka receiver. You really have to look hard to see them. The front one is just to right of the mum and the rear one is almost invisable. This is really not too hard to do. I've done a few 1903's also. Salt Flat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salt Flat

This is really not too hard to do. I've done a few 1903's also. Salt Flat

---

Did you use the anneal screw,insert in hole, cut& grind method? The Arisaka turnd out very well.

if you search the gunsmith part of these forums...i posted a nice how to on plugging holes without welding

HOH, Yes, anneal or start with screws that aren't so hard. Some are softer than others. Also make sure they are not stainless. Sounds silly, but I actually plugged a hole and went to cold blue it and DANG!--wouldn't blue. Somehow I had grabbed a stainless screw. Anyway, Chucks instructional post is right on. Salt Flat

Here's a couple of more pictures of PLUGGED scope mount holes. Salt Flat

I am going to seek out the post based on your results. Sweet results.

Stock search continues. Is the only fitment issue with th4 1903 vs the 1903 A3 stocks the upper handguard? I have found a stock which has the A3 style upper handguard which fit well other than the tang recess
is a bit large (wide) when the action is dropped in.

Found a scant stock this weekend with handguard for $30! Perfect fit. She has the butt plate and rear sling swivel and the rear band retainer. It was very dry and dusty but a little BLO/turpinetine and the patina matches that of the action & barrel. I will post some photos soon.

Ok here are the results thus far along with the photo of my uncle I hope to display it with when complete.Attachment 46296Attachment 46297Attachment 46295

HOH, That's coming together. It will make a nice display with your Uncle's picture. Salt Flat

I found a few more bits. Parkerizd but they will do until better ones come along. Waiting on front sight and retainer and at least I can give her a go. Also found a very nice uncut 1905 bayonet sans the correct wooden grips. So now the hunt begins for grips and the correct scabbard. Not a money maker for sure but it sure is fun. Now if I can get my courage up to attach the bubba scope base holes.

Lookin good,,,,


The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.

Douglas MacArthur

What was your reason for choosing to put a scant grip stock on your rifle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fred G.

What was your reason for choosing to put a scant grip stock on your rifle?

---

Price,and price alone. $30 vs the $170 for repro and $200+ for original takeoffs of unknown quality (E-bay,) or $75 to $100 (Sarco,Numrich). I would much prefer an original WWI vintage stock and will continue to keep a lookout for a good match with matching patina and strong markings. I did the same with the parked metal parts. I wanted the oppertunity to shoot the rifle and avoid having an incomplete rifle laying about.

Yes, I understand that. I think that if you keep looking on eBay, eventually you will catch one up for auction or sale that hasn't been culled from a collection but is really nice and solid. I've seen them as well as the WWI hand guards, although it appears you have one of those already. I seem to find a lot of good stuff on eBay. Keep trying. It'll be worth the investment to have the rifle back in proper form again.

Finally got a saftey installed and low and behold the saftey would not function. Researched threads here and identified the issue. The bolt is not closing completely due to a conflict where the bolt handle meets the stock. Looked up some pictures of the bolt and what do you know incorrect bolt handle. Is this an A4 bolt or a really nice gusmithing job?Perhaps if it is an A4 I can sell it to put me back in black and replace it with the correct one. Could I be so luckey? Very fun project either way.
Cannot believe some of the sharp eyes here did not catch the bolt.

No R on the bolt, so I would have to think this is a "modified" one, not a "real" M1903A4 bolt.