Printable View
Hello all,
Something I would like clarified if possible.
Would you expect to find the 'TR' stamp on a scopeless Savage No.4 (T) ?
Was the 'TR' stamp put on No4 rifls showing potential at Weelon or the manufacturing factory?
Would they not have a 'T' on the side of the body (being not fully completed with a scope)?
Or looking at it the other way, what stamps should a Savage 'scopeless' have?
Many thanks
I've never seen a Scope-less Savage T with the T or TR marks, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of the dozen or so that I've observed, all did have the H & H, S51 mark.
ATBAttachment 48553Attachment 48554Attachment 48555
1. No
2. "TR" was stamped at BSA on rifles selected for accuracy.
3. No, the "T" was stamped upon completion with a scope fitted. Many, (mostly 1944), H&H conversions don't have it either. The only explanation is that there was a war on.
Savage rifles were converted at H&H so should have the S51 and examiner's marks present unless the butt has been changed.
Skennerton needs to publish more of "The No.4T, An Armourer's Perspective" by Peter Laidler since they are now out of print. It's all there if you can find a copy someplace.
For those looking for additional information on Savage No.4(T) sniper rifle conversions, check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:Quote:
Originally Posted by wotter
1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)
Regards,
Doug
Brian: Where were the D6E examiners stamp marks typically put on the Savage T's? Looking through the collection of photos I've managed to put together I can't find an example of it.
Ridolpho
The examiner's marks will only be found on rifles that were completed with a telescope at H&H. They are in the same place as normal BSA produced rifles. On the top of the butt socket.
Not finished to 'T' spec, not marked - as it wasn't a T
Hello guys,
Information is much appreciated.
I checked out the '1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)' link, but I didn't read anything about what sort of stamps should be on a scopeless.
I may just have missed it.
However the pictures indicate that the 'T' and 'TR' are missing.
(The rest of the article gets confusing because it has a section on how to spot a 'Fake' No4 (T) which is a different beast altogether.)
Mention is made of Savage rifles being re-barreled with British made 5 groove barrels.
That sounds strange as I thought H&H rejected anything out of speck.
And if a rifle was chosen as having sniper potential, changing the barrel would be strange.
Skennerton does have the "The No.4T, An Armourer's Perspective" by Peter Laidler.
I got one from him last week; a terrific read.
Peter and Ian, I thoroughly enjoyed the way it was written.
In summary, am I right in thinking that:
- H&H had a some Savage rifles on hand during the No4 (T) conversion period from Nov '42 to April 46,
- Most or all of these Savages were Mk1 (not Mk1*)
- A few Savage rifles were fully converted by H&H when they ran low on other stocks of rifles.
- Some/most of the remaining Savage rifles had been fitted with scope pads and maybe cheek rests.
- These were handed over at end of contract and put into stores. (page 229. The L.E. book)
Does that sound about right?
(I'm one of those blokes who need it spelt out in 20 words or less, otherwise it all gets a bit confusing ;-)
Brian Dick also has limited No.s of the 32 scope booklet a worthy companion to Skennerton/Laidler book @$50.00AU landed in West Aus be quick as they will not last long
H&H did indeed have some Savage No4's & those were a mix of both Mk1 & Mk1* rifles (along with BSA & Maltby rifles too). As might be expected the Mk1 rifles are very low serials, often 0C range with 1941 or 42 dates. The Mk1* rifles are generally in the 11 to 15C range & are always 1942 dated. Most (?all?) of the rifles that were left scopeless were Mk1*'s although a few 1*'s certainly were scoped up; I have owned two or three & still have one. Judging by scope serials on the rifles seen they were all (at least in my limited experience) converted early on, as the scoped rifles I have seen bear serials of Mk1 scopes. There is still some discussion as to when the incomplete/scopeless' rifles were set up - it has been mentioned before on this forum that these rifles were partially completed at the very death by H&H so as to maximise their revenue from the British government before the contracts were cancelled in April 1946. That may be the case, though I am really not sure; there are definitely minor differences in the shape of front body pads that seem to have occurred as production progressed - only subtle differences in a radius - but noticeable to someone who has seen a few, & I have never seen a 'late' front pad on any Savage rifle, be it complete with scope or otherwise. Having said that, for purchasing purposes I guess it doesn't matter whether it was set up in 1942 or 1946, so long as it is a 'real one'!
The reason, as Brian alludes, why the early markings are so variable is that H&H received their early supplies from rifles that had been completed & were already in the system. That is also why there are rifles found from more than one manufacturer. Once it was decided that all future supplies of sniper's rifles were to come from BSA Shirley the situation became much more straight forward, with the initial selection being made at Shirley & marked by the presence of the TR on the butt socket. This is why the later conversions are much more uniformly marked.
Hope that helps.
From No4Mk I (T) to L42 AI
I’ve been fortunate enough to know the author of this article for sometime now, his knowledge and collection is nothing less than impressive, im indebted to him for fostering and humoring my understanding of Enfield’s and sometimes my slow uptake……..A Kyhber Pass knock off comes to mind!
From No4 Mk I (T) to L42 AI
By Graeme Barber
This two part article describes how two separate No4 MkI Rifles manufactured at Birmingham Small Arms factory in 1944 were selected then converted into sniper rifles. Part 1 describes the journey for .303 rifle No4 Mk1 (T) # R33857 while Part 2 describes the journey for 7.62 x 51 rifle L42 A1 #K34325.
Part 1 – The .303 No4 MkI (T)
Rifle R33857 – General Description
Caliber: ………………………………. .303 in.
Rifling & Twist: …………………… 5 Groove, Enfield, Left Hand
Barrel Length: …………………….. 25.2 in. (640mm)
Overall Length: …………………… 44.5 in. (1130mm)
Weight: ……………………………….. 11 lb. 10 oz. (5.3kg)
Magazine Capacity: ……………… 10 rounds
Rifle approval date: ……………… February 12th, 1942
Rifle Manufactured ……………B.S.A. Shirley (M 47 C) 1944 # R33857
Rifle Converted: …………………… by Holland & Holland (S51)
Scope: ……………………………………TEL. SGT. No32 MkIII O.S. 2039 A (Mfd by Taylor Hobson and Co) # 24860
Mk III Scope approval date: …. October 7th, 1944
Total Qty No4 (T) Mfd: ………… 23,177 Production from Sept. 22nd, 1942 to March 21st, 1946 – 9861 fitted with MkIII scope (as calculated by Peter Laidler)
“The Rifle not the Story”
Sniper rifles as described by Terry Warner were made for serious men on a deadly mission. On the advance, in contact, or in defence, the snipers aggressively pressed the battle to the enemy. One man or a pair might drop off a patrol, or creep forward to a hide, looking for targets. Troops relied on THEIR snipers to keep the enemy and HIS snipers at a distance. No commander had enough snipers, and the ‘schools’ turned good patrollers and shooters into efficient snipers. Any rifle built in wartime was used hard. If the sniper lost confidence in his rifle, the armourer had another. As Peter Laidler discovered during his post war training armourers continued to live by the mantle ‘near enough isn’t good enough but exactly right is near enough’. The sniper expected and relied upon perfection.
In recent years collectors have discovered the allure of collecting the No4 sniper rifle which has caused prices for good quality rifles especially with all Complete Equipment Schedule (CES) items to increase dramatically.
Consequently, there are some rifles of dubious background assembled using some mismatched or reproduction parts. The Latin saying, Caveat Emptor, has never been truer. Ian Skennerton advises, ‘Buy the rifle not the story’. Luckily for collectors and historians the British arms manufacturers were prolific with their use of stamps that now help define the life history of a firearm.
So lets take a closer look at # R33857 No4 (T) Sniper Rifle
This No4 rifle is one of 665,000 manufactured at Birmingham Small Arms’ plant in Shirley. As 1944 serial numbers are in the 30xxx range prefixed by either of the following –A, C, F, H, K, L, M, P, Q, R – this rifle was manufactured very late in the year. The angular sling swivel on the takedown screw in front of the magazine is another sign the rifle was produced after September 1944.$
If a rifle from two British factories (Maltby and BSA Shirley) was more accurate than average, it was set aside for No4 (T) conversion. Selected rifles had to have a MkI body, a Mk1 rear sight, a 5 groove barrel gauging at .301 inch, a split foresight block with both surfaces on the foresight blade undercut to reduce reflection, and be able to achieve a group of 10 rounds in under 3x 3 inches at 100yards.
BSA Shirley stamped their ‘M47C’ code, the year of manufacture, 1944, and the rifles serial number R33857 on the butt socket. Prior to dispatching to Holland and Holland a ‘TR’ was also applied by inspectors to the bottom of the butt socket to indicate it had passed the selection criteria.
Holland and Holland’s workmanship was scrupulously by the book and the quality of the sniper rifles is recognised by all authors as the definitive standard. Theirs was the only UK-based factory for the No4 (T) except for 1400 (approx) 1930 ‘s dated No4 Trials Rifles converted at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield. Their first contract delivery was in November 1942 and the last in April 1946, likely using a 1945 dated receiver.
The new arrivals were inspected and only those that met the standard were converted as the contract price did not allow for any swapping or up grading of parts.
The first step was to completely strip the rifle with all parts wired to suitably numbered ex P14 brass butt discs to ensure they were all able to be reunited at the conclusion of the conversion process. The left side of the action body was milled to create a flat surface. For this rifle the model marks, No4 MkI, disappeared leaving only its, barely visible, serial number R33857.
Thanks to Ian Skennerton and Peter Laidler we now have a very precise description of the steps involved in manufacturing and connecting the pads to the rifle. The front pad was sweated on and screwed in place with three raised head 4BA screws. The rear pad cut from a partially shaped steel bar was also sweated in place this time with two flat head 4BA screws. The pads were then machined on to the body to ensure they were parallel, both vertically and horizontally, to the bore. The front pad spigot was machined then drilled and tapped with a ¼ inch BSF hole. The rear pads top and bottom angular surfaces were machined exactly in line with the bore then drilled and tapped through the body as well with a ¼ inch BSF hole.
Staking the end of the 5 screw slots with a pin punch was an uncomplicated way to lock a screw head. More than one stake per screw head, indicated the pad had been removed or replaced, either for repair or overhaul. A single stake mark on all screws suggests this rifle was newly converted and not refinished.
The partially finished cast bracket manufactured by Dalglish and Son’s Glasgow had a spigot machined on it that perfectly matched the spigot on the front pad. Following machining for the thumbscrews the bracket was machined and fitted with matched rings stamped 756 & 757 and No32 MkIII scope number 24860 purchased from Taylor, Hobson and Co. There were two other British manufacturers of the MkIII scope – Cooke Troughton & Simms and A. Kershaw & Son. MkIII scopes contained the new style anti backlash mechanism and an improved slipping scale drum. The red painted W signifies waterproofing and the blue painted B on this scope signifies blooming to improve light gathering properties during low light or poor visibility. It has 3x power magnification and an 8inch Field of View (FOV). The range and deflection increments are one Minute of Angle (MOA) which equates to one inch per click at 100 yards.
he scope was then collimated to the rifle to ensure the scope lined up perfectly with the bore. This ‘mating’ process matched rifle and scope for life. As the serial number R 33857 is stamped on the rear leg this would indicate this rifle was converted no earlier than towards the end of the war.
The battle aperture from the Mk1 back sight was removed to allow the scope to sit as low as possible and surface ground flat prior to blackening via a chemical brunofixing process. Unofficially these modified back sights are described as MkI/I. The 1/8inch ‘S’ stamped on the small flat on the right side of the body indicates after conversion that the iron sights did not need to be re-zeroed.
This rifle was then heated to red hot, around 740 degrees Celsius, then dipped in oil. The mottled finish on this rifle indicates that the oil caught fire during the cooling off process leaving carbonaceous material.
A dark stained beech wooden cheek piece was fitted to this rifles normal length butt measuring 12 ¼ inches using a 1 ¼ inch wood screw in the front and a 1 ½ inch wood screw in the rear. The Holland and Holland code ‘S 51’ was then stamped in ¼ inch letters on the bottom of the handgrip of the butt.
The scope number 24860 was stamped on the top of the butt wrist with the rifle number stamped in front of it hidden with in the butt socket.
As all screws on this rifle bear no evidence of being touch by a screwdriver since conversion I am reluctant to disassemble the rifle. The English Walnut woodwork on this rifle also numbered R33857 still shows fine scratching caused during the cross grain sandpapering process at BSA Shirley.
The rear sight and scopes were sighted in at 400 yards to ‘guarantee’ a body shot at any range out to 600 yards. With their renowned accuracy the No4 (T) was very capable of putting “round holes in square heads”.
One of three Enfield Examiners examined R33857 and stamped a ‘T’ next to the ejector screw signifying a No.32 telescope had been fitted, and the combination had met all inspections. A final examiners stamp was applied to the right hand rear of the action just in front of the scope number at the wrist. A stamp in this position is only found on No4 rifles that were converted to sniper rifles.
The last stage of the conversion was to assemble the accessories according to the Complete Equipment Schedule.
Cinders, I think you missed the point of the OP. I don't think your reply has anything to do with Savages?Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
My 1942 dated Savage No4MkI "T" does not have a:
TR, T, S, nor D6E ect.
It does however wear a 1945 dated Enfield 5groove replacement barrel.
---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------
Terry's little primer on "spotting" "fake" No4 T's is ONLY applicable to BSA No4MkI rifles converted at H&H in 1944, '45 and '46.Quote:
Originally Posted by wotter
It really has little to no information on rifles converted at Enfield and H&H in 1941, '42 & '43 - and should not (never??) be used to refer to them...(Enfield, Maltby, Savage and BSA) in my (apparently) not so humble opinion...
Lee Enfield I realise that but it may be useful for some one else to get grounding and go from there and onto different threads my 44 BSA T has more stampings on it than baubles on an xmas tree I lent Wotter my book of Skennerton's the British Sniper so he can look into the subject more Strattons collectors only book on the 4-5 turned up not much as did E B Reynolds book so he has gone off to ruminate on the rifle.
The weapon is at the right price it is just a case of ensuring it is cochre and not a lemon
Maybe wotter could get us some photo's of said rifle? I'm sure there'd then be a queue of people lining up to give their opinion on it!
By the way, 'grammatical error' was not supposed to be the title of my last posting on this thread; I just hit 'edit posting' & then put the reason for editing in the wrong box!
I will contact Wotter tonight by e mail and see if he can post them for the forum......
The conent being referenced was published three years ago here as MKL articles by member Graeme "broadarrow303" Barber.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
For everyone's benefit and to read the complete article set for proper context, here are the links in the Knowledge Library.
Milsurps Knowledge Library - From No4 Mk I (T) to L42 AI - Part 1 (by Graeme 'broadarrow303' Barber)
Milsurps Knowledge Library - From No4 Mk I (T) to L42 AI - Part 2 (by Graeme 'broadarrow303' Barber)
Regards,
Doug
I've had a dozen or so Savage No.4T's over the years, mostly Mk.1*. I still have one scopeless Mk.1, sn. 0C160. It retains it's original 6 groove barrel. All the Mk.1* rifles that I've seen had five groove barrels as installed at H&H. All were in excellent to near new condition. if memory serves, there was one with a matching numbered British walnut forend fitted so some Savage birch forends must have been replaced during conversion at H&H.
As we are on the subject of Savage snipers, I just wanted to tug on a few coat tails regarding some markings. I noticed these markings when I pulled my Savage No.4(T) off the wall tonight and removed the rear handguard. I'd not noticed these markings before and wondered if others have them on their rifles as so little has been published on the Savage T's.
There is a "P" on the rear of the receiver behind the receiver wall on the right side. Also the P is found on the barrel along with another odd looking broad arrow of a type I have not noticed before on a No.4. Plus another marking (inspector??) that looks like a 1.
The rifle is scoped albeit mismatched, but numbered on the wrist, mount JA marked in a crest and rings with alpha labeling.
The pictures say it all....
Comments gentlemen.
Attachment 48576Attachment 48577Attachment 48578Attachment 48579
I have a 1944 M47C TR receiver here that has the "S" and both Enfield examiner's marks, as well as the usual "TR" marks. It has never had pads fitted and was found as a stripped barreled receiver among hundreds of such that were among the leftovers of Castle Armoury in Vancouver BC, many moons ago. There is not a shadow of doubt that the markings are original, so it would seem that there are exceptions to those rules as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Mmmmmmmmm........, Surpmils thread 19............. While it certainly is possible that many No4 bodies were marked TR and one or two could be marked with the l;etter S indicating a sighting change of some sort or the other, the notion that an unfinished rifle could pass over the Enfield examiners bench and be marked with the D6E mark (and the T mark?) at Holland and Holland is not something I would be fooled or taken in by Rob........
Peter, I've got a BSA 45 receiver in my lap that matches Rob's exactly, including the D6E. The TR has been officially cancelled & I presumed being a 1945 rifle it simply arrived too late to be converted even though it was of the requisite accuracy standard. I have seen or heard of several others. Surpmil's is the only pre-45 example I've heard of. The other two or three were all V or X prefix 1945 rifles. Mine was obviously stripped down at some point but I obtained the body many years ago from our mutual friends at WWA & IIRC it didn't cost me a lot. I have no explanation as to how it acquired the D6E but I am sure as I can be that it is not faked.
If I can ever find my way around my new laptop (Windows 8 - very different to xp & Vista) I'll post pictures. I'll also post some of one of the early H&H conversions that bears the D6E on/near the knox of the barrel - something else that probably shouldn't exist but does occasionally crop up.
Hope these photo's come out.....
Now I'm getting the hang of it here's a couple of the 41 BSA (H&H conversion) with the EFD examiner's mark of D6E positioned just below the knox. I have owned another that was stamped right on the edge of the flat of the knox itself. I know the provenance of the rifles & to be honest the chances of it being fakery are negligible.
Comments on a post card please!
Warren, I couldn't quickly get at my Savage Mk1*T's but my Mk1 T 0C3XX does not bear the P on the rear of the body, but it does have the '1'. Instead of the 'P' it bears a small US flaming grenade mark. It also has the P on the bolt handle as per yours. Afraid I didn't have time to look under the woodwork.
ATB.
Roger, that is exactly what I have and while I know I have an old film print of the examiner's marks here somewhere, it's not where I thought it was. I do have a scan of a print of the offside butt socket markings and as you can see I was wrong about the date: it's 1945 and from the X33-34 series of serial number from which a lot of No4(T)s seem to have come. The cancelling mark is exactly as per yours.
Peter, was it written down anywhere that the examiner's mark was to go on last or was that the statement of the chap(s) from H&H who you interviewed?
(I'd post the photo, but the uploader doesn't work for me, again.)
As for the Examiner's mark on the barrel, could that indicate it was put on after the "metal work" was done, but before the rifle was restocked? It would have made little sense to set up the whole rifle and then remove the handguard to stamp the barrel.
Perhaps this indicates that the stocking became part of the inspection after the conversion work had been going on for some time?
I believe that D6E mark has been seen on a few other No4s that have no apparent connection to the No(T) conversion process, but I can't find the photos I hopefully saved of the most recent example, so I can't be sure it was not the E7E mark instead.
The "P" is a Savage marking, which occurs on all of the Savage actions I have, and all of the Savage bolts (some on the back, some on the top); so I don't think it means anything regarding snipers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
The "circled 1" is another story, and doesn't appear on my 1942 "T", but as noted previously I have a 1945 EFD MkI barrel installed.
4Cxxxx No4Mki(T) 1942
55Cxxxx No4MkI*
70Cxxxx No4MkI*
92Cxxxx No4MkI*
US military weapons of the era carry a April proof showing that they were Proof tested. It might be related.
Re the above............. I just find it incredible. So incredible that I cannot even think offhand of a similar analagy. Like buying a 1960 MGB GT for example. But that's just my view.
Hi Peter, I didn't mean to pee on anyone's cornflakes, far from it, but I've just seen/heard of one or two of these late rifles that were earmarked for conversion but then it was never proceeded with, yet they bear Harry's D6E stamp. Mine bears all of the expected conversion marks except the body side-wall 'T'. Unless any new documentation comes to light we may never have an explanation. Maybe our Harry was a bit of a lad & knew well that his mates had got the conversion process off pat by the dying days of the contracts & so took a chance & stamped up a few in advance so he could have a longer tea break, or 'chat' with the bosses pretty secretary?!?! Human nature is one factor we can't always legislate for (& I must admit off the top of my head I've got no better suggestions)!
ATB
Re my post above. I meant to say "a P proof". Autocorrect is not a good thing some days.
Back to the fact that almost anything is possible and nothing is set in stone!
Agree entirely Brian. There are two words I consider it most inadvisable to use when talking about Lee Enfields; one is 'never' & the other is 'always'!!
ATB
Here's the photo of the butt socket. I'll take another of the examiner's marks shortly.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../01/ixmt-1.jpg
Now to toss the cat among the pigeons...once again
Cleaning the boars nest and had forgotten about this one.......
enjoy.
The picture of the S 51 is a bit out of focus, but the marking has been cancelled by a flat punch.
Attachment 48683Attachment 48684Attachment 48685Attachment 48686Attachment 48687Attachment 48688Attachment 48689Attachment 48690
Er....... What's up with it Warren? Or am I missing something? It looks like a No4T without the T (or covered by the paint) and something barred out on the fore-end - unless it's the S51 barred out. But if it is that, it LOOKS like it reads ???1.
We could also read something else about this particularly worrying thread. It effectively ensures that NO definitive book could ever be written about the markings - or lack/absence of markings - of a No4T. And it necessarily follows on that even the L42's ain't safe either!
Don't you think these conundrums make life MORE interesting Peter? In fact it gives more subject matter for the author to write about. It's only a journal article rather than a book but I'm working on something for an association that some forummers in the UK belong to. It's concerning British & Empire Great War sniping kit. However, the almost total lack of uniformity & standardisation makes it fascinating to me. One of the problems I'm encountering is trying to keep it to a manageable length as there are so many variations - many of which 'shouldn't exist'; like a Watts scope in Purdey rings, & a Fuess/Periscopic Prism Co transitional scope in H&H rings. But you can only tell it as it is, question marks & all.
Warren, I presume your rifle has never been fitted with pads either? Otherwise, as Peter says, it wouldn't really be that remarkable (would it?). Did it really come in that transit chest though???
Sorry, I'm starting to ramble.....!
ATB
For the past week I have been watching a 1942 Savage No4 MkI T Less Telescope (0C5073) on one of the on-line auction sites. The bidding started off slow and I planned on bidding on the rifle, but on the last day, jumped higher than I wanted to pay. After 23 bids (11 bidders), it ended up selling for $1,370.00 shipped.
The Savage I was interested in (which prompted this thread) has scope pads and is stamped with a 'T' on the side of the body.
That is all.
There is no 'S51' 'TR' or 'S' ( on cutoff side).
It does have a scope and bracket, but that is known to have been added later.
This rifle was originally purchased in the UK in the late 60's early 70's.
So; Savage No4 Scopeless or wot?
Wotter, it could well be genuine & just re-butted. What would really help would be pictures. Any chance of getting any, preferably including some of the body of the rifle without the scope fitted?
Sorry, no photos available. Its located a ways from me.
I have just had it described to me.
I sometimes wonder about the 100 No4(T)s which are stated in The British Sniper by Skennerton to have been set up at BSA Shirley either before or concurrently with H&H starting their production.
Probably there is no way to identify these rifles now, and probably the chances of many of the surviving from so early in the war until now are small.
Scopeless No.4(T)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
No T on the receiver....that we can see. (or cannot see as the case may be)
TR on butt socket....
S-51 barred out..obvious
Retake of the first picture.....A little better focus
D6 on the top of the butt socket.
Attachment 48799
I just recently sold my Savage No4MkI*T less telescope rifle. I had just the rifle, no transit case. No T or TR markings. S51 on buttstock. Rifle SN# on buttstock tenon. No S on cutoff pad. D6E stamping on receiver just to left rear of boltway. '45 dated replacement 5 groove barrel. No "sniper swivel". Sold it on to pay some bills. Yuk.
Sorry for slacking Warren. My '41 Savage T does have the Circle 1 and "P" marks like yours, but unlike "Lee Enfield" none of my other Savages (14C, 31C, 57C) do on the bolts or receivers that is visible without disassembly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Ah, got it now Warren. The pics didn't seem to mate up with what you said. We couldn't see any sign of body pads in the photos (cropped?) so assumed that it was a 'padless' Tso to speak.