PPCo Patt18 Scope Repairs

I have recently obtained a No3T. Where the rifle itself is in very good condition, the scope is a little less so. It was advertised as "been refinished at some stage". To my horror it had been buffed, painted with a primer and then a mat black pressure pack spray (by the look of it) It honestly looked too offensive to photograph it on the rifle. Anyway after a bit of careful deliberation, I decided to attempt to remove the paint. The majority of it came off without much trouble, but the pitting left under the paint still has traces of rust in it. So as not to risk damage to the internals, (which by the way are very clear barring a couple of loose flecks inside, and all functions operate as they should) I stripped them out.
Now asking advice as to the best/ least harmful way to clean the tube and the most effective way to refinish it perhaps not to new, but to a patina that would be expected given it's age and use.
Tall order perhaps.. but with the couple of dings in the bell and the pitting evident, I think "new" would be wrong.

Open to any and all advice.... also on the topic of blackening the inside of the tube and the brass components,

Here's a couple of pics of the rifle and the close ups of the scope.

Attachment 49325Attachment 49324

Attachment 49326Attachment 49328Attachment 49327

If it were mine, it'd be out of the rings and straight into the bead blaster, phosphate and paint. We had an old Canadian No4TP rifle with a Lyman just like that and guess what.....! Not poriginal, but it can't be original twice is my opinion. It is what it is and you will never replace what's not there.

There's something remarkably honest and frank about telling someone who asks about its condition after it's been rebuilt, when you tell them that it was badly corroded and crap but it's been refurbished. Just like my old Norton Commando. It ain't factory fresh but it's standard and looks good.

Just my 2c's worth. But like I say, my pragmatic 2c's worth at that!

Hey Son,

Is that the one from the bloke in NT? Great rifle!

Craig

Yes, Craig... thats the one. The rifle is all original and all matching. The bore is very good, no sign of corrosion. Overall very happy! As I said the scope in very clear and everything works.

Thank you for your 2c, Peter. You are right, of course. I am glad I stripped it out, there is still rust evident under where the paint was, so I may have lengthened it's lifespan as long as I can clean and coat it with something reliable. I might research phosphating options... none at work sadly.... What sort of paint would you finish it with?

That is not a Lithgow so it must have some Aussie marks SON ???? not weaking and branching out are we.!!!!!!:D Will need passport and papers to go on the GREEN TARP.:nono:

I've restored a couple of the longer SMLE mounted PP Co scopes in the past and have found you can get a really nice original looking finish by blasting the tube carefully with fine sand or very worn grit and then simply chemi blacking the tube.

Cheers,

Simon.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

That is not a Lithgow so it must have some Aussie marks SON ???? not weaking and branching out are we.!!!!!!:D Will need passport and papers to go on the GREEN TARP.:nono:

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It has "Tarp worthy" markings

Attachment 49337Attachment 49338

Simon, are you still collecting details off these rifles? If so, what would you like from this one?

I came this close but I couldn't get a PTA from the war office so close to my last purchase!

Brad,

Yes please, PM me the serial number of the Rifle and Scope and I'll add it to my list.

Cheers,

Simon.

Brad,

If it was Mine, I,d go with Peters or Simons advice, but I,d rather use Aluminium oxide as its a bit more forgiving than sand, Two links below regarding a bayonet I did.

The stuff for doing the whole process is available but it worked out an expensive option to me so experimented.

There is a cold oxide kit you can get from Caswell, I,ve used this a few times and does produce various results it does a good job on 1907 bayonets, after experimenting you can achieve a finish that is a cross between bluing and phostphate, I,m sure this (the Caswell kit) has very similar ingredients to what DRP uses.

Caswell do other kits for various metals.

Black Oxide Kits - Metal Finishing Solutions - Caswell Inc


Jungle Carbine Bayonet Repair

Home DIY phosphate/ parkerizing process

[QUOTE=Son;287019]It has "Tarp worthy" markings

Attachment 49337Attachment 49338 Just as well mate i was a little worried.:thup: When is the next tarp showing:super:

Hi there

I had a early WW1 PPscope which was in almost the same condition as yours. Optics were crystal clear, all internals worked perfectly and the focusing was great. As it was pitted I viewed it as a restoration piece which any work I did could only preserve it further I believed I couldn't do any harm to its current value . Peter's comment is actually very valid and I share the same opinion however, it really depends upon what you want to achieve and what your happy with.. ie a clean presentable looking scope with no evidence of pittting? or are you just wanting to preserve it in its current state (Ie to prevent further corrosion) but still have the pitting showing through its finish?. As mentioned earlier, I had a very similar condition scope but mine was of WW1 vintage and the scope tube was very pitted and looked quite awful. I decided to try and bring it back to as close as possible visually to its original spec which I think I achieved. Step 1) Having carefully stripped the scope of all internals and placed all the parts safely away I submerged the tube in a rust eating solution for 24 Hours. It was retrieved and rinsed to reveal a completely rust free scope ( with craters) so step 2) Using a very hard engineering filler type resin which had steel powder in the mix I filled over the craters (tiny bit proud of the surface) taking extra care around the engraved lettering on the tube. The ocular housing on mine was brass so it was only the tube I did this with but you would have to take care around the ocular housing area where the engraving is on your Pattern18.

Once the resin had dried solid I centred the tube on a lathe and finely skimmed the resin back level with the remainder of tubes surface using a fine grade Wet N Dry paper which was glued to a flat piece of steel. This was to ensure even pressure on tube while buffing back the resin. Wish I had taken pictures but the result was fantastic, I could make out the filled parts only by the slight colour variation of the steel to where the metal filled resin was. For the engraving to be bought back to its former splendour I took it to the only place I know in the county I live in that still has original engraving machines from the first war period. The chap looked at the tube... within about a second he told me what the font was... what spacing it had.. what depth it would have been and how it was originally done he then took me to the same machine it would have been done on originally and said I can have it back to you by next weekend. Basically he went over the original engraving exactly and added a thou of depth to the engraving and where some of the letters had been obliterated by rust these were re born again perfectly.

The scope came back the next weekend and then all I did was to warm the tube with hairdryer and apply a fine coating of black satin etch paint.. which made the tube look like it had been given a nice protective coating of suncorite.. so correct. I still have suncorite got it from my old job but it only works well on solid steel not on resin so the black etch paint which had hard baked on the tube worked very well.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Mac

Best option from all perspectives would probably be to clean ultrasonically or with caustic to get all dirt and oil off, blast at low pressure as mentioned, then rust brown/blue it as was done originally. Brass parts carefully gone over to remove any protrusions caused by dents on sharp corners etc., then black lacquered as per originals. A binocular or telescope repairman could suggest a suitable lacquer. Suncorite wouldn't be very close to the original in appearance.

If the tube was to be painted, the pits could be filled after phosphating then smoothed down flush. A few coats with polishing in between and the pitting might be almost invisible. The contrast between the fresh paint and the original blue of the rifle and mounts would be a bit of a shocker though. I'd rather see the pits myself.

If rust browned/blued it could be carefully polished to bring the state of the new finish closer to the condition of the finish on the rifle and bases. No one could accuse you of fakery if the pits were still obvious and the new finish was clearly applied on top of them.

The worst pits on the rings could perhaps be filled with a little very careful TIG welding.

If the numbers match, heroic efforts are justified, if not, other options might be considered such as a different scope.

I would agree with surpmil, although I feel it is worthwhile, where pitting is not too deep, to strike it out with slow diligent work with a Swiss file, then progressively finer grades of abrasive paper. If pitting is not too deep it can be completely lost, & even if deeper can be greatly mitigated. If the scope is to be completely refinished I cannot see any harm in doing this, & it will permit of an original style rust-blued finish. Welding is an alternative & is fine with suncorite or other painted finishes, but tends to show as variably shaded areas with blueing. Great care has to be taken to rock the file during the striking up process or you will end up with horrendous flats on the scope body, but this is avoidable with care. It is also very time consuming & tedious - I have spent many hours just working on a single scope tube, but the results were worth it in the end. It is sometimes possible to hold a scope tube in a steady on a lathe & spin it, but this is something to be avoided where you wish to preserve original engraving (of course if you can get engraving gone over in the original font that is even better).

ATB

I held fire until someone else came along......... I wouldn't feel tooooo happy about all this filling and covering and....... you get my drift. It is what it is! Cleaning up as per Rogers and Surpmils thoughts are all well and good but much beyond that, with filler, albeit metallic filler, smacks of hiding something to me. Put it this way....... If you were restoring your 90 year old car would you be resorting to polyfilla? Or even if you were restoring your 80's MGB would you? Or what would you be thinking if you bought such a beast and, say, taking the door panel off you saw that the doors had been splodged with filler.

I recall some of those absolutely dire ex Indian Army telescopes that were refurbished in the usual bog standard Army workshop method. MInd you, it wasn't just the ex Indian ones either. Lots of the L1A1's weren't a whole lot better. And the saltwater silt laden rusty old No5 rifles and old Savage shotguns that got the same treatment......... Not the best looking but they really are what they are - or were!

Just my 2c's worth. Filler and all that stuff........... Even metallicly loaded.... Not for old time apprentices I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Filler and all that stuff........... Even metallicly loaded.... Not for old time apprentices I'm afraid.

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Do you use CAD or still draft with pencil. You use conputors instead of paper and stamps. If bog/filler was not used in restoration some things would have been trashed and lost dont be so harsh OLD FELLA the kids a trying to keep our history for when they are the old fellas and the grandkids ask about you.

Sorry Bindii, I have to agree with Peter.
Brad the scope, irrespective of pitting, is still a part of this firearms life cycle.
Be it good or bad, the pitting just shows that life just aint easy up the pointy end.

I can't see you touching up pits in a collectable just for show. Maybe you should just acid etch the remainder to give it a more even look, or find a time machine.:thdown:

I know exactly what you're saying Bindi but the word filler smacks of hiding something to me. When I restored my old Mini Cooper S, not an ounce of filler went in. I taught myself to 'lead-load' on the welded and joined steel panels. And in the engine bay/boot where the brake fluid and battery corrosion had attacked the steel I just blasted, treated and primed it. A sort of homage to its past very hard life.

And I know that you'll all be interested to know, we had no rain yesterday or today - so far! The first break for weeks and weeks!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

And I know that you'll all be interested to know, we had no rain yesterday or today - so far! The first break for weeks and weeks!

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........and we haven't had rain either, the only difference is we really need it.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

........and we haven't had rain either, the only difference is we really need it.

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Too early for rain over here Muff.
When the pits go through on some thing that delicate and old what would you do Muff.

I've been taking in and carefully considering all the options put forward. Even as a machinist and an armourer I have learned a thing or three from the contributions here, and I thank everyone for their time and effort.

I have always leaned toward restoration purely for preservation. I would rather leave the pitting on the tube and reblue over it than fill it or hide it.
My personal view, it isn't a new scope painted, it (will be) an old scope de rusted and blued to protect whats left. What I will do can be reversed at any stage if some future custodian chooses to go down a different road. At least I know the rust that was still present under the paint it had is now gone and should not (hopefully) be a problem again.

Thank you all again for the informative nature of the posts. Please keep the discussion going, I am sure many are reading this!

Regards,
Brad

Will be very interested to see the end result on the tarp.

If the pits go right through.......... lead load and make good! It ain't going to distort at those temps and the best bit is that you've replaced metal with more metal and not splodge!

Annanuvverfing chaps........... Never forget that no matter how good it looks, blueing USED to be called RUST blueing. That's because nobody likes to be reminded that all it is, same as the old Brens and pistols and No4's et al that it is really nothing more than controlled corrosion. The best bit is that............ or the WORST bit is that thereafter, unless it's hermetically sealed, that you ain't got any control of it!

(That';s not truly 100% correct of course as metallurgy is well beyond my mech eng quals and is a degree in its own right. But the facts are correct!)

Bindii, if the pits were through there are two alternatives(three if you throw it away)
1. clean back to bare metal and lead wipe. Problem is it will need to be painted, not original finish.
2. As the tube is pretty basic, make a new one, if there's a worry about the bell, cut and join under the mount.

Problem is the pitting is usually on the left side on these scopes, the right side is usually good.
Birchwood Casey make a metal blacking solution, this can be used on the inside Brad, or blue it.
The original finish was also on a reasonably polished surface, not dull or flat, however as previously stated, you could acid etch the metal to give a slightly rougher texture, making the pitting blend in more, or sandblast.

I don't remember if that blacking solution works on solder,may be worth checking,in which case the lead wipe repair could be feasible.

If you used an ammonium nitrate blueing solution you will also get the dull more even patina, as opposed to the normal blueing solutions, basically eroding the sharp edges of the pitting, and being less reflective, less noticable.

Very interested in your suggestions for finish, Kev. I was going to experiment with Birchwood Casey Super Blue. I have had good results in the past getting a deep, near black finish on small parts using several applications. What would your experiences say with regard to products for the inside, outside and the visible brass? We have a product used for putting an aged look on brass, it will almost blacken it, just leaving a hint of shine... cannot recall the name of it... "something Patina" Usually used for blackening lead solder in stained glass work. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to permanently colour steel.

Once again, any suggestions on what you guys have had success with?