Can't say for sure, the rifle appeared within days of the scope being sold off.
Enfield NO4T Sniper Scope No 32 L1A1 w Can | eBay
Enfield Sniper L42A1 308 7.62x51 No 4 Rare L42 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com
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Can't say for sure, the rifle appeared within days of the scope being sold off.
Enfield NO4T Sniper Scope No 32 L1A1 w Can | eBay
Enfield Sniper L42A1 308 7.62x51 No 4 Rare L42 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com
Yes well thats what the wrist number tends to bear out, sad to see them parted
Gil
Peter, what do you think about the rear body pad? With the enlarged countersinks it almost looks like a Long Branch 4T/L42. Suggests the pad has been off at some time. Never seen a BSA rifle with a rear pad like that before......
ATB
The scope mount clearly has No 36863 as well. Sad to see this rifle parted out like that. Hopefully the winning bidder for the scope/mount/tin will see this thread to know that the rifle is also for sale. ebay does not show the name/contact information for the winning bidders, so we are not able to notify him directly...
Looks to me like the rear pad has been off before and the holes slightly countersunk, maybe to clean up the punch marks or ......, well, who knows. The rear pads didn't work loose very often. The bolt is a very late one that usually found their was into the later spares stockpile, with the CROWN/RSAF logo near to the 19T proof load mark.
The rifle was sold out of Savannah Tennessee, while the scope was sold out of Chattanooga. They are just 220 miles apart, so there has to be a story there somewhere.
Property like these are of course the seller's to do with as they wish. If the best return is to break up the kit, then that is unfortunately what a seller will do. Thankfully most no4Ts are worth more these days matching than they are as a sum of their parts, so they are not being broken up as often. Perhaps it is because the US market is still slightly depressed, that a seller would lean towards getting the ancillaries onto the world wide market of ebay while being stuck with having to throw the rifle onto the US market.
As evidence of the US market's depression, how many quality pieces (ie LB sniper outfits) have we seen heading back to Canada in the last while, even with the import fees, taxes, exchange rates, shipping costs etc?
The buyer of the scope from e-bay looks like a fairly serious player in the milsurp game when you look at his history.
It would appear he has won every item he has bid on in the last while. Hopefully he is enthusiastic enough to be checking all the auction sites and gun forums for related items.Quote:
Sporting Goods > Accessories 1 Seller 1 23h
Collectables > World War I (1914-1918) 1 Seller 2 2d 7h
Collectibles > WW II (1939-45) 2 Seller 3 7h
Sporting Goods > Sights & Scopes 4 Seller 4 <1h
Collectables > World War II (1939-1945) 1 Seller 5 6d 6h
Collectables > World War I (1914-1918) 3 Seller 6 2h
Collectables > World War II (1939-1945) 3 Seller 7 7h
Collectables > 1946-1960 6 Seller 8 <1h
Sporting Goods > Sights & Scopes 4 Seller 9 21h
Can these L42A1 rifles still be sent out from the US?
Yes,you can export a 7.62 L-42.I know of 3 that have been imported to Canada from the USA in the last 6 months
DDTC changed their ruling on the export of 5.56 and 7.62 and .50 cal rifles at the beginning of last year. They were banned for a couple of years.
Looking at the GB listing the states he got them from a impressive collection. I think that means an estate sale from a deceased person (Just an opinion). The family selling maybe put everything up for auction or sold to different dealers at different times etc. and had the scope been on the rifle, they would have gone together but as the scope was in a box, the family wouldn't associate the 2 together.
Any one heard a collection being sold off in that area?
I don't know if the last pic is a page of a values guide book of some description or not but it would appear that the use of the 6x Schmidt on the L42 has moved from fiction to fact:surrender:?????
Well it must be true if its in black and white, surely?
Sad, very, very, very sad.
So they can be exported from the US to NZ? I know I can this end no problem as its a bolt action. The problem if any is the US side, I tried to bring in a Savage palma rifle and couldnt due to the US regs.
Peter - when bolts were replaced, were there any significant accuracy or consistency changes noted occasionally? If the bolt was dimensionally very close and materials consistent one would be inclined to think the rifle would not know the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
We only fitted a new bolt or bolt head when there was something wrong of course so by definition, something will have improved - but not necessarily the accuracy. The only difference I noticed was when the bolt face wasn't square with the chamber. There was a quick test we used for that. .
Divorce sale? I've seen sets of china split 50/50 before now, and for no other reason than spite.
Well, it looks like GE Fulton won this one.
I sent this to the ebayer who sold the L1A1 scope, but never got an answer back:
Dear g43crazy3puq,
Sir:
The collectors group on Milsurps found the matching L42A1 (serial number 36863) for the L1A1 scope that oxxxo just won from you. This rifle is currently listed on Gunbroker. Please forward this information to the winning bidder, so that he has the opportunity to reconnect this rifle with its matching scope/mount. Approximately 1080 L42A1s were converted from No4Ts, and approximately half were lost/destroyed. A matching L42A1 is an important piece of sniping history that should be preserved. Thank you for your understanding and assistance.
v/r
longebow
I know the seller of the telescope, have purchased parts from him before. He sells out the part which doesn't belong to his collection, he wants to concentrate only on German WWII stuff.
Longbow I think that you are correct to try and save this L42 from being split up, and if it is!! Then allowing both buyers to try and reunite them together as it would be a smae to loose them. I would agree that the L42’s are a unique bit of sniping history. Just out of interested how do you know, that more than half of the L42’s have been destroyed or lost? Simon according to Ian Skenneton book British Sniper Rifles of the Empire L42A1 had L13A1 (green S&B’s) in the 1990’s I assume this is not true? Must admit never seen one in the flesh, only in the book.
I talked to the seller of the scope, he told me he had anyway been contacted by someone who had told him about the gunbroker auction. He then contacted the man who had purchased the scope from him.
Dan, the Royal Marines took additional sniper rifles to their L96's to the Gulf War and mounted the L13A1 on them. The bracket does exist and has been featured on this site. I'm sure Roger Payne and bigduke have mentioned back engineering reproduction examples. I've said it before and I'll say it again i'll take two!Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL96a1
I had my fingers firmly on the pulse and never saw an official doc relating to the use of an L13 S&B on an L42. Certainly not at HQ SASC or ITDU. It was bandied about several times many years ago and mentioned by several other long standing sniper orientated forumers - who will remember it. So I made it my business while I had endless opportunities, on my doorstep to see what I could find. I saw a couple of Leatherwoods during ITDU trials* on one of the long mounts but an L13 will just not clear it! Additionally, and just like some of the black IWS mounts, they simply weren't interchangeable across the board. This became a problem with full scale issues of the IWS mount because a special instruction had to be issued relating to it. I did see a what can only be described as a ficticious photo of a mock-up L39 look-a-like with something akin to this fitted.
Sorry to sound negative here chaps, but............... If the Marines story has any pedigree I'll certainly take it up further/ask Capt Steve Sxxxxxs who was the SASC Officer at Lympstone at the time
*I had one and used on on my little L98 until I realised what a lot of faffing around it took to use one. 'A cold wet sniper wants simplicity'. Taken straight from the report by none other than Capt Stene Sxxxxxs no less!
Is that quote from DanL96a1 a reference to the Skennerton title?
There was an awful lot of nonsense spouted a few years back about how it must be true about the L42 being issued in Gulf 1 due to Ammo being headstamped L42A1. I know folk always quote "never say never" where the Enfield is concerned but I'll happily wager currency of the realm against anyone who can categorically prove the L42 saw "Official Service" in Gulf 1, sorry but it just didn't happen! I wait, and suspect it will be a long wait, to be proven wrong.
Cheers,
Simon.
I will do my Spitfires in Burma bet again to reinforce Simons thread. I will give £30 to ANY service charity if it can be substantiated. If you really want old stuff that went down there, then 4x Engineers Centurions and me!
you should know, you've just bought one in a US auction???????Quote:
Originally Posted by XL39E1
Sadly theres a Deac L42 for sale in the UK, it was issued with scope No. 23467. Shame, it's £1400 which I suspect is less than if it was still live.
DanL96a1: My comment of "half" of the L42A1s being destroyed/lost comes from my notes taken during several conversations with Brian of BDL Ltd, who gleaned this from Peter. Reviewing my notes, in my own order:Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL96a1
1. 10,000 L42/L39 barrels were made.
2. 7,000 L42's made (but more recently down-graded to 1080 converted)
3. Attrition of about "1/2"
4. Out of Service 1992
5. Navy Arms imported (into the USA) about 750 L42/L39 in approximately 1992, with 1/2 L42, 1/2 L39
I'll defer to Peter and Brian for a more definite answer...
Actually, I think I'll take this discussion up a notch, and throw down the gauntlet to publicly request/plead/cajole that our esteemed Armourer Extraordinaire Peter Laidler publish the definitive reference on the British Sniping rifles from WWII to present. I believe that there is a vacuum and desire for this information that could only be satisfied by one with Peter's credentials.
Why am I so bold as to suggest this? Data points:
Telescope Sighting No.32: An inside view of the Snipers rifle telescope by Peter, 1992
An Armorurer's Perspective: .303 No.4(T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland & Holland Connection by Peter with Ian, 1993
The British Sniper, British & Commonwealth Sniping & Equipments 1915-1983 by Ian, 1984
I believe that our community has learned a lot since these references were created (as everything produced by Man becomes dated), and is in serious need of updating. There is too much institutional knowledge that is scattered that would be best assembled into a book of the quality of the "Collector Grade" line of books.
Standing by for cheers of support, or empty bottles in disagreement... ;)
Longebow
I would like to thank you all for this information, I only know about the green S&B on L42’s with the reference, of what I have read in Ian Skennerton book “BRITISH EMPIRE SNIPER RIFLES”, which is described as being used in 1991 gulf war with RM, SF etc it shows a pictures of a very nice L42A1 with kit and green S&B.
Longbow thank you for this information I agree, I would like to see this information in to a book, as all these little bits of information would be lost in some 10 years time. PL do you think this was a unit experiment by the Royal Marines using the L13A1?
I would safely say that about half of the production/conversions were scrapped. There was a definate shortage at the end if the attrition rate of L42's, at the three main base level workshops down this end of the world is anything to go by. The figure of 10,000 produced was said by me simply because as you will very probably understand, I was not permitted to disclose certain details at the time!.
As for a book........ Good idea Longebow but writing a book is simple. Getting one published is the difficult bit. And guess what........? The bigger the book, the MORE difficult it is to get it published and guess what another thing...........? Yep........, the LESS people buy it! They prefer to borrow their mates and then quote from it later. I often say it, but I'm not a historian or an expert by any means. I am simply as Armourer that has been doing it a long time and has learned a lot about the fine intricate details of the inner workings of the craft.
One thing did puzzle me about sniper authors........... During my whole 12 or so years at Warminster, not ONE person came and asked us for, or to provide, any information about a snipers, rifles, equipment or photographs for a book. And we had all the course photos going back to the war! Strange isn't it?
Hmmm Old time shoe repairer springs to mind;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL96a1
There were some spares (whether "new" or pull-offs I don't know) sold in the US about the time the big shipment of L42s were imported into the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by longebow
Can't remember now if it was Sarco or Numrich that had them advertised. Gone by the time I saw the advertisement and attempted to order a few! Pretty sure it was Numrich. Early '90s Shotgun News advert, IIRC. Still wonder who squirreled away those bits!
There can't have been that much JM because it was the shortage of spare parts and the cost of that was the cause of their demise. The No4 type spare parts were fine. It was the lack of L42 specific stuff that was dire and the limited numbers meant very limited spare parts orders. Such as fore-ends and handguards and to my knowledge, brackets. Nobody wanted to tool up for these small quantities. You all know my views on the dire quality of the fore-ends
Didn't mean to imply that there's possibly 10,000 spare barrels hiding somewhere! Just a WAG but it was probably no more than 100-200. But more than a tiny handful or they wouldn't have bothered to advertise them. The 10,000 number seems hugely optimistic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Here's the old ad from Century International with some "Irish Contract" rifles .
There was a NOS hammer forged barrel for sale here some years ago. It was packaged in a wooden crate, about 3" square with a thin removable top cover.
I have the full page Shotgun News ad on my other computer. I'll try to post it sometime.
It may be here already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
The replacement L42 barrels that came from Ordnance came in a similar plywood box with the top nailed down and now that I think about it, I don't recall that there was ever a shortage of barrels. We did replace a load because the had sticking chambers with megga hard extraction that gave the impression that the chamber was bulged. It wasn't(?) of course but nobody ever got to the bottom of it! Polishing didn't make any difference
My L-39 chambers a round like it's 3/8" of an inch too long. Really wears the palm of my hand out closing the bolt.
I should have bought that barrel.
hah.
limpetmine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
What ammo are you using? The L39/L42 was tolerenced tighter than a normal 7.62 military rifle. More along target/match spec in US terms. It shouldn't chamber hard with factory ammo though.
Radway Green 7.62. I was able to buy a full case right after I acquired the L-39. That's all it gets to eat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Well, it shouldn't chamber or extract hard with that. Have you inspected the chamber to see any roughness or problem there? I have to wonder if someone has changed the bolt head trying to tighten it up. In other words, over headspaced it. Is the bolt head marked with the 19T proof?
Yes, the bolt head has the 19T proof. I've not tried to inspect the chamber. I'll borrow a tool from work and see what I can see.
Thanks....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick