Pre-WW1 SMLE No.1

No, not a MKIII
But a comparatively rare No.1 MKI, BSA 1905, with the charger guide mounted on the bolt.
See:
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4881520

I am posting this link to a current auction because someone out there might just have a family historical connection to this rifle. According to the seller, the stock disk is marked
9.14
3 COR
1638

9.14 is the date of the rifle being assigned.
1638 is the rack number
3 COR ought to be 3rd Batt. Connaught Rangers.
However, according to online regimental info, this was a reserve battalion that never left the British Isles.

So is it a different unit? If so, which one?

(Of course, the seller may, have misread the disk, and the story may be family legend)

What a neat rifle and story attached.

The rifle looks in excellent condition except the 'impact damage' and is interesting to compare with the battle damaged rifle in the knowledge library. Must have been a memorable moment for the Grandfather to take the banged up rifle rather than a nicer one which would certainly been there for the taking.

Wow. Other than the short bit in English, I unfortunately can't read the rest of it. Would definitely like to own this one.
Wonder what that translates to American dollars....

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So is it a different unit? If so, which one?

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Just about any 3rd Battalion of the time was the reserve battalion, largely tasked with training replacement drafts at home for the active service battalions overseas. I guess a lot of different scenarios could be possible though, given the times.

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Originally Posted by jrhead75

I guess a lot of different scenarios could be possible though, given the times.

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Rewording my query: is there any other possibility for COR as a unit/regimental abbreviation on a pre-1918 SMLE, other then Connaught Rangers?

Patrick,
I don't have Peter Laidler's book on stock disc identification. However, quite a good source for identifying stock discs is http://www.martinihenry.com/units.htm
According ot them, Connaught Rangers have the abbreviation CT
Have you seen a picture of the disc? I suspect the person has transcribed wrongly, for example 9.14 3COR 1638 may in fact be 9.14 3CO RI 638 (Issued September 1914; 3rd Company, Royal Irish Regt, rack No 638).

The Royal Irish Regiment had a very active WW1 record - see Royal Irish Regiment - Forces War Records

This rifle has fresh shrapnel damage; I can't conceive of anything else causing that appearance. Thus it was definitely on the front line. But I reckon the report that it was owned by a dead soldier "who was still holding the carbine in his hands" is a tall story - surely it have been sent flying by the impact.

To me it looks totally honest and if I were you, I'd buy it.
Rob

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Originally Posted by RobD

sent flying by the impact.

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I agree on the story being a story. But shrapnel will kill for quite a distance without the explosion being right beside the victim. I've seen quite a few examples. This could have been quite a distance from the burst and still had that effect on the wood. We'll never know for sure. I'd love to have it as well.

I have a MkI type 2 P1888 bayonet marked:
M
4.CT
120
If it's any help.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Rewording my query: is there any other possibility for COR as a unit/regimental abbreviation on a pre-1918 SMLE, other then Connaught Rangers?

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The most likely answer would be that the 'C' is a worn/poorly stamped 'G', which would fit the 3rd battalion of the Gordon Highlanders to a tee. They spent the war in Aberdeen training replacement drafts.

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Originally Posted by RobD

Have you seen a picture of the disc? I suspect the person has transcribed wrongly,

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So do I. I have not contacted the seller, as I did not wish to do anything that might alert others and drive the price up. I cannot buy it myself, as I am a shooter, not a collector, and returning this rifle to a proper shootable configuration would destroy the historical aspect.

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Originally Posted by jrhead75

The most likely answer would be that the 'C' is a worn/poorly stamped 'G', which would fit the 3rd battalion of the Gordon Highlanders to a tee.

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I agree - I cannot find anything else that is plausible.

This rifle was probably a 1914 or 1915 capture. After 1915 these rifles are rarely seen in photos and I suspect from the German side the novelty would have worn off by then. Could be that the rifle was issued to the 3rd Connaught Rangers and then either went to the front with a draft from that battalion (if drafts were sent) or was sent up if and when the 3rd Battalion was perhaps re-armed with older rifles temporarily, or perhaps even had to give up many or all of their rifles to replace losses at the front. We often see photos of Territorials or New Army men with CLLE's for example, so rifles were in short supply early in the war.

Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised if the story is true; the rifle may have been struck by shrapnel as it lay on the ground in the hands of the soldier, by then possibly dead. Men under bombardment have been known to hang onto anything close by very tightly, and "death grips" are similar.

1st Connaughts absorbed what was left of the 2nd Connaughts in 1914. The 1st Connaughts must have lost 100% to 200% of their strength before leaving France in December 1915. Fought in Ferozepore Brigade, Lahore Division, Indian Army Corps.

Has this rifle sold yet?

Ende 28.04.2014 11:58:36 MEZ or... End 28.04.2014 11:58:36 CET So you still have time to bid...they're probably all set to snipe in the last 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Anzac15

Wonder what that translates to American dollars....

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Sit quite still before you read this...

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4881520

The history of such battle damaged rifles always interests me as to how they survived in seemingly untouched condition after all they were just "tools" back in the day, not held in the reverence as they are today. Why weren't they scrapped and why would something which almost certainly marked the death of someone be preserved???

Good point there Chosenman. We would occasionally get these battle damaged rifles back from 'warmer climes' through the system at work including several that had been used to fight off an ambush and the ambushers eventually murdered the group of NATO/UN soldiers (I'll leave it at that.....) I asked the unit/regiment museum if they wanted one or two of them plus a couple of the murder weapons to preserve for posterity. Not for show or display but in many years to come, after a few decades in a back store that would be quite historic artefacts.

A couple of days later after some ongoing dfiscussions the answer came back to the effect '........ Nope......, let bygones be bygones without the macabre reminders of history.....' So I supervised them all getting the chop with the hot-axe and only kept a couple of bayonets

Fellow Milsurpers as you are probably well aware Anzac Day was remembered recently.
I watched an interview with an Irish historian on our national tv channel.
He stated that the Connaught Rangers had fought along side the Anzacs at Lone Pine.
Could this be true? I haven't heard of this before

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Good point there Chosenman. We would occasionally get these battle damaged rifles back from 'warmer climes' through the system at work including several that had been used to fight off an ambush and the ambushers eventually murdered the group of NATO/UN soldiers (I'll leave it at that.....) I asked the unit/regiment museum if they wanted one or two of them plus a couple of the murder weapons to preserve for posterity. Not for show or display but in many years to come, after a few decades in a back store that would be quite historic artefacts.

A couple of days later after some ongoing dfiscussions the answer came back to the effect '........ Nope......, let bygones be bygones without the macabre reminders of history.....' So I supervised them all getting the chop with the hot-axe and only kept a couple of bayonets

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You showed me those rifles Peter and I'll never forget it. I was based quite near where that incident took place and every time we went passed that place, I would always remember them. I'm in agreement that possibly in years to come their story will obscure into history with no tangible evidence. At least if there was a reminder, macabre as it may be, it would be real evidence to go with their story and not just another tale in a book from a long forgotten war. It's like the battle damaged rifle in the SASC, that is a real tangible link to an actual incident, there is only that link to the story, had it been scrapped or repaired, it's doubtful his story would have been told and if it was, I doubt it would have the same impact on people.