Lee enfield no4 mk1/3 US Property

Hi,
Just recieved a sporter lee enfield no4 mk1/3 Savage US property.
Rifle has been FTR in 53. The barrel has 5 grooves and different serial, other than that, the trigger group obviously has been moved to a MK2. The mag is also matched serial but instead of a C its a 0 (error??). Id like to get more inputs or info about the rifle.
First, Id like to know how many no4 mk1 Savage has been mk1/3 ? Any other info that stamps brings up ?
Another thing, I also have a mk1/2 Maltby and wondering whats the difference between mk1/2 and mk1/3 ?
I plan to restore the rifle and bring her back to full military configuration. I hope she's a good potential for being restored ??

Again, thanks for your inputs


Attachment 56126Attachment 56127Attachment 56128Attachment 56129Attachment 56130Attachment 56131Attachment 56132Attachment 56133

Difference between a Mk 1/2 and a Mk 1/3 lies in the method of bolt head release.

The Mk 1/2 were converted from Mk 1 - bolt head release via catch behind charger bridge

The Mk 1/3 were converted from Mk 1* - bolt head release via cut-out section in track closer to chamber.

I am not being critical but are those vice marks in pic 3.:confused:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I am not being critical but are those vice marks in pic 3.:confused:

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Where exactly ?? Not sure what you mean by ''vice marks''

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Originally Posted by billy67

Where exactly ?? Not sure what you mean by ''vice marks''

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the vertical striations/indents running along the ridge directly below the ejector screw in pic 1 & 3

I would say yes they are, but what can you expect from an old War Horse & when they FTRed em it was`nt to pretty em up !................

Yes, vice marks, the military didn't do those though.

ok thanks and what should I expect from those vice marks ? what this it mean ? Rifle is not shootable ? there is nothing to do with ? Restorable but just as a wall hanger ??
I like to shoot all my rifles, if this one is not safe, guess, I won't pput times and money on it..

Rifle should be OK, it doesn't take much pressure to get vice marks on anything held in the jaws without the guards so I wouldn't worry too much as long as there are no other major marks or signs of abuse.

Just damaged the finish I should think...

Depending on the parts needed for restoration Springfield Sporters is a good source for Savage No 4 parts.

From what I can see, I don`t see any reason not to shoot it !................Thats what FTR stands for FacTory Repair !................

Factory Through Repair ...

I've got plenty of Savage butts here, if that beech one needs replacing. As to the numbers of distinctly Savage ones that were converted, I doubt the system discriminated between them.

Neat how the number changed from a C to a 0 on the mag bottom.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Factory Through Repair ...

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I thought the "T" was for "Thorough". Lithgow's museum seems to as well -

Attachment 56148

Seems more grammatical than "Through." I suppose they used to be the same word - as seen in archaic "thoroughfare" and modern "throughway" (spelled "Thruway" in backwaters like New York).

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

I've got plenty of Savage butts here, if that beech one needs replacing. As to the numbers of distinctly Savage ones that were converted, I doubt the system discriminated between them.

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Rifle came with a unissued wood set. the forend has the Ishapore screw on so its an Indian wood. Very nice grain but not sure whether its a good match with that rifle.. I will keep your offers in mind.. I might look for another complete wood set.

thanks

I've seen many rifles out of British service with the identical type vice marks, usually on the wood. I wouldn't say they weren't done in military service. I even have a TSMG buttstock here with the British sling swivel modification and guess what? It's got those very same vice marks on it.

Something Id like to understand. Rifle has been FTR in 53 and the barrel doesnt have same serial number but has 41 stamp on. I have another rifle FTR, my Mk1/2 in 53 and barrell has the appropriate P53 dated on. What does that mean ?

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

I thought the "T" was for "Thorough".

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I too have seen both spellings.

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Originally Posted by billy67

Something Id like to understand. Rifle has been FTR in 53 and the barrel doesnt have same serial number but has 41 stamp on. I have another rifle FTR, my Mk1/2 in 53 and barrell has the appropriate P53 dated on. What does that mean ?

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It probably just means that it's been rebarreled with a take-off barrel while in civilian hands. I doubt very much that it came out of FTR with a mismatched barrel.

The reason I remarked about the vice marks is I am pretty sure if an Armourer either in the British services or Australian caused these through neglect to protect the jaws they may have found a pineapple inserted leaf end first (so you cannot pull the inserted object out) for abuse of a weapon, as they would have had all the good stuff to hold the action firm for a re-barrel I meant nothing insidious by my obs.

The T in FTR is indeed thorough.

I don't see the vice marks as detrimental. They are just a fact of life of weapons used in service in wartime and elsewhere.

I just see them as an indication that in its past life, it has been through the hands of a total butcher. The sad thing about vice marks is that if the bloke had/has a vice then it would have taken an extra millisecond to just put the alloy vice clamps in place................

Hi,
an update about my mk1/3. Being working on the wood set in order to make it fit together. Forend was unfinished and it was a little pain in the butt to fix the forend cap witht the cross pins. Even the brass butt plate needed some time to install. anyway, so far rifle looks that way. Its temporary, I still need to work on the wood set in order to make it a better match colour

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img_0827-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img_0828-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img_0829-1.jpg

The "P53" is probably F53 which should be a "no4 mk2" 5 groove military barrel, quite usual to be on a FTR'd gun I would assume. It maybe that the 41 is a barrel from mil surplus, in NZ that was common to import 10 barrels and then select the best ones for target use and repalce them every year, hugely wasteful....

Oh or the P53 is P58 and its a Pakistani barrel, (I have some p58 pakistani parts) I'd assume there would be pakistani proof marks?

I don't remember seeing that engraved horizontal line before.

Looks like that's where they linished out Savage and the mark and model.

That's correct Bar. Never delete the old markings, always bar through. Looks like the engraver at Fazakerley was particularly enthusiastic on that particular day as he's done a decent job, a bit of depth to the engraving and a new or sharp cutter by the looks of it. As opposed to the usual #scratchy pen' type of etching we usually see from Fazakerley.

The P prefix is a regular feature of Fazakerley production and sometimes features in their 'lost' number re-numbering system such as a BSA one that I know of, FTR'd at Fazakerley now numbered 53P 10385

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Looks like that's where they linished out Savage and the mark and model.

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Yes, I see that now that I look at the detailed photos! ;)

Peter makes a valuable point about the "barred out" markings.

In Commonwealth service, it is standard practice to cancel a marking (serial number, designation, etc.) by engraving a one or two fine(ish) lines through the text, instead of scrubbing / machining it off completely.

The reason is so that the ABSOLUTE history of the accountable component, in this case, the receiver or body, can be tracked.

This happens a LOT with machine-gun barrels, for instance when they are down-graded from "live-firing" to "blank-firing" because of throat erosion, muzzle damage, fail accuracy test, etc. Sometimes you will see "live" MG barrels with a number barred out and a new one engraved. This usually indicates that the BODY of the MG has either failed a major inspection and been scrapped as "un-repairable" of been "lost" in action /on exercise" etc.. And then there are “operational incidents” on the two-way rifle range……….

MGs and all manner of other weapons and expensive equipment have been known to fall out of helicopters and over the sides of ships and boats of all sizes, get smashed up in vehicle accidents or burnt in warehouse fires etc., hence "orphan" parts.

Thus, the need to re-number "key components" as they are "recycled", but still be able to read the previous number(s): all part of the procedure of "tracking" critical / accountable items.

I changed the handguards for a more appropriated ones in walnut and has this \I/ stamp inside. Guess that stamp stand for Indian (Ishapore) ?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img_0913-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...img_0912-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by billy67

Guess that stamp stand for Indian (Ishapore) ?

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Can you not show us a pic?

Rifle is all screwed tight and didnt take a pic but its something just like this:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Arrowpng-1.jpg

Is that what you have then? The first stamp there?

That's now a nice looking No4. Have you shot it post refurb?