Springfield Trapdoor Bannerman Special - Might be a Shooter

So I this little mutt has only been in my hands since last night. However I'm beginning to think she is a shooter due to condition of action and barrel.
Action locks-up tight. No wiggle in the lock either open or closed. Firing pin is free, and no sign of strain or cracks anywhere in the trapdoor joint.
Trigger wiggles front-to-back a little (normal ?).
Best part of the mechanics is inside the barrel looks like a mirror, and rifling is very nice.

I'm trying to understand more about this rifle, and it's quirks.
If you know anything about these oddball parts, how to check for issues, or what I should do next, please leave a comment.
Thanks!

Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)
Caliber: unknown
Action Type: Single Shot Trapdoor
Markings:
Large "L" and "15" stamped on top of the receiver.
The barrel at the 12 o'clock position, near the receiver is marked "A"
The barrel at the 6 o'clock position, near the reciever is marked "P Y S" or "P V S" with a strange symbol near the P
The barrel ahead of the trap door is stamped with “V” over “P”, an eagle head, and another “P”
Bottom of receiver is marked "A" and what looks like a metal plug.
The Left side of the receiver is stamped “N.J”.
The trapdoor is stamped “US / SPRINGFIELD / 1873”
Behind the trap door on the receiver is the serial number “479952”.
The lock plate is marked with a single "C”.
The top of the buttplate is stamped “U.S.”.
The barrel bands are both marked with a “U”.
Barrel Length: Unknown
Sights / Optics: Buckhorn rear sight and fixed post front sight.
Stock Configuration & Condition:
Type of Finish: Possibly bright
Finish Originality: Unknown.
Bore Condition: The bore is shiny and the rifling is worn but is still serviceable. There is no rust or erosion.
Overall Condition: The Screw heads are serviceable with only slight disfiguration. The markings are faint in some areas and strong in others.
Mechanics: The action functions correctly, and locks-up tight with no wiggle. Have not fired this rifle.

Issues -
Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction.
The trigger guard was removed, and an odd sling mount was installed at some point.

Tons of pics incoming!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9i2v6bcv-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sie5rpdq-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mdl0xhau-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpse4ce-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsebe6-1.jpg

Looks like a spoon-shaped spring. What is this?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dxwj94is-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fgcwqgkh-1.jpg

Perhaps this was originally a bright finish trap door.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...x5culuvl-1.jpg

Barrel marking near receiver
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...czzygil7-1.jpg

Left side of receiver
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...u8ugvzno-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boqrbvvu-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...il3amwa9-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ihmafjez-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yqiradgy-1.jpg

Almost the entire length of barrel, which was hidden behind stock, has a bright finish.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mqchdcoo-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...crza2pym-1.jpg

Someone tried to hold stock together with two small nails. Rifle was a decoration for years.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vxmhgftj-1.jpg

Notice gap on the rear base of trigger guard due to after-thought sling mount.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mo8iujvc-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bjukyhtw-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rqqgycgs-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mosfuyn5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b6iemsd5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...qw9fxvu3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oaohugdk-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oyajz2o0-1.jpg

Haven't cleaned the breach or barrel yet.
Looks crisp and undamaged.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...26860ee2-1.jpg

The only marking on the Lock plate "C"
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsaad0-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b6ia8zne-1.jpg

Serial number would appear to be too high for a Bannerman.

"Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)"

Well it seems to be the

US
Model
1878

- you can just make out the marking on the block! ´See Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield" p.158.

Serial number is 479952
- produced in 1890
1889 ended at 470246
1890 ended at 502492
so linear interpolation suggest a date of manufacture March-April 1890.

BUT this number would have been a Model 1884, and the Buffington sight had long been introduced (1885).
So I suspect this is some kind of mixture.

Maybe a real Trapdoor expert can say something about the markings?

P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP) must be so that it is the right way up when the rifle is racked.

P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place.

P.P.P.S: Pages183-185 of Frasca/Hill list typical points to be checked on dubious Springfields. Note the 1890 "Lovell Specials" - that may be what you have acquired.

I would not be bothered by all this if the rifle is a good shooter. However, should you one day be inclined to pay serious money for a supposedly original Trapdoor, get the book first!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

"Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)"

Well it seems to be the

US
Model
1878

- you can just make out the marking on the block! ´See Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield" p.158.

Serial number is 479952
- produced in 1890
1889 ended at 470246
1890 ended at 502492
so linear interpolation suggest a date of manufacture March-April 1890.

BUT this number would have been a Model 1884, and the Buffington sight had long been introduced (1885).
So I suspect this is some kind of mixture.

Maybe a real Trapdoor expert can say something about the markings?

P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP) must be so that it is the right way up when the rifle is racked.

P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place.

P.P.P.S: Pages183-185 of Frasca/Hill list typical points to be checked on dubious Springfields. Note the 1890 "Lovell Specials" - that may be what you have acquired.

I would not be bothered by all this if the rifle is a good shooter. However, should you one day be inclined to pay serious money for a supposedly original Trapdoor, get the book first!

---

What a great response! Thanks so much!

"1890 Lovell Specials" - awesome, now I have another lead to hunt down on the internet :)
"Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield"" - looking for this book as we speak. thanks.
"P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP)" - Thanks for this. Oops.
"P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place." - ahh, got it.

This particular rifle was purchased for very little money, from a friend of a friend. I figured I couldn't go wrong.
In fact, if this can be shot (after much research, and verification by a gunsmith) I'll see the purchase as a windfall.
Prefer shooting a "beater" to wear-out, and learn about Springfield Trapdoors. Playing with, researching, and hopefully one day shooting this rifle will surely get me hooked on Springfield Trapdoors, and also motivate me to get a 45-70 reloading setup. Once the 45-70 foundation is in place, I'm going to want an original Trapdoor. No doubt about it.
My father in law has a really nice, all original Trapdoor which was gifted to him by a close family friend, and former WWII Army Colonel. Makes me wanna fly out to see the in-laws ASAP! =P

Additional characteristics of the gun:
- Hammer/Action only has 2 clicks. Half-cock, and Full-cock.

edit - Wow, best price for the two "Frasca/Hill, The 45-70 Springfield" books is $120?!?
Books

"Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction."


Since there are quite a few "duffle-cut" milsurp bringback rifles in the US, the rejoining of cut stocks has been handled more than once in the Restorer's forum - dig around a bit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

"Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction."


Since there are quite a few "duffle-cut" milsurp bringback rifles in the US, the rejoining of cut stocks has been handled more than once in the Restorer's forum - dig around a bit!

---

You know i searched there really quick, during work, to see if I could find a good example, but didn't see anything.
Will dig a little deeper. Thanks!

Found this great "duffle cut" fix thread:
Milsurps Knowledge Library - Repairing a K98k duffle cut

"- Wow, best price for the two "Frasca/Hill, The 45-70 Springfield" books is $120?!? "

Grit your teeth and get'em. They're not going to get cheaper.

As to your "duffle-cut" stock. In most cases, the perpetrator was bright enough to make the cut underneath the band, so that it would be hidden after re-assembly. In this case, this rifle suffered at the hands of a real Bubba.

Don't worry, it can be fixed:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ghlight=Monkey

Encouraging?

No such thing as a M1878 Trapdoor. The block is actually marked 1873 ..... the later M73 blocks were interchangeable with the M84 blocks, and were installed until they ran out of them. The receiver is actually a M84 receiver. The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side ).

"The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side )."
Agreed. See Frasca/Hill p.84.


"The block is actually marke"d 1873"
You may well be right, but...


1) The last figure could be a 3" or an 8. Perhaps dttuner can clarify this? I thought it was an 8.

2) I am aware that there was no such thing as an "official" Model 1878. But, as the authors point out, there were numerous in-between versions.
On the page I cited the 4th breech block from the left appears to be marked US Model 1878. Maybe it's just my poor eyesight?
This version/edition/variation, call it what you like if you don't like the word Model - although that is what is stamped on it - has the rounded shoulder of the 1884 version. The versions clearly marked 1873 all have square shoulders.

3) In any case, the rifle appears to be a mixture. The stock appears to be made for a rifle with screw-clamp bands, hence the lack of band springs.

4) As the unfortunate object is way off being a "correct" collector's item, surely dttuner's first priority is to get it going as a shooter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

"The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side )."
Agreed. See Frasca/Hill p.84.


"The block is actually marke"d 1873"
You may well be right, but...


1) The last figure could be a 3" or an 8. Perhaps dttuner can clarify this? I thought it was an 8.

2) I am aware that there was no such thing as an "official" Model 1878. But, as the authors point out, there were numerous in-between versions.
On the page I cited the 4th breech block from the left appears to be marked US Model 1878. Maybe it's just my poor eyesight?
This version/edition/variation, call it what you like if you don't like the word Model - although that is what is stamped on it - has the rounded shoulder of the 1884 version. The versions clearly marked 1873 all have square shoulders.

3) In any case, the rifle appears to be a mixture. The stock appears to be made for a rifle with screw-clamp bands, hence the lack of band springs.

4) As the unfortunate object is way off being a "correct" collector's item, surely dttuner's first priority is to get it going as a shooter?

---

It looks like an "1873" to me. Although the "18" is basically worn off.

The band spring slots have been filled-in and refinished, however they are also in the wrong place for these barrel bands.
Either the stock is all wrong, or the barrel bands are wrong. Can't say.

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m1903rifle

..... the later M73 blocks were interchangeable with the M84 blocks, and were installed until they ran out of them. The receiver is actually a M84 receiver.

---

Thanks for this information!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m1903rifle

The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side ).

---

Cool, thanks!


Additional marking -
- Under the stock, there is a line on receiver and barrel which line-up (surely for barrel>receiver mounting reference), with a small "D" next to it.

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

Just noticed on the Lock plate, there's an "O" to the right of the "C".
See it?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsaad0-1.jpg

Sorry for the "bump", but there are a lot of problems with the answers given so far.

Late 1873 blocks DO have the rounded shoulders.

There is no quibbling/iffiness/maybe/"transition", etc. re "1878" blocks. NO such marking exists - it is ALWAYS a too-deep "3".

The stock is not even for a .45-70! The spoon (rod spring) was discontinued following the last of the .50-70 arms - the Model 1870 - BUT - NO "trapdoor" was ever made without band-springs. So, the stock is even earlier, most likely from a "type 1" M1863 muzzle-loading musket.

The lockplate is from a musket or a .50-70 - not a .45-70. It probably came with the stock.

The buttplate is from a Model 1877 carbine.



Collector value is just about zero - but the fun quotient is unlimited. I hope it shoots well!

Best wishes.

NJ New Jersey ownership.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dick Hosmer

Sorry for the "bump", but there are a lot of problems with the answers given so far.

Late 1873 blocks DO have the rounded shoulders.

There is no quibbling/iffiness/maybe/"transition", etc. re "1878" blocks. NO such marking exists - it is ALWAYS a too-deep "3".

The stock is not even for a .45-70! The spoon (rod spring) was discontinued following the last of the .50-70 arms - the Model 1870 - BUT - NO "trapdoor" was ever made without band-springs. So, the stock is even earlier, most likely from a "type 1" M1863 muzzle-loading musket.

The lockplate is from a musket or a .50-70 - not a .45-70. It probably came with the stock.

The buttplate is from a Model 1877 carbine.



Collector value is just about zero - but the fun quotient is unlimited. I hope it shoots well!

Best wishes.

---

I love it when an authority comes up to clarify. Nothing like going to the source to sort this out...Thank Dick!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dttuner

Looks crisp and undamaged.

---

Pardon me for interfering, but at the picture of the chamber at 9:00 from where what I believe the extractor to be is that a crack at the chamber mouth? This is just an observation, I was just studying the photos to learn how to take better pictures myself, and it looks like that radius has a pie shaped chip. I hope I am wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doco overboard

Pardon me for interfering, but at the picture of the chamber at 9:00 from where what I believe the extractor to be is that a crack at the chamber mouth? This is just an observation, I was just studying the photos to learn how to take better pictures myself, and it looks like that radius has a pie shaped chip. I hope I am wrong.

---

Good eye. Seems that was just a fiber:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zwnarjaz-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ydsgtxbm-1.jpg

Sorry to bring this back from the dead.

Just wanted to let the helpful folks who replied to this thread know that I'm
selling this rifle on the classifieds section.

Thanks!

You have the second NJ marked trapdoor that I have seen, mine being the other. Mine is a 1890 production also and the block is marked 1884.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1801XL-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1802XL-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1811XL-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1812XL-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1806XL-1.jpg

The band has been turned right side up since this picture was taken.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...G_1798XL-1.jpg

'highpower3006' - Your nice looking New Jersey marked 'trapdoor' seems to have the wrong rear barrel-band on it.

The "U" on the band is on the correct side for a Springfield arm, but , the open-end should point toward the muzzle. Also, there should be a groove across the top of the band so that the 'Buffington' rear-sight leaf can lie perfectly flat.

FWIW - I suspect that may be a Remington barrel-band (rolling-block or Remington-Lee) on your Springfield. Remington barrel-bands had the "U" on the left-side.